A grower here in GA where trees appear to be relatively cheap (if you can still find a place that sells 'em) is selling 2" yellowwoods for $110. I know this because I almost bought one this past season. I don't know about those other trees. Just thought I'd give you that as a comparison.

Caliper cost has several variables, but with the information given in the OP, I'd go down in caliper and take the $ savings and the likelihood of better establishment.

Dan

See, I had someone else mention if you go to the smaller size the plants may estalbish quicker.

That goes against what the nursery says. This is probably the premiere nursery in WI...plus the guy that told me to go to 2" teaches at the local university. Its probably all sujective and in the end they are in the business to make money I guess.

Harris, Clark and Matheny Arboriculture 3rd Ed., pg 163:

"Following planting, it is clear that the larger the tree is at planting the longer the establishment period" [emphasis in original] and the rest of the para discusses why.

That is: not subjective at all.

HTH.

Dan

I'm assuming you had to type that but if your able to copy paste I'd be interested to read on.

I tried to search for the text on Amazon...but its limited.

I'm surprised your nursery holds a different opinion as it clearly goes against accepted horticultural/arboricultural wisdom.

They have a financial interest in selling the highest dollar product. Especially in our new economic regime.

Dan

To Dan and GG:

Preface your accurate statements with "B&B transplanted trees" and I'm in agreement. I am assuming that is all whaas is finding in WI to purchase.

The argument doesn't hold water if one is speaking about container grown plants (especially Rootmaker and RPM produced specimens) where essentially no roots are lost in the transition from purveyor to purchaser. It is becoming less of an issue with field grown plants when the liners are produced with this method.

Those are the questions that I'd be asking: where do you get your liners, and how were they produced? Show me the root flare on the trunk! Species that were formerly considered poor risks in field nursery production are far more common and transplant at far higher success rates than in the past, simply due to lining out youngsters that have higher quality/density of roots under them.

Yes these would be B&B transplanted trees. They would be dug up from the local field and planted in my soil within 1 week...sometime in mid-late April.

By the way the nursery said they really don't "buy" the quicker to establish because they obtain a wider and deeper rootball depending on the size of the tree. They said its much tougher to argue when your talking about trees 2.5" caliper or less.

They were in agreement in ease of handling and ease of planting as an advantage of the smaller caliper trees. But again they said your not going to see much of a difference between a 1.5" and 2" caliper tree.

In the end I'm still going with the 1.5" caliper if I can get them.

"By the way the nursery said they really don't "buy" the quicker to establish because they obtain a wider and deeper rootball depending on the size of the tree."

Take a look at their rootballs, and I'll bet you'll see why their position doesn't totally match reality. It is true that larger rootballs lead to quicker establishment, but it's highly unlikely that the rootballs on their larger trees are truly proportional to the increased size (specifically diameter) of the larger tree's potential rootzone. Unless their smaller trees have undersized rootballs and their larger trees have much-greater-than-industry-standard size rootballs, their argument appears to fall a little short.

A little instant gratification may well be worth spending a few extra bucks and suffering a little growth rate up front, but use those as reasons to buy bigger stock and don't let the nursery shade reality to entice you to spend more money.

My comment disappeared, but to VV: the same holds for containerized as well.

Dan

Yeah I guess we'd have to take a look at the the proportions to really see which arguement holds true.

They pulled out a chart based on height of multi-stem (clump)and caliper of the single trunk trees.

As you go up in size the wider and deeper the hole required.
Going off memory...the 1.5" required a 32"W x 18"D hole. The 2" required a 38" x 21" hole. The width was stated as a "minimum".

My goals right now...budget and get healthy trees. Size is third in the hiearchy.

By the way, good info posted here.

if a plant... which a shrub is... lol .. is twice as big below as above.. and you have a 5 foot 2 inch caliper tree ... that would mean.. for this example ... that he digs a 2 to 3 foot ball ... that you are cutting off about 6 to 8 feet of roots ... this is a picture for your head to wrap around.. not science ....

and therein lies.. lays.. where the issue of establishment is .... how long will it take the plant .... to re-establish its root mass to be back to square one ... mother may i take 3 steps back???

and i dont see what difference it makes.. potted or balled ... a vast majority of potted is stock is 3 to 5 years post PROPER potting ... i usually have to do more root pruning on a potted specimen.. than on a ball and burlap .. which has already been root pruned ...

and as to your local nursery guy ... a vast majority of these peeps.. God bless them ... are old school ... and they do things.. and get away with things based on decades of experience.. besides the fact they are local ... which is always a plus ....

one of the problems with the WWWeb is that there are sooo mannnyyy opinions.. so much learning.. so much state of the art .... which some times become crippling ...

if your local guy has been at it for decades ... if he runs a top of the line nursery .. and if he warranties his product... and you have a working relationship with him .... and the stock make your toes tingle... and the budget constraints are met .... really??? .. who cares what we think ...

all the info you get here helps you make a decision ... but bottom line.. there are thousands of ways to do whatever you want .... just do whatever makes you happy ...

all that said.. why does the plant have to sit around for a week before planting.. the hole can be dug weeks in advance.. you schedule him to dig it on a friday .. and you pick it up and plant it on saturday .... cut your odds, eh???

as always.. good luck

ken

PS: and it goes without saying for the hundredth time.. i would go with the $10 mail ordered twig.. and be happy as a lark ..... oops.. i did say it again ... lol ...

"...the same holds for containerized as well."

