While I don't have 'Marchesa Boccella' now, I did grow it for many years. We treated it just like a Floribunda, and it bloomed continuously except for the 6 weeks after spring pruning. At that time, we pruned it back as short as we wanted and completely defoliated it.

Other, larger-growing HPs are similar (we're currently growing 'Reine des Violettes', 'Paul Neyron', and 'Arrillaga'), but we let them get much bigger. I like to peg Arrillaga and Reine des Violettes. In all cases, they don't really ever go dormant. But I do think defoliating them at pruning time (late February for us) helps synchronize them for a big spring bloom.

Malcolm, I think you prune all (?) your Teas. Do you recommend that for all Floridians? And do you defoliate your Teas? How far back to you prune the Teas? I have an early HT (Mme Abel Chatenay). Would you prune her the same way? How about Louis Philippe? (I want a lot of sugar for my nickel, don't I?)

Thanks.

Sherry

Sherry, We do prune everything, mainly to force a synchronized bloom for our final exams and graduation weeks. But with true Teas, we don't prune hard. Mainly we're reducing the height somewhat so they'll be at eye level, and also narrowing them where necessary,if they are trespassing on a neighbor. But when we're done, mature Teas will still be 4-5 feet tall by as wide as is feasible. On the other hand, if you're not trying for a highly synchronized bloom event, I don't think you would ever have to prune a Tea. As for 'Louis Philippe' and other true Chinas, we prune again for synchronization and size control; otherwise not necessary. They can be pruned really severely if you want (I'd not do it, but I don't think they'd mind being pruned with a hedge trimmer back to 4-6 inches height!) HTs -- we pretty much use the "standard" ARS methods, ending up with an 18-24" plant with several canes, all more than pencil-thick.

As labor allows, we do defoliate all our roses. Most years, we don't get around to quite all of them (especially the huge climbers), but I like the idea of complete defoliation at pruning time.

Now that I've said that, I'll post here an ancient article about how we pruned in 1993 -- not much has changed, but realize the statements about what happened "last year" and what we'll be doing "next year" refer to the early '90s, not necessarily 2010.

Early Spring Procedures for Old Roses
Pruning, Pegging, Training

(reprinted from the 3/93 issue of The Cherokee Rose)

While growers of modern and old roses usually prune their bushes in the early spring, there are a number of differences in the way some of the old rose classes should be treated, compared with modern roses. Here are some notes on what we do at FSC. Our goal is to reach peak bloom on as many varieties as possible, the last week in April.
Tea roses (not to be confused with Hybrid Teas) dont need to be pruned as hard as you would Hybrid Teas. In fact, the larger you leave the bush, the better it will bloom. We cut ours back lightly to keep them in bounds but try to end up with a bush 4-5 feet tall, and perhaps 3 feet wide. We do try to remove the weak, "twiggy" growth, but it is not necessary to cut back to finger-thick canes. If you prune your Teas too hard, they may sulk for several weeks, or even suffer some dieback.
Chinas arenÂt at all picky about how theyÂre pruned. We use a gasoline-powered hedge trimmer and simply mow them back to a manageable size. If they arenÂt too big for your garden, there is no great need to prune them at all. On the other hand, Chinas donÂt mind being pruned severely, if thatÂs what you need to do to get them back to an appropriate size.
Bourbons seem to fall into two groups for us -- those which flower constantly (ÂSouv. de la MalmaisonÂ, ÂSouv. de St. AnneÂsÂ, ÂBoule de NeigeÂ), and those which flower heavily in the spring, then only lightly or not at all in the autumn (nearly all other Bourbons). The frequent or constant bloomers are treated much like HTÂs or Floribundas -- we prune them back to sizable wood, removing all dead wood and thin, weak growth. The second group is pegged, then heavily pruned after flowering (see notes on pegging, below). Of course, you could also peg the frequent-flowering types, for a massive spring bloom.
Hybrid Perpetuals tend to bloom only in the spring for us, with an occasional flower in the autumn. So, we try to encourage a massive display in the spring by developing the longest possible canes through the fall and winter, then pegging them. After the bloom is over (late May, usually), we prune them back severely and start over, for the next year. Notable exceptions are ÂPaul NeyronÂ, ÂReine des ViolettesÂ, and ÂGeorg ArendsÂ, which will flower repeatedly if you prune them back after each bloom flush. We donÂt peg these two, although we know of people who do, with great success.
Musks (R. moschata), (not to be confused with Hybrid Musks) are very slow to flower after pruning, so we try to prune them about two weeks before our other roses (mid-February), to synchronize their first bloom with the other roses. We do prune them severely, much like a short-growing HT.
Hybrid Musks are also slow to flower after pruning. They could be pruned early like the true Musks, or you might just avoid pruning them at all, let them flower on large plants, then prune as necessary in May.
Strictly once-flowering types (e.g., Albas) should not be pruned hard until after flowering. We do cut the tips of the branches off and defoliate the plants. If they have flexible branches, we peg them.
Climbing types, such as Noisettes, Climbing Teas, etc., are pruned only to remove unwanted growth that sticks out into the aisles or over another plant. We try to keep as much of them as possible, tying the canes back onto the trellises or pillars. Pillar-grown plants with stiffly upright canes are cut at many levels along the pillar (some canes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 feet high), to promote bloom along the entire height of the pillar. Pillar roses with more flexible canes are wrapped around the pillar to yield more flowers than would vertically trained canes. Trellis-grown climbers with flexible canes also flower better when forced to grow horizontally (comparable to pegging a shrub), so we bend many canes into a horizontal position when tying them to the trellises.
We feel that we made a mistake last year, in pruning our climbers too severely. ÂMaréchal NielÂ, in particular, was slow to recover, looking rather sparse until well into the summer. This year, weÂll cut off only enough to prevent its grabbing and wounding passing visitors to the garden!

Pegging is a way of getting many more flowers from a rose than it would ordinarily produce. First, hereÂs a bit of background information on why it works. Roses, like most other plants, produce auxin, a growth-regulating hormone. It is produced in the buds and especially by growing shoot tips. You may recognize the fact that Rootone or other root-inducing hormone powders contain a type of synthetic auxin, but plants produce the natural form (indole-3-acetic acid). In addition to stimulating rooting, auxin causes the phenomenon of "apical dominance," in which the buds on a stem tend to remain dormant as long as there is some growth above them, due to the large amount of auxin moving down the stem. If the concentration of auxin in the stem behind a bud is suddenly diminished, the bud will grow. WeÂve all observed that fact with roses -- the axillary buds (those just above the point of attachment of each leaf) normally donÂt grow until/unless you cut off the stem just above such a bud. Within a few days after cutting, the topmost bud, and perhaps one or two below it, swell and begin to grow. Buds further down the stem tend to remain dormant, since the swelling bud(s) at what is now the top of the stem quickly begin producing their own auxin, shipping it "downstairs" to keep the lower buds from growing. Pegging negates that situation in two ways: First, you remove the tip of the cane, reducing auxin production. Also, tying the cane in a horizontal position allows auxin to move to the lower side, leaving a row of buds on what is now the top side of the cane relatively free of growth-inhibiting auxin. Therefore, nearly every upward-facing bud along the pegged stem will grow, giving a long row of shoots, each of which will flower. Instead of a long vertical cane with a cluster of flowers at the tip, you get a great arch of flowers, sometimes 30 or more, all along the cane. To peg a rose, cut the tip of each branch off, to get rid of any new growth coming from the terminal bud. Bend the remaining cane so that much of it is horizontal, or even below horizontal, and tie it in that position. ThatÂs all there is to it. We were particularly impressed with the performance of a ÂReine des Violettes in our garden, last spring, which produced several hundred flowers over a period of about two weeks. It was the hit of the garden during that time. The only disadvantage of pegging is that some varieties bear their flowers on extremely short stems when pegged, making it difficult to exhibit them well, in a rose show. Of course, you could leave a few canes upright for show flowers, and peg the rest for massive garden color. We plan to peg the following roses: Hybrid Perpetuals, Albas, Mosses, ÂAutumn DamaskÂ, and long-caned Bourbons.
When to prune: We have three goals in mind, in deciding when to prune. First, we want to avoid pruning too early, since a major freeze could kill the new growth, and a light frost could stunt the growth and cause "blind" shoots, which donÂt flower. So, at LakelandÂs latitude, late February would be the earliest truly safe time to prune. Many people in our area do prune earlier and usually get away with it, but we prefer not to gamble the health or even survival of our bushes. Of course, those of you to the south or closer to the coast can prune earlier, and to the north, youÂll probably want to wait a little longer. Secondly, FSCÂs commencement ceremonies are usually the last weekend in April, so we want our gardens to be at their best for that event. Finally, the Lakeland (Imperial Rose Society) rose show is often that same weekend, and we want the gardens to look good for visitors from the show. WeÂve carefully observed flowering dates of our roses for the past two years, and have found that most types should be pruned the first week in March, for flowers the last week in April. Exceptions are the Musks and Hybrid Musks, as already mentioned, which should be pruned earlier, and some of the few-petaled Chinas, which might be saved for the second week in March. We usually remove all of the foliage from our bushes at pruning time, to get rid of as many black spot and powdery mildew spores as possible, and to encourage the bushes to sprout out quickly (leaves are a source of auxin; removing them stimulates new growth).
Malcolm M. Manners

What a great article, Malcolm! You just taught me everything I was wondering about. I had no idea why people stripped off the leaves so that information was very helpful. I will do that this year. And your Tea pruning practices have clarified that for me perfectly.

