Thanks, Carla! Will go have a look.

The web address for the Vintage Gardens Newsletter -- Pruning Edition -- is below.

I was astonished to begin reading, only to find a description of what we have been
doing here, with our roses, for the past several years.

Only, WE stumbled our way into it through trial and error -- finding that the
conventional pruning techniques we'd learned in ARS-Land did NOT work for us.
By contrast, Gregg came to these techniques not ONLY from his own extensive
experience with all sorts of roses, but from RNRS reports and more.
Planting and watering are also discussed.
I've saved this file, and will be printing it as a handout for upcoming
pruning demonstrations.

These techniques may, or may not, work for you, but they're worth reading and
considering. There's a lot to be learned.

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: Vintage Gardens Newsletter

Thank you for sharing that. Now my next question is will anyone be following that advice?

Gregg speaks of what his personal experiences and preferences are on pruning, that being in CA. Pruning should be tailored to your likes and your climate, class of roses, etc. I particularly liked the bud eye pruning point and the 45 degree angle opinion.
Good info. on soil, watering and care of roses. An all around good read.

Carla

I also liked what he said about pruning in the middle of a bush.

will anyone be following that advice?

*** YES.

Jeri

I already have a great deal of respect for Gregg. When I read the newsletter it was like an affirmation for me to stop being so hard on myself at pruning time with over 1000 roses and tendonitis in both shoulders. I have suspected this for a long time that roses don't need to be quite so fussed over at pruning time.

Pam, My roses may have no other choice in their future but to accept what is. I can't keep up the pace.
I told this story once but my mother has a Cl. Etoile de Holland that I promise to bring home. It is old, I don't know the age. Survived on little rain and drought. It is doing okay.

Carla

To be honest, we have been "pruning" this way for some years.
Gregg came up with some refinements which I welcome -- but I already know that for the roses I grow, in the place that I grow them, this IS the best treatment.

We started this because we were faced with the imminent demise of several roses which had been faithfully pruned in the traditional manner.
It was terribly frustrating to see this, when we spent time finding old, neglected, never-pruned roses that were healthier than the ones we were "pampering."
In desperation, we threw up our hands and LEFT THEM ALONE.

The result has been heart-healing.
We're now at the point of eliminating the last of the truncated canes that never grew again, from healthy roses that no longer need them.

Clair Martin, at the Huntington, reminded me to say that whatever pruning you're going to do, to Tea Roses and their close kin, DO NOT DO IT IN WINTER.
Do it when your weather is HOT.

So, for what pruning we DO we'll be trying some of those refinements Gregg recommended.
Now we're gonna work on training our roses to need less water.

Jeri

Jeri, I'm not sure who is training who.

My roses grow if they get what they want: they probably wish I'd hurry up and learn!

I really enjoyed the newsletter too, Carla, thank you.

Gean

Was the pruning test performed on Hybrid Teas or Old Garden Roses? I know Jeri mostly grows OGR, so I was wondering if we should follow this advice for HTs as well.

Regarding Huntington, Claire just sent out a letter asking for volunteers to help prune this week. They said new this year, they are pruning with hedge clippers.

Yes, Clair, having thought about the Vintage piece, is moving in that direction.
This is great, because I think he is doing it on moderns.
I heard from him just now, and he said they did two weeks work in a day.

I don't know what all Gregg experimented on.
In my garden, I have a mix of roses of all sorts, though most are OGRs.
There are Modern and Classic Shrub Roses, including Austins,
modern Large-Flowered Climbers, and species.
I have precisely two modern HTs:
Gardens Of The World and Baronne Edmund de Rothschild.

These two, growing side-by-side, are wildly different.
GOTW gets more new canes every year. It seems to want to carry 20-30 healthy canes.
I no longer argue with it. Only the occasional bit of dead growth is removed.
BEdR, by contrast, NEVER gets any new canes.
There again, for several years, only dead growth has been removed.