...especially for larger stock (which is not as commonly found container grown anyway).

Your nursery's opinion really doesn't hold water :-) The larger the B&B tree, the smaller the percentage of the rootball is dug to make the transition. Ken points it out quite clearly. If you review the link, if only 50% or so of the original root mass is present after digging, it will take time for the specimen to regenerate those roots.....based roughly on the rule of thumb outlined above. Until the roots are regenerated in sufficient quantity/extension to support the current size of the tree, you can expect minimal top growth. Smaller, younger trees will have less of a root spread and can be expected to retain more of the original root system after digging, therefore resulting in less time to establish. Planted side by side, the smaller selection of the same species will typically outgrow a larger specimen, all other factors being equal.

But if you are weighing the value between 1.5 and 2" caliper, I'd expect the differences in time to establish to be minor, however I would still opt for the smaller size based on other factors, price being one.

And I'd agree with including container grown stock within these same parameters. Often there other very sound reasons why larger container stock will take longer to establish as well, including a potentially compromised root system that may never establish correctly.

It's all in the roots as VV has said. He mentions "containers for production." He's also dead bullet on regarding the best production/products in use: Rootmaker & RPM, upgrading from cell to cell. Here are roots formed using Rootmaker cells for various cuttings - the media varies but is mainly derived from enormous piles of free composted leaves delivered right to the door or my friend's nursery:

Acer palmatum mixed cultivars (photo from 5/7 - Ohio zone 5); Dip n' Grow 1/10; 1/2 perlite appx.; microhaize gel dip;:
{{gwi:491994}}

My friend says:
The last couple years I've been using RMII-18,
18-Cell Trays 25 cu. in.(3.125" x 3.125" x 4")
from Rootmaker for my cuttings. I really believe that
good quality starts with good roots.

Also his other pots (round) he paints the insides with 'Copper Shield' with an airgun...
"Line up the pot stick the gun in the pot and give it a quick blast. You can thin the paint some with paint thinner but not to much. I have found that it works better if it has thicker coat. I've been using some of these same pots for over ten years."
->This keeps roots from circling in circular pots. They grow instead as if in rootmaker cells with all roots emerging straight down.From Rootmaker to a 2-gallon pot, typically for his Green Giant's (it's all dependent on the quality of the root system and the rate of growth of what you're propagating... when deciding which size pot to grade up, to. He, as I mention, uses circular pots instead of using the complete line of Rootmaker types of up-sizing.

Random Photos:

Mist Bench - 30 seconds every half hour for this environment:
{{gwi:491997}}

2 feet of rock beneath pots for drainage. Pots fit within pots; sales/holding year-round.
{{gwi:492000}}

Cuttings from 4-22: He never uses any supplemental heat. These Left to Right are:
Picea orientalis (cultivar) Oriental Spruce
Tsuga canadensis (cultivar) Eastern Hemlock/Looks more like Juniper, actually.
Taxus ssp. (cultivar) Yew
More Taxus, last row;

{{gwi:492004}}

---> I just thought I'd continue this "well-rooted" discussion with some knowledge I know and am able to share.

Dax

Hmmm, got my final quote. Given the discussion would you pay the difference to go from 1.5" to 1.75"?

Aesculus 'Homestead' - $22 upcharge (questionable)
Acer triflorum - $12 upcharge (I say go to 1.75")
Cladrastis kentukea - $35 upcharge (I say stay at 1.5")

I'd want to see the individual trees in question before I made a decision :-) There should be minimal difference in height/canopy size with only a quarter inch caliper difference so once again I'd most likely opt for the smaller/less expensive choice. But I'd still wanna see the tree before making a choice.

I know exactly what your saying...I am getting pictures. They make note of what specific requirments you have.

For example my requests:
Straight main trunk/centeral leader
Fairly symmetrical habit/branching off main trunk
Limited v-crotches
Visible root flare

As a side note this nursery usually has the best quality specimans of any trees....I'm just picky.

Since these specific trees have very limited inventory, they don't dig X amount and put them in the holding yard.

FWIW, I would say it depend on the growth rate. Slow growing, go large, as the small one won't catch up to a larger one during the establishment period. Medium growth rate, then not as clear, just depends on your goals/preferences. Fast, go smaller. Do a search on my user name and ginkgo, as I put forth an argument some time back using ginkgo as an example of why to go large with a slow growing species that may be of interest to you. Just the same in your case your not talking about big difference in caliper.

Arktrees

Just had a conversation with some planners today about their city's code that is being re-done, and the three of us foresters in the room all recommended lowering the minimum caliper on the landscape requirements, as the smaller tree will catch up to the larger one after several years, and survivorship is more likely with the smaller caliper.

And what others said above - 1/4" isn't much of a difference at all.

Dan

Well, I hope those planners take that advice to heart. And, I hope you take a second gander at high quality container production using RPM and Rootmaker methods (and the like) and see if you'd like to amend the statement that you made that establishment time from this type of container production would be no different than with B&B transplantation.

It just isn't so.

I'm fine with my text in this thread. Containerization is the way we are going here for numerous reasons.

And if you have a large tree that sat in a can for a long time, there is a good chance it won't leap out of the ground and become a second Eden; this is the reason why you inspect your shipments in the field and there are guidelines for inspecting shipments to determine quality. When I had my business I wasn't afraid to send shipments back and a couple times doing that actually earns you respect and you get the best plants that way.

Dan