Most of the time you can tell if the thread will be about tropical roses like teas and chinas. If you don't want to discuss them don't click on the link to the thread.

I thought it was a joke, too, but it's obvious some people think it's serious, which proves luxrosa's point even more--that there is a great deal of confusion about which classes are considered antique/old garden and which are not.

The intent of the original post is clear, but it loses much of its force due to the fact that Teas ARE Antique Roses.

All rose classes in existence before 1867 are considered Antique/Old Garden Roses. Teas were one of those classes, and this IS the appropriate forum for their discussion.

1867 is the somewhat arbitrary date set as the introduction of the "first" Hybrid Tea. I've read that there are a couple of slightly older candidates for that position. Also, as someone pointed out in the other thread, there very well may be a few Hybrid Teas lurking in the Hybrid Perpetual class. In fact, what most laypersons consider a "real" rose--that long-stemmed high-centered bud in crayon like colors, didn't come into favor until well into the 1900's.

The Hybrid Tea class, and all classes that come after it (Polyantha, for example) are technically "modern" classes.

The idea that Teas should be discussed in the tropical forum is absurd.

Once again let me say that the suggestion about modifying the title of this forum is a great compromise and should please both sides of the debate.

It's a joke and I'm enjoying it. Happy holidays, everybody!
Melissa

Lol, merry Christmas, Niels!

I see you've updated your growing zone from a 5 to 6b. 6b! Isn't that semi-tropical? And you still can't grow teas? Even I grow one scentless, black-spot ridden tea here in 5b, albeit it sits in the garage half the year.

It used to be said that Americans can't comprehend irony. It's good to see that a few are able to prove that wrong :)

Excellent post, Niels.

oh right. Then what - a forum just for species roses? One for slightly older roses which were bred after 1867 but are not 'modern'? A forum just for yellow roses? Honestly, what a lot of fuss about nothing much. Also, while I can see why it might be essential to keep old gardens 'pure' - I frankly cannot abide the anal nitpicking attitudes of the National Trust and English heritage with their attempts at garden restoration from old and vague plans which may or may not have been designed by Gertrude la la la! Gardens should look forward, not back. They are dynamic living features not some fixed, immutable theatre set and roses move on too. There is an awful element of censorship and exclusivity appearing and if this is the case/ that we are made to feel unsure and ignorant if we mistakenly want to post or reply slightly off topic, then I for one will not be bothering with GW again. I am all for a bit of enthusiastic banter but please, no exclusions or uneccessary boundaries.
I also really hoped this was a joke. Also, I am not in thrall to all things old - I buy F1 seeds for my tomatoes as they are always better than most so-called heirloom varieties. A rose by any other name.........

Thank you Neils.

My apologies - I see it's not just Americans who have trouble with irony :)

Not only do I comprehend irony, I'm well aware that Niels likes to tease and stir up trouble. All you had to do with this thread was to consider the source, and start to chuckle.

However, I've felt that this forum has leaned too hard toward teas recently, even though they are roses that do great here in Sacramento. I read this forum to learn about roses in all conditions, and challenge Niels, Celeste, and all other zone 6b and higher (colder, that is) gardeners to start posting more and taking this forum back from us tropical gardeners!

(Tropical, indeed. My zone 9a garden had hard freezes several days earlier this month, and was covered in frost on Christmas Eve and Christmas mornings.)

{{gwi:329527}}
Frozen Comtesse du Cayla

{{gwi:329528}}
Frost in the Sacramento Cemetery

It's 37 degrees (F) right now. I've got on my long johns and am off to work in the cemetery this morning.
Anita

Merry Christmas and I hope you enjoy the holidays all of you my rose friends.
Burried in 2 feet of snow that is melting quickly now that a warm front is passing and recovering from surgery - I had nothing better to do than bring a smile to your faces and I am happy to see that most of you understand my sense of humor and that I am such a tease.

I will love all classes of roses until my dying breath - here on Earth. Climate zone envy is such a burden ....

I enjoy the discussions and all the things I learn about roses - and I really enjoy - you - my dear rosefriends! I wish all of you a very happy gardening year in 2010 and that your roses may bring you as much joy - as mine does - no matter what class they may belong to - Imagine in "only" 25 years Crimson Glory and in just 40 years from now 'Peace' will belong here on the "Antique Roses forum" - I will stick around and chuckle ....

And BTW Anita - that MILDEW problem have gotten out of control ...

Hugs from Niels

Climate zone envy is such a burden ....

LOL!

I chuckled when I read this thread....thanks, Niels. Most of you are aware that us 'cold-zoners' mean no harm if we joke around about our envy of our warm-zone friends. We enjoy everyone's input.