Both grow very tall, and bloom heavily. Neither is troubled by disease, which is why they are still here.
The deciding factor might be whether very tall, heavily-foliaged roses are what you want.
If you want your roses short and manicured, this technique might not be for you.

Jeri

OMG, hedge clippers. Per usual, I'm probably light years behind the times . . . Hedge clippers are now the preferred method for pruning roses?

Wow, thanks, everyone, for bringing this to our attention. I, too, like the idea of making a straight cut instead of pruning at a slant. I've also noticed that the stronger growth usually sprouts from the second bud below the cut. And I also try to prune lightly in winter, because I hate the look of the truncated can, once the new growth comes out at an angle; it isn't graceful. But sometimes you have to prune canes, for instance when you move a shrub. I am thinking of cutting the canes off Sparrieshoop right at the ground and let them come up anew. It hasn't looked right since I had to move it, almost 2 years ago.

I also like the idea of letting leaves return to the soil. Does everyone agree? It sure would be nice not to have to worry about getting every diseased leaf off the ground. A leaf with rust or blackspot, LET IT LIE below the plant? Of course we never get them all out between the under plantings, etc, but just leave them there, really? Have people been doing this and finding out that otherwise susceptible but healthy specimens are not worse off? Do they get rust or blackspot and then get better? When mine get better I think it because I painstakingly and laboriously removed every pathetic leaf. Would it have gotten just as well anyway?

Of course there are plenty of roses that resent pruning, so I agree with the general tone. But I'm interested in hearing about the exceptions. For instance, when I moved into this house there were quite a few roses here already and they were quite neglected. After nursing them along, and they weren't improving much at all, some I cut back severely (after the better part of a year of regular watering and light organic fertilizations to improve the root systems), I pruned them severely, right back to the bud union or the ground, and then they came back all healthy and vigorous. Is that what you all would do? Or an unhealthy-looking bush, would you just fertilize as usually and let it work out it's own problems?

It sounds like they are saying that with the RNRS study, they are just leaving diseased canes on the bush. They make no mention of removing it. It's hard to imagine that. Of course in the study they were probably dealing with perfectly healthy specimens that were nurtured ideally all along.

Aren't we still going to remove twiggy growth and old canes and shape them up a little? Aren't we still going to shorten the lateral canes on climbers? Don't you all suggest that we strip the leaves and spray, not with chemicals but with something organic?

And isn't it easier with the hybrid teas and floribundas, to cut away all the old leaves and start afresh?

It's interesting and I enjoyed Greg's writing style and informal tone, but it's so simple, I need more info. Or reassurance before I can change my style.

-Gala

Gala, the way I look at it is that my roses will not go to hell in a hand basket if I don't prune them for one winter. I do plan to cut out dead canes and to shorten any roses that are intruding on another rose's space. Other than that I'm doing nothing. I have mostly old roses but also at least half a dozen floribundas and they will all get the same treatment. In the English test trials the best roses after ten years were the unpruned ones and that should count for something. If all is well and the roses are fine I'll do the same thing the following winter. The only way to find out is to do it, and roses are not so fragile that one year of benign neglect will devastate them. I'm looking forward to this as a learning experience and - it's a lot less work!

Ingrid

Aren't we still going to remove twiggy growth and old canes and shape them up a little?

*** The answer is, it depends.
If I am looking at a Tea or China in winter, the LAST thing I would want to do is remove twiggy growth.
The plant needs it.
Depends upon it.
So -- What roses are you growing, and what do you wish to accomplish?
To answer the question more directly:
With MY roses, the answer is YES.

I do not cut off "twiggy growth."
Nor do I shorten canes.
Have not done so, for several years.
My roses are the better for it -- but as with all things, YMMV.

Jeri

What do people think about crossing or overlapping canes? Are those are okay too now under this new regime?

I'll take your word for it JeriJen on the chinas and teas. I only have a few of them and they haven't apparently enjoyed being pruned. But probably half of my roses are HTs and Floribundas and they do seem to bloom far more than the OGRs. Outside of spring, this year, the OGRs have hardly a bloom on them.

I would like to participate in a real Think-tank on this, where everyone says exactly what they think about it, without withholding. On each aspect of pruning that is considering being abandoned, so that we can over time come to a clear understanding of what's best. After all, it's complicated. There are lots of kinds of roses in lots of different eco-systems.

For instance on the subject of inward growing canes:

In my case, living in an environment that's sometimes foggy and humid, I think it would be disaster if I let the center of the bush get all clogged up with leaves. I prune to a vase shape, trimming out the centers because letting light and air in there, definitely prevents rust and BS. so I go for the airy look on my roses, it keeps them healthy without spray. For the same reason, I can't have them growing all close together. I don't enjoy spraying.

But I hear that in hot, dry sunny locations, it's ideal to let the leaves shade the canes, and the bud union to prevent burning and drying out.

Well, as for me, this is what I'm considering. Buy pairs of roses, treat them the same, except for pruning, and then see for myself. I suspect that on the very disease-resistant roses it'll be fine, but on the rest, they'll need the usual manicuring. I hope I'm wrong.

Would others like to do the same and see what happens?

I'd like to see the original article on the RNRS experiment. Doesn't England have a cool wet climate? Were any of the plants hybrid teas of average disease susceptibility? Or did they select for disease resistance perhaps unconsciously to get the results they are looking for, and so they can call their experiment a success? Call me skeptical, but it's been known to happen. It's human. It's not like anyone wants to prune. I'd love to find out that we don't need to prune any roses at all. but I'm not so hasty.

-Gala

Hershigirl, I have seen the results of canes "rubbing" against each other and it's not good for the health of the canes and it leaves an in for diseases and insects. I cut them back when that happens.

Carla

Gala --
I live in a coastal environment, which is often (particularly in the spring and early summer) cool and foggy. (Though I admit -- our summers are now getting hotter, and our winters colder.)

My Tea Roses used to be pruned.
They did not do well. Some died. Some came close to dying.

WE did not stop pruning because of anyone's study.
We stopped pruning because the roses were dying. The only measure left to us was to leave them alone, as roses are left alone in so many deserted gardens and cemeteries.

After several years of not being pruned, they are big, healthy, and floriferous.

Now, our Tea Roses are not pruned -- and they pretty much bloom non-stop.

IF one is determined to prune Tea Roses, it should be done during the hot, dry period of the year, when they are naturally semi-dormant.

Please remember that!
TEAS DO NOT GO DORMANT IN THE WINTER. They did not evolve to do that.
They slip into a form of dormancy when it is hot, and water is scarce.
I wish I had known that 20 + years ago.
I could have saved myself a lot of trouble and grief.

The history of our remaining Hybrid Tea Roses, modern Climbers, and Austins is identical.

So, see, I've already made the experiment.
I am satisfied with the result.
(And my Teas are still blooming like crazy.)

One other important thing:
Many of you have gardens which are precisely laid out. You may not want 12-ft-tall roses covered with flowers and leaves, crowding each other.
I can understand that.
I don't have that sort of a garden.
Big huge healthy roses make me happy.
No one wants the same thing, and if you need to restrain the size of your roses this sort of non-pruning won't work for you.

Jeri

Gala

England has a climate where most roses experience little deseases. A cooler climate with allmost daily non splashing rains and frequent gentle breeze is something roses like most.

That article doesn't say anything about the idea of white pith - not brown -- in the Rose stems . Are we to disregard that and not worry about what the inside stems look like. Last year almost all of my Roses had a light brown color in the pith - so I cut them down almost to the heart of the plant. They slowly all grew back fine but I would rather not have done that. I will try the new method this year and not worry about what the inside stem looks like. Anybody have any ideas about this?

Tom

I read Gregs article at Vintage, and was so glad to hear that what I have been doing to most of my roses (not all) has been the right thing-I don't use hedge clippers though, and my daughter and I reasoned that if we left a little more, sometimes a lot more wood, we would get a lot more flowers. And so we have, and since I grow for lots of cut flowers, and not for individual perfect flowers for showing, I have been doing just this for about 5 years. I think that I do have to really water more to support all that bloom, and the plants have gotten huge-planted at 7'centers, they touch each other, and sometimes intertwine. That's when I get a little heavy with the pruning, taking them back to a respectable 4-5' diameter until they start growing again. I don't have any OGR, or climbers, (or fences for that matter) or Austins, because I am afraid that I would run out of room pronto. I think that forcing roses into a small confined space might be O.K. for miniatures, but roses are so opulently beautiful when allowed to express themselves. And of course there are those that are so well behaved, like my Singing in the Rain, that I don't think it will ever outgrow its' space. But even Lavaglut (which I thought was going to be small) loves to grow and bloom big. Anne

I already posted before I found this thread again. Snip, snip, cut, cut, rake all the leaves over to a pile of other stuff and I'm done! Oh yes, 3 trips to the dumpster with full can of trimmings. Usually I make such a production! I really believe it's better to do a decent pruning in August, then, when January comes along, roses are still blooming and growing. Now I can get to the subject of what am I gonna buy and plant??
Mary

Hershigirl,
Last year I read somewhere about taking a piece of rose cane and using it as a brace to separate too-close canes. I did it and took a photo. It works just fine and you do not have to lose a cane. Stick each end of the brace onto a thorn. Will keep it in place and prevents canes from rubbing.
Mary
{{gwi:348887}}

{{gwi:348889}}

jerijen,
Where do you get the flowers on your tall shrubs? When I let my bourbons get tall, I did not get any flowers down low. The English book I was following said to prune in a rounded dome shape with the front most canes being shortest so the flowers appear at all heights. In the summer, canes were to be shortened back a little to encourage branching. I only do this with my bourbons and hyb. perpetuals. I sometimes get a cane dying back but not that often.
If I let them grow tall and don't cut them at all, will all the flowers be at the very top? Or will the long canes flop over and flower along the legnth? What happens in your garden?

Kitty -- There are very few blooms when things get that tall.
They grow huge here. 14-ft canes are not at all uncommon.

But this is definitely not Bourbon Country.
I have never yet found a Bourbon that fulfilled its promise here, so there are now none.

If you were to let them grow full height, yes. I suspect all of the blooms
would be up at the very top.
So, if you are able to cut them back in your climate, I would do so.

FWIW, Mme. Isaac Periere wanted to grow as an arching shrub, 20-ft in diameter.
Mme. Pierre Oger climbed up our 14-ft retaining wall and bloomed outside my window, at the top.
But their disease problems disqualified them from a permanent tenancy here.

Jeri

The techniques Gregg describes may well work in areas such as California and England. They would not work in areas with real winters and heavy blackspot infestations. After most winters I have to prune my roses down to 24 inches or less, sometimes almost to the ground, to get below the winter damage. Then, if I didn't keep them uncrowded in the centers, blackspot would take over the garden no matter how often I sprayed.

What I find happening when almost any rose growing technique is discussed is that the author writes for their climate and their mix of roses. We forget that what works for one climate may not work at all for another, and what works for one type of rose may not work for another. Our local rose society has shown tapes and slide shows on rose culture made by folks living in California or the South. Some of the rules spelled out in these programs bring laughter from the group viewing it since they are so clearly not suited to our climate.

When reading anything like this article from Vintage, or from the ARS, please keep in mind that what works in one place may not work at all in another. We all need to be careful not to generalize and believe one size fits all.

Kitty Moon Beam:

There's a wonderful irreplaceable book called "Landscaping with Old Garden Roses" (Liz Druitt / G. Michael Shoop) that you may be able to find at a library. Shoop is the owner of the Antique Rose Emporium in Texas.

It says that Bourbons are the perfect roses for "pegging," which makes for the most blooms.

The book deals with each class of Old Garden Roses, in turn, with many photos of the whole bush, which illustrate pruning, pegging, different landscape applications, in various garden settings.

Training the long canes horizontally along a fence or support, should make buds come up all along the cane.

Good Luck! I love your name!

-Gala

It may be of interest to note:

In Climbing Roses of the World the author, Quest-Ritson says:

"Much nonsense has been written about pruning. There are only 2 rules. The first: If in doubt, don't. ...the second: Do it only if you want to. The main reason for pruning is aesthetic. Tailor and shape your roses to fit your intentions and the available space. ....cut out dead, or dying wood, and stems beginning to look woody and threadbare."

So that's a pretty relaxed approach, and it eases tension to hear it.

Then again I thought about Rosa Eglanteria. It's a species rose but if it isn't pruned back, you don't get the fruity-scented edible new-growth foliage that this rose is known for. Whenever I see a bush of this variety, I go running to smell the famous scented foliage, and I never smell anything, because no-one ever prunes them. Stickers in my face, that's all I get! Druitt says it will naturally grow to 12' high, but should be kept at 4 or 5 feet.

-Gala, Friend of Roses

But, there again, Gala, not you're pruning that eglanteria because the plant will be better for it.
You're pruning it for aesthetic reasons, yes?

And aesthetics are certainly a valid motivation.
After all, why do you have roses to begin with?

What I HATE, tho, is seeing vigorous new healthy growth cut off a plant,
because the process of pruning demands it.
Because, for instance, you are supposed to end up with a reduced number of canes.

To me, that makes no sense -- no matter WHAT your climate is.

Jeri

I like Gregg's writing style. I thought the info. on watering and feeeding were helpful to anyone. I realize pruning is different in various climates but all in all, I liked it and think others can benefit from reading,especially on a boring, cold, winter day.

Carla

Gardening in the same climate as Gregg, I follow most of his rules. My objective is to keep the rose working on fresh, vital, new wood.

The steps are:
1) Give a good deadheading to remove hips.
2) Remove old, used-up canes in their entirety. These are often 3 years old. Remove thin blind wood entirely.
3) There's twiggy and there's twiggy. The ratty, short, aged, weak growth at the base of a rose, usually the leftovers from the propagating wood, is something I always remove when the plant produces nice stout new basals. I don't even wait for pruning season. With naturally twiggy growers like Chinas and Teas, I certainly don't remove all but the stoutest canes. If I'm pruning a Gallica or Portland with some tiny, thin laterals, off they go. And when I prune Teas and Chinas, I definitely thin the canes on occasion, usually as a matter of removing used up wood.
4) Thin conflicting, prickle-damaged, crazy-growing canes. Thinning means remove entirely. I'm not a cane shortener, except for #1.
5) Now that you see the plant as a whole, examine the basals. See if there are any old, damaged, used up basals that should be removed. Don't shorten them. Remove them entirely.
6) Shape minimally to create an attractive overall plant.

I follow this method with Hybrid Perpetuals and modern own root HT's and Floribundas, only more so. I do tend to thin more, deadhead harder. This is very much a matter of degree. With those classes, I do shorten canes to at least pencil-thick canes. This is accomplished in Step #1.

I don't use power hedge pruners. I hate the ragged cuts.
I don't prune every plant thoroughly every year. Some will have a single cut and be done.
I don't shorten canes by one third, one half or any other fraction.