I have a Mme Caroline Testout, Climbing (and a Don Juan growing similarly) - thick, stiff vertical canes - against a trellis which I will take photos of when the rain slacks off and post here in hopes of your telling me what to do with them. You mentioned "Pillar-grown plants with stiffly upright canes are cut at many levels along the pillar (some canes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 feet high), to promote bloom along the entire height of the pillar." They're only in the ground two years. Should I shorten some of their canes to the graduated heights that you mention? Re Don Juan (which is almost self-supporting, it's so stiff) I am reluctant to pull his canes closer to the trellis because I've had canes die that I pulled into a different position on other stiff climbers, i.e., Maman Cochet, Cl, and it seemed like they didn't like being forced to go where nature hadn't intended. Neither Mme Caroline T. or Don Juan have much foliage up and down the canes. So photos will follow of the two climbers.

Thanks so much, Malcolm. You're a brilliant sweetheart!!!

Sherry

Here's Mme Caroline Testout - probably a case in point for the phenomenon of "apical dominance".
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Here's two angles on Don Juan who is growing lopsided toward the south.
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Thanks for any guidance you can offer.

Sherry

Sherry, Yes, with Don Juan, I like cutting to many heights. And it looks like you've got enough branching there to make that happen. I've not grown Mme. Caroline Testout, but would think you could safely shorten in some of the branches toward the pillar, giving you the multiple cuts that promote lots of bloom. Also to the extend you can force branches to grow horizontally, that will promote bloom.

Hi Sherry- Your Don Juans look abt. the same as mine, I have done like Dr. Manners suggests and bent them over and tied them to the trellis, and what happens, they send out shoots all along the cane that flower... now I wonder, it is almost pruning time, do you prune back your Don Juans ? and if so, how much, how far back-- mine have gotten so very tall, all those shoots along the main canes, how do you prune them ? do you cut it all off, back down even on the main cane ? mine have gotten so long and huge they are hard to care for and weed under, I get eaten-up every time ! sally

I like to grow 'Don Juan' on a pillar. Our pillars are 8 feet above the ground, so I want a DJ plant around 9 feet tall at maturity. So in the spring, I would prune to leave a cane or two all the way to the top of the pillar. Others are cut shorter, at different heights, and any side-branches from those main basal canes that are thick enough to be worth saving are cut back to 6-8 inches long, to leave as many cut tips as possible, at as many heights as possible, all along the pillar. That will then result in a pillar of flowers, not just a green pillar with a puff of flowers on top.
Malcolm

What a great discussion! I'm getting back into roses after being away for a couple of years. (We moved and had no time or money for roses at the new house.) I always took good care of my roses, but pruning was always difficult for me. Not physically hard, but mentally. I'm saving this so I can refer to it during pruning time to remind me proper pruning is a good thing.
Many thanks to you Sherry and Malcolm!

I'll weigh in on sherry's 'Caroline Testout' :)

She looks ready for training, though I would like to allow her more room - she can be very vigorous, even in England.

At this stage I would prune out the couple of older canes (the darker looking one with laterals and the couple of spindly-things nearby) right back to the base of the plant.

The three or four strong new canes remaining are all you will need to cover the trellis space you have given her. Don't cut them at all. Take them back as low and tight as you can to the trellis and tie them in. Then train the canes one at at time in curves, sweeps and arabesques (like a pretzel, if that image helps:), S-shapes flat against the trellis, rather than a strict 'horizontal'. Let some of the outside curves extend beyond the end-posts (think of a dollar sign).

As the year goes on, new long canes will emerge which can just be tied-in neatly to use next year, or trained in if there is room on the trellis. Deadhead as normal, but don't cut new canes back.

I would expect that you can treat her the same way each year in the future - taking out all the flowered wood to the base and retraining only new wood, or at least pruning the flowered canes back to a new strong lateral.

Otherwise, you will have a vast, unruly mass of wood and foliage to deal with.

It looks like you have given them a great start - now you need to make them look the way you picture them in your mind.

You are lucky to have Malcolm to refer to - his advice is excellent and gathered from much personal experience and his extensive travels!

Hope this helps rather than confuses:)
Jon

sherry - this may sound really silly but I grow willow for basketmaking and one of the ways I get the canes to be more flexible is to warm them in my hands at the point where you want to bend and then gentle rubbing as you slowly bend the stiff stem. I am thrilled by the level of expertise on this forum and learning loads every day. However, some of the things you all do? defoliation - what's that about? I whip off BS leaves throughout the season and have a good clear up especially around the rust plagued ones (Madame Gregoire) but have never attempted removing what has been left after the winter. Also, the idea of pillar roses is new (and worrying) to me as I have grown all my roses against walls on wires which makes training on a horizontal a breeze. Won't I just end up with blooms at the top of the canes?
I have gone and planted 'Meg' (I know, I was warned) and that has stiff and vicious thorns. Suggestions are for growing on a pillar but I am thinking that I may just let her arch around like a moyesii and hope she isn't too brittle.
On the subject of HPs, I have decided against getting any cos they all seem enormous and I can't be doing with pegging, or spare the space. Plus, they seem to have huge blooms but not too many of them - not what I want from a rose - I want total colour!!, scent, disease resistance, remontancy....not too much then!

campanula, don't think your willow methodology sounds silly, but it would be bloody with this rose. The deadly prickles are less than an inch apart. There's almost no where to grab hold, and "gently rubbing" is laughable. I'm going out there now. Dear husband gave me a face mask and said go for it! (I told you.) Fortunately, it's cold enough for long sleeves, but that only means I'll be lashed to this thing - maybe permanently.

Sherry
P.S. In his defense he has a bad back and can't reach over his head.

Campanula -- I think the defoliating is a Florida/California thing. Since we don't really have winter, the plants tend to keep virtually all of their leaves from last season. I like to remove them to tell the plant spring is coming, as well as to dramatically reduce the number of black spot spores in the garden. It is indeed labor-intensive, but if we can do it, we like to.

Pillars are an interesting way to grow a columnar rose. It works especially well with roses like 'Don Juan' that tend to make a few very stiffly upright canes that resist bending. And yes, if you don't trim such a rose properly, you get a bunch of flowers on the top. It is through the creation of many cut stems all along the length of the pillar that we get even bloom throughout the height.

I'm trying to think where, near Cambridge, you could have a good look at some pillars. I'm fairly sure I've seen some at Peter Beales' Nursery. Don't recall seeing any at Mannington Hall. I'll put a link here to a 'Don Juan' in the FSC garden -- I'm a bit hesitant to do that, because it was not at that point ideally trained to the pillar, so it's not a great example. Still, you can get an idea from it.
Malcolm

Don't panic, sherry:) I can only see three canes that I would use to attach to the trellis/gate/thingy - those with no or few laterals coming off them. Cut the others off at the base with your loppers, then remove them by cutting them out section by section instead of trying to pull them right off the trellis. With them out of the way it will be easy to see what to do with the others. I'd tie one to the left and one to the right, curve them over as best you can, then cross the third one over them. Get your wimpy DH to hold them down while you tie them.

Shouldn't take you more then ten minutes :) Wait until she's *really* grown up - then you can be scared:)

Wish I could come and show you - but if you can't manage this then try Malcolm's method.

Best wishes
Jon

I got her done. I followed your directions to a tee, Jon. LOL Now I know what "getting your panties all in a wad" means. Hers are definitely in a wad! I'm posting photos in a new thread. Thanks everybody.

Malcolm, that's a beautiful start for the pillared Don Juan. Mine's on an arbor, but I'm going to give your method a try.

Sherry

Thank you for the article Malcolm.

cripes. sherry, that's not a rose - it is a 'weapon of mass destruction'
Malcolm, fantastic! I have grown a rose on an obelisk where I have bent the canes round and round so I am guessing that you do much the same but with a tighter turn around a pillar. I am thinking that pillar roses are very specific in their growth patterns as it would be a nightmare if there were loads of new canes breaking from the base. How many are you aiming to train? 3? 4? Am I looking for basically a small rambler which does break from the base but can be constantly renewed?
Sherry, 'Meg' looks a lot like your super-prickly monster - causing me some anxiety as I have also heard that the canes are brittle too. I LOVE that blue-green timber - your roses look fabulous against it even bare as they are. I am hoping to make use of pillars as they take little ground space (the only spaces I have are up in the air now). Have you ever tried a catenary (I think they are called that when swags of roses are grown on thick rope) Interested but again, it seems to require very specific habits, particularly flexibility.

campanula, MCT and I had signed a truce, but others including DH found her to be very belligerent. She was surprisingly flexible, but the prickles caught her every which way, and that's probably what caused the little damage.

Sherry

Great thread-- thanks, all.

Sherry, a gorgeous example of Jon's arabesques was Seattlesuze's photo of the training of a rose she thought might be Gloire de Dijon but that turned out to be The Alchymist. It was trained by Stephen Scaniello. If you can manage to dig that out of the Gallery archive for this forum (which would be a miracle) or if seattlesuze still has it lying around, you'll have your answer.

Thanks SO much for this thread which I clicked on out of boredom cause I don't own any HP's.
IMO It should be relabelled "How to Prune Heirloom Roses" and re-posted, it's that important and people may be missing out on this valuable information.

I have printed out Dr. Manners article and cannot WAIT for February to do a little pruning although my roses are younger than Sherry's so there is less to be done. But next year...

Denise