Anita, I also chuckled when I read about you putting on the long johns. I pretty much live in long-johns until mid- April. I have them in every fashion color and print! And I wanted to share that for the first time in my rose-growing history, I actually had frozen ROSEBUDS and leaves still on my rosebushes on Christmas!!
We had a very unusual fall, with record 'warmth' by zone 4 standards, and the poor roses were so confused that few of them went dormant in November like nature intended. Even though we have snow and windchills last week that dipped to 15 below zero up on my mountain the rosebuds and leaves were frozen in a state of limbo....preserved somewhat for me to take photos. It was an unreal sight, drifts of snow, Christmas wreaths, icicles, and green rose leaves!

I wanted to share the photos but didn't want to hijack this thread, so I started a thread of my own. I wish you all a blessed and beautiful New Year with the roses that make your world beautiful, wherever you grow them....and whichever roses make your heart sing.

Celeste

climate zone envy is such a burden - sooo true! That's why it's so satisfying when others, such as Celeste who recently posted a slew of incredibly gorgeous gallicas, can satisfy our craving for exotic beauties that we can never hope to grow. Gallicas and centifolias seem to be vastly under-represented, especially pictorially, and I for one would love to see them much more often. I don't grow any once-bloomers, but so many of them, including some of the wild roses and ramblers, are just incredibly beautiful and magnificent. And yes, that even includes some of the less-often seen Austins that may not bloom maniacally but have a delicacy and refinement that is wondrous.

Jon, some of us absolutely THRIVE on irony. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I discovered Eddie Izzard. Irreverence is a precious thing, especially when, as seems to be the fact in his case, it is paired with a quite remarkable intelligence.

Ingrid

I used to be a hybrid tea rose hater & snob. But I have grown and matured to see past my prejudice, and learn to accept roses of all kinds. Dainty Bess is a tea rose, and she is wonderful. There are also antique roses that are duds. I think maybe some of the bad rep that tea roses get may have to do with nearly all of them coming to us on graft rootstocks, thus making them less than they might otherwise be. My "own rootstock" roses are powerhouse roses compared to my grafties, which seem to be less than they could be. So, I will continue to keep an open mind to all roses, be they black white red, yellow, or pink, and know that there is room for all kinds of roses, for all kinds of people. But, I still hate "Sterling Silver"

We've had temps down to the low 30's, even here in Southern California -- but one of my favorite roses -- even tho she's not a Tea Rose -- keeps right on ticking.

This morning, in Camarillo, CA:
{{gwi:329529}}

Jeri

Good one Cupshaped roses ! I was pretty sure you were joking when you called the Teas worthless old roses and you finnished up with 'don't ya agree ?'
The whole thread sure got some chuckles from me, good laugher therapy !
I love the photo of your Grandmother's Hat, Jeri!
There is not Just Climate Zone Envy to deal with, but also
Roses Only Growing In One Country Envy that I am feeling right now.

My heart tells me that all of us should share in bearing the burden of "Roses Only Growing In One Country Envy" and thereby lessen the load for those with the severest affliction. That's a really heavy one no one should have to carry alone. I feel for you, rosemeadow and everyone else with that heartache.

Sherry

From "Roses for Dummies": a lot of them are HTs but perhaps they'll be recognizable.

Apple: 'New Dawn', 'Honorable Lady Lindsay'
Apple and clove: 'Souvenir de la Malmaison'
Apple, clove, parsley, and lemon: 'Eden Rose'
Apple, rose, and clove: 'Zephirine Drouhin'
Bay: 'Radiance'
Classic rose scent: 'Parfum de Lowe', 'Scentsational' 'Seattle Scentsation'
Clove: 'Dainty Bess'
Fern and moss: 'Queen Elizabeth'
Fruit: 'Fragrant Plum'
Lemon: 'Confidence'
Lily of the valley: 'Madame Louis Leveque'
Linseed oil: 'Persian Yellow'
Nasturtium: 'Buccaneer'
Orris: 'Golden Masterpiece'
Orris and raspberry: 'Kordes' Perfecta'
Orris and violet: 'Golden Dawn'
Quince: 'Sutter's Gold'
Raspberry: 'Angel's Mateu'
Rose and clove: 'Chrysler Imperial', 'Dolly Parton', 'Fragrant Cloud'
Rose and lemon: 'La France', 'Mirandy', 'Tiffany'
Rose and nasturtium: 'Sarah Van Fleet'
Rose and parsley: 'American Beauty'
Spice: 'Soleil d'Or', 'Scentimental', 'Ain't She Sweet', 'Secret'
Violet: 'Margaret McGredy'
Wine: 'Vandael'

I read that Orris is very similar to violets.

Sherry

Disregard the above post - wrong destination. Sorry.
Sherry

Dainty Bess is a modern HT, not a tea.

These Internet forums can be problematic at times. Without the use of smilies or an "LOL" it is difficult to discern the tone of a post when you can't hear the voice or facial expression of the poster. I wasn't sure if this thread was a joke or not.

Peggy, I agree with you, it is easy to misunderstand, be misunderstood or always understand what someone means. Shoot, I don't always understand what I mean!