Some roses loves the stimulation of hard pruning. These distinguish themselves by becoming ever less productive if pruned minimally. IME, shorter modern shrub roses bred for hardiness and landscape use are often in this group. They build up a lot of aged, sunburned canes over the years. I have a decent number that love nothing better than to be pruning hard down to 10 inches or shorter every couple of years to totally renew the plant. Some species of section Cinnomomeae like this treatment, too. The most vigorous, floriferous Rosa californica I know is mowed to the ground every winter. R. californica plena, an obvious hybrid, does not get this treatment. I have a found Fairy or miniature rose that thrives being cut to 4 inches every winter. Go figure.

Some classes of roses, including some very hardy roses, hate pruning, Hybrid Spinossisimas being the foremost example. I leave them alone except to remove dead wood.

I envy all of you who have the luxury of choosing how you want to prune and having such big, healthy plants. Our low Thursday night is supposed to be zero or below. My daughter lives in Minneapolis and they go for a week at a time without the HIGH getting above zero. In those conditions it isn't a question of how high to prune but only how much live cane is left by the time spring finally rolls around.

I think that all of you guys who grow mostly OGRs are giving (at best) questionable advice that many (particularly newbies) will transfer to regarding pruning HTs and FLs. I love Gregg and Vintage, but I've never seen quite the level of mass kool-aid drinking that has come from his newsletter about pruning on this thread.

YMMV,

Susan :-D

It's true that where I am in So. CA, the roses can get really really big in a hurry. Many times I had to find another spot for a rose because it got much bigger than any description in the book or catalog. Some tolerated the pruning and some wanted to be left alone. I think you just have to try and see what works best. I was trying to keep my Heritage at 4 feet like I saw at the LA Arboretum, then I saw a big poofy one in someone's yard and was smitten by that look.
I have an old no name climber going up an apple tree that I ignore. It has a few ancient canes and all the young growth is sky high. I never see any new growth from lower down and I wonder if I should have cut it back years ago. Whatever happens, I'll just enjoy the plant as long as it's there. I think it's too late now to try removing the old canes.

When the HTs are left alone, they get so tall. Lagerfeld/Starlight and Honor will go way over my head and the flowers are up in the sky where no one can see or smell them. Then too, when you cut the flowers, a wierd kind of pruning happens and the canes get shortened by taking the flowers off. I suppose just snapping off the hips is best, but I can't resist a bouquet. Around August, I get some strange tallish looking HTs and everyone is talking about plans for a nice fall flush and how they are going to trim the plants and when. I usually cave in at that point and shorten them down because they look untidy from the street and I have fall flush visions in my head. Besides, the flowers look terrible in the summer heat and I am longing for some really pretty ones in the cooler weather. Some years it's better than others. Last year, I had a great big crop of fall flowers on the DA roses after a light pruning, but the year before was not spectacular even though I thought I pruned them the same. This last year, I left a few alone, thinking they did not like the 2007 fall-flush pruning and they did nothing in the fall of 2008 but are now really dense with wood so I am hoping for a big spring bloom this year.

Regarding my modern HTs, I notice that if I just snap off hips, they have intermittent flowers up to the hottest times in summer. Then when it cools off a little,there are intermittent flowers until January. I can't seem to get a big bloom in fall unless I deliberately prune them. By January they are really tall again and it's hard to enjoy the flowers on the HTs when they are up that high. I like it when people can see them and smell them. If they are out of reach, no one pays any attention. The first roses of the year are like celebrities with the fresh mulch and new shiny leaves. If I let them alone and they flower off and on through the winter, I wonder if they would have the big spring bloom I always look forward to.

And so -- you are pruning for the reason that most people prune:
To change the size or shape of the plant for your convenience or for aesthetic reasons.
The rose would be quite happy to not be pruned.

What remains is to prune in ways that achieve your goals to the best degree
possible -- while minimizing any negative impact on the plant.
=========

FWIW, the HTs we still have are treated more or less like Teas.
They do better that way than they did when conventionally pruned.
Yes, they are much taller now, than they were when conventionally
pruned. I like them that way.
But that doesn't mean everyone has to do it.
Or even that everyone SHOULD do it.

OTOH, I'm not going to go out and advise people that they MUST prune
conventionally. Nor did I say that at the pruning demo we did this morning.

Jeri

I am going to let the new own roots HTs that are in 1 gal. pots now go unpruned. They are in the back and I'm going to let the plants take their own shape and see if they are better for it. Most of the front HTs are on Huey and perhaps it pushes them to be taller and thinner. I'm not sure. I'm open to new ideas. If it works out better, maybe I'll let them get unruly in front. I probably should have started with naturally shorter kinds but it was years ago and I knew next to nothing. I do admit that I prune them that way for selfish reasons. However, I don't shovel prune except in cases where the rose can't be saved at all. They have to endure the pruning, but on the whole they are a lucky, spoiled bunch of plants. No deer,no weeds, no JBs....lots of water,sun and mulch. They have it pretty good with me.

I have over 100 roses that are a mix of hybrid teas, grandifloras, floribundas, miniatures, and climbers. I have been performing my January pruning with an electric hedge trimmer for the last two years with wonderful results. I can get what was once a huge job finished in one day. Like Jeri, I adopted this practice through trial and error. I found that after years of traditional pruning methods, roses that I had purchased as robust 5 gallon plants were becoming spindly and unproductive. The reason I am pruning at all is to change the shape or reduce the size of a plant.

I do not spray insecticides or fungicides. I do have a few miniatures in pots on the patio that will get a touch of mildew in the winter and spring, but I believe it has more to do with them being on concrete and/or simply varieties that are prone to it. Once the weather warms up the mildew disappears.

These methods are what is working for me. They may not be one size fits all, but I would encourage anyone living in California to give them a try.

Not sure if this was asked of already but a bit off topic. Has anyone ever ordered roses from vintage gardens? What did you think of their quality?

I've ordered tons of roses from Vintage over the years, and they are great! The bands they send are extremely well-rooted, and their customer service is fabulous. In fact, I just received an order of four last Weds., and potted them up to gallons on Monday. My favorite own-root vendors are Vintage, RU, Heirloom and Chamblees... I love them all. They vary in what varieties they carry and their prices, but you can't go wrong with any of them. Vintage is what I'd call very reasonable prices for excellent product. All four of these are the type of mom'n'pop businesses that really deserve your support.

Susan

A big % of our roses have come from Vintage, over the years. They remain our favorite source.

I don't want to contemplate life without Vintage.

Jeri

I've ordered the majority of my roses from vintage. The quality is very consistant. I've never got a mislabeled rose from them. They have done an outstanding job as far shipping in good condition at the requested time, never a mistake in the order. They email you promptly with a confirmation and any alternates. The roses may not be the largest, nor the smallest, but always consistantly good quality. They have so many roses that you just can't buy anywhere else. At times i have gotten roses that were probably a little larger than usual, but i have never got roses that were too small to send out. When they have their sales i tend to go overboard, unbeatable for mailorder roses. As far as price/quality but not as many choices as vintage is chamblees, if you drive there. They have not only the one gal roses, but also 2gal for around $15, and 3gal of some of the most popular for about $19 if i remember correctly, then there is the boneyard, out of fashion roses $2 for gal, $5 for 2gal.
I think it really depends on what roses you are getting, how many, shipping costs and quality. If you are getting commonly available roses and only a few, i would go with the biggest roses. But sometimes that can be a little tricky because many times whether it's a gallon,band,quart, they are either all the same size or the bands might be larger than some gallons.

I just wanted to mention that Gregg is re-writing his article because some of the information he received is incorrect. I haven't gone to look at the site yet to see if he's completed this.

He sent out the ammended information yesterday. I have it in WORD format, for anyone who's interested.
And it will be included in the upcoming HRG "Rose Letter."

It's the information on "hedge pruning" which is revisited.

Jeri