There was a huge Compton's oak in Va that was moved years ago, there's a video of it on You tube, it was moved several yards/miles not sure how far. I believe it is fine now, being several years ago, and I haven't heard about it not making it. There have been a few Live oaks moved with success in the past. I guess it depends on the company moving it knowing what they are doing. But you don't hear about any failures, if there had been some of them that croaked they likely don't make much announcement of that. Just adding that, I hope the tree does well, anyhow.

What about the taproot? That mature oak might not produce a new one.

"What about the taproot? That mature oak might not produce a new one."

As taprooted species mature, they become less and less dependent on their taproots (if they even fully developed in the first place). At that age/size, the tree is too large to gain much additional stability from a single large vertical root and would also have multiple deep moisture seeking roots other than a taproot. We also don't know how deep the rootball being moved is. It will (presumably) be irrigated for a number of years after moving.

taproots are a mythology ...

as far as i am concerned.. their primary purpose.. is to secure the acorn/seed to the soil ... long enough for it to spend the energy there.. to grow the first year ... after that.. its just another root ...

and that is based on the simple logic.. that otherwise... there would be no nursery trade on trees.. if the tap root could never be cut ...

but what do i know ..

ken

I think that tap roots rot away after a few centuries or so. It seems like every year, a few large massive oak trees get blown over by heavy winds that are preceded by a bunch or rain. They always have a large circumference rootball, but no tap root. I believe that tap roots are for young(er) trees.

That is interesting. I have never seen any massive oak blown over, but the only common species over here is quercus robur. They rather seem to desintegrate when getting old, losing limb after limb. It might be different with other oak species, especially from other subgroups of quercus. I have actually seen whole forests of planted spruce blow over and all that is left is some ancient oak trees that was there long before the spruces was planted around them.

I have seen both quercus nigra and quercus falcata exactly as devon described. The ground needs to be saturated followed by heavy winds. No taproots to be seen.

Now, I also have to say something about how deep their roots can go. I was on tour of fantastic caverns in Springfield, MO this past weekend. At one point in time, the landowner drilled a well down into the water supply under the cave. The owner was trying to avoid a pipe ram smack in the middle of the cave so he made measurements to miss the cavern and go 100% through the soil/rock. He miscalculated by 5' and drilled through the actual cave. About 95' below the surface we saw the pipe. It was accompanied by quercus alba roots growing along side it! They exited the roof of the cave and hung down a couple of feet beside the pipe. Pretty cool stuff :)

And that is obviously not the typical situation, nor rooting depth, of oak or any other species. In other words, do not equate what happens in these unusual situations, ie. pipe run down into a cave (and caves usually found in already-porous soils) with more typical situations. Oaks may be somewhat capable of deeper rooting than some other genera, but it's all relative, and largely dependent on soil characteristics.

+oM

I did not know I implied such. It is obviously an atypical situation but does show that rooting depth can vary based on specific circumstances (soil characteristics as you pointed out!).

IOW, don't throw blanket statements around like they are always 100% fact (not at anyone in particular). Such as the common misnomer that all oaks have taproots when in fact this is usually only the case while the tree is relatively young because as they age they eventually develop a lateral root system diminishing the tap root's importance.

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 9:16

I think oaks, as well as other taprooted/deep rooted trees, can and will send a relatively small number of large "sinker" roots as deep as they're capable of penetrating. Loose, moist, friable soil helps. However, the trees seem to do just fine on shallower soils as well, just not with as deep of a root system.

Rather than taproots, I think what you do see in older oaks is a half dozen or so very deep roots, like what you saw in the cave, but even there, the majority of the root system by weight and functionality probably still lies in the top 2' or so of soil. The sinker roots probably serve as a secondary water and nutrient source plus more firm anchorage, but are not vital to the tree's health.

There was a study I saw a while back, that showed that root-pruned white oaks (using a Rootmaker or similar type of tech) still managed to send several of these sinker roots down deep (as deep as that particular soil type allows) within a couple years of being transplanted into the ground. I wish I could relocate the article.

This post was edited by hairmetal4ever on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 9:19

What I can tell you is this - I have some Scarlet (Q. coccinea) and Swamp Chestnut (Q. michauxii) seedlings in Smart Pots.

Once the initial taproot was pruned, they usually branch into 2 taproots, but once those 2 new "taproots" are themselves root-pruned, they then send out many fine side feeder roots, but also several deep, thick roots that still go more down than out (I can see this by what grows out the bottom of the Smart Pot). So I think the "sinker" roots develop early on, esp if the taproot is damaged.

At least, unlike the people in TX and the Compton oak, they are having the sense to move it at the right time of year. It would make me nervous to move a patch of Rudbeckias during the middle of summer in Texas!

"There was a huge Compton's oak in Va that was moved years ago, there's a video of it on You tube, it was moved several yards/miles not sure how far."
Nope, that was in Texas. In mid July. LOL. Not surprisingly, it is now dying.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Cankor-threatens-League-City-s-historic-oak-5757624.php

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 10:16

"Nope, that was in Texas. In mid July. LOL. Not surprisingly, it is now dying.

I found a picture of the project manager (Mr. Derp)

Edit: That was an excellent link BTW. Hypoxylon canker was a major player in forest tree death here during/after the summers of 2011 and 2012. It is still easy to spot large deceased forest trees in the hills, many of them oaks and the majority of those belonging to the red oak group. I know I personally lost about a dozen southern red oaks in the 50-100 year old range in my small woods along with 3-4 post oaks in the same age range. One of the post oaks I lost had a 100'+ spread and was absolutely gorgeous orange red every fall.

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 10:47

On oaks, Hypoxylon (or Biscogniauxia as it has recently been reclassified) is basically something that takes advantage of dying trees or branches. It's more of an indicator of death and decline than a primary cause.

In that article about the Ghirardi Compton Oak, I find the claim that "the canker is showing signs of retreating, now affecting about 9 percent of the tree" to be very dubious. Once Hypoxylon invades the sapwood, there's no "retreat" - you can't un-rot the wood. More likely, they've been pruning out branches as they die, and that 9% represents the most recently-dead portion that hasn't been removed yet. It looks like a tree on its way out in this Sept. 2014 image:
{{gwi:459084}}

Compared to moving day (June 2012):

Although I can understand why it's sometimes tried with a tree that has some historical significance, I'd be surprised if the long-term success rate is very high on moving big, old trees such as these. Even if they were just digging the trench around it without lifting up the whole thing and plugging it into the ground again, that amount of root damage would be very risky.

This post was edited by saccharum on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 13:29

Thanks saccharum, i hadn't been able to find a recent picture to help illustrate my post. Indeed, it is almost certainly a goner.

FWIW, in the salubrious climate of the British Isles, Kew has actually found that tipping over huge mature trees and resetting them can actually help rejuvenate them. Even there they probably do it when they are not in the middle of their growth cycle.

Several of the trees that "survived" those summers look similar to that top pic in saccharum's post. On the bright side, I have seen a lot of woodpecker's in the area the last couple of years...

Davidrt28, as far as I can find, there was only one tree at Kew that was said to have been partially uprooted and resettled (during a major storm), and then unexpectedly improved. That inspired them to start doing treatments to reduce soil compaction around other trees, but they use an air spade rather than uprooting the trees. Some of their claims and practices sound questionable to me, but it's probably a topic for another thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kew Gardens - Turner's Oak

Thanks. I had read about that years ago and lazily refused to verify in google. I think at the time it happened, they said they would try it with other trees; maybe once they took into account the expense of bringing in big equipment they decided to try the air-spade things. After all, the huge tree spades could just compact the soil of other plants on their way into the gardens. What I disagree with is filling the holes back with organic material...but as you say, it's the topic for another thread. Kew is an incredible place but believe me I don't hold everything thing they do there up as an example; for one thign it's idiotic they killed their Chilean Wine Palm when they had a couple chances to just remove it from the Temperate House and plant it outside, where it had a good chance of surviving.
FWIW I've restored several rhododendrons to health by merely digging them up, and replanting with a few inches of soil underneath the rootball so they are now elevated.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 16:38

So the Ghirardi oak is in Texas? I should've looked up the location, I just remembered it being in Va, I just guessed at it by what I remembered. If it is a disease issue, you can't say it wouldn't be okay just with a move though. The disease kinda screws up the simply moving and relocating the tree.

That particular type of fungus (Hypoxylon, or Biscogniauxia) is not one that can take out a healthy oak. It's normally resident in the outer bark of most oak trees, and only invades into the inner bark and sapwood when the tree (or portion thereof) is severely stressed or dying for some other reason. It's a sign of a dead/dying tree stem, not a primary cause.