But it has helped me personally to give people the benefit of the doubt and not take topics too seriously, especially those that lead to arguments. Being silly is half the fun here, for me, anyway.

Niels, thanks for a fun post and I hope you are recuperating well from your surgery and that you are feeling better. Merry Christmas season to everyone!

Gean

smirking sheepishly (and ironically)

Niels, hope you are recovering well. I always enjoy your posts, whether they are provocative or informative, or just beautiful pictures.

We are doing winter pruning in the Sacramento cemetery, and every time I encounter a lanky rose I think about your thread about how you prune them. I'm much more likely to prune such roses harder now. I scare the other volunteers, who were used to me being very timid about pruning, and now wonder what I'm doing as I whack the canes to stouter wood.
Anita

this makes more sense to me, gardeners from zone 3, zone 4, zone 5, zone 6 etc. should each have their own forum : or tropical roses, temperate roses, arctic roses. the actual year of introduction of the rose i don't think is that important.

I disagree.
If things were broken down that way, we would all learn far less about roses in general,
not to mention rose EVENTS, and rose people.
Traffic on these lists would shrink to the point where it wasn't worth visiting.

I would only have the opportunity to talk to people within a few miles of where I live --
my climate zone is that restricted.

And I would miss the opportunity to hear from people who can grow the glorious old European
once-bloomers that simply don't do well here in La-La Land.
I may not be able to grow them to advantage, but I still want to know about them.

We would all be the poorer for it.

Jeri

Amen, Jeri. Your comment makes perfect sense. Besides, I would have to be tropical forum, subset 2 (dry heat), and then someone would want to be subset 3 (low desert as opposed to high desert) and we could just go on and on and on.....and bore ourselves to tears and never learn anything new.

Ingrid

LOL, so I live in the tropics! And I'm having an ice storm!

Nice going cupshaped. Gave me a good laugh.

Very funny post Niels! I am so lucky that I don't suffer from zone envy. I'm perfectly happy with our four distinct seasons and none of them dry. I once spent the month of July in California, in San Jose and Los Angeles and both nature and gardens were dusty and brown, as dull as our gardens can be in winter. I know a little of tropical gardens too, in the Gambia, and there the top priority is shade so the few roses I saw didn't exactly thrive in the dark.

Jon,
The appreciation and acknowledgment of irony, has no borders.

There appears to be a few road blocks though.

I don't know you quite as well as others, and was a little disappointed when I read your post. Yours is a name that I can always count on. I'm glad you cleared it up, but now I would like to say to please cut it out. I don't like even temporary disappointments.

I wish you a very Happy New Year, and look forward to reading more posts from you.

Sammy

If it makes any of you cold zoners happy (as it would make me), your cold zones have the winter virtues of:

no mildew
no rust
no new weeds
no garden work until spring, ahhhhh ;-)

But alas, us Cold Zoners are stuck inside with cranky cats who cannot go outside because there are 10" of snow on the ground....and we are stuck inside also with nothing to do but dream of summer and days gone by of pulling those weeds, which I would happily do right now if I could go outside and work in the garden, which is asleep until next April.

I do, however, appreciate the virtues of being rust and mildew-free.

Happy New Year, everyone!

no mildew

Not so.

That depends upon more than just winter. In late summer here on the coast north of Boston I can get powdery mildew on roses. I suspect that's the time of year my climate is most like yours. By then the days are usually warm and can still be hot, but the nights are distinctly cooler than they are in July, and the air is always humid here.

Dorothy Perkins (in particular) and some of the other ramblers have a particular reputation for getting mildew at that time.

By 'no mildew', etc. I meant in the *winter* you have a break from fungus, weeds, and WORK!

We are enjoying the holidays at out mountain retirement place and it's nice to have a garden break to be able to enjoy the holidays without going outdoors to see heck in a handbasket that's looking worse and worse. Seems like rust likes Nov/Dec at the coast. We will pay when we get back and I think some of the last roses that have the worst mildew and rust will go as I don't spray.

Seems like rust likes Nov/Dec at the coast

*** Yes. But I don't mind it at the end of the year. Those leaves are old and weak.
What really DOES bother me is rust on brand new leaves just opening, throughout the year.
Roses that do that, they just can't stay here.

Jeri

you have a break from fungus, weeds, and WORK!

:)

Neils, you made my day. Thanks for the smile to start off the new year.

Rosefolly

Brrrrrr.......!!!!! I moved up to zone 8 (North Florida). It's supposed to go down to 20 degrees tonight. Been almost that cold a few other nights. Many of my poor teas are still in pots because I haven't yet been able to get them in the ground with the move and all, and still they look great. Not a whimper out of them. PLEASE don't tell them they are tropical or they might just decide to croak on me.

Sandy

I agree! Just kidding. Actually, I come to this board to be enabled. I know that I cannot grow teas and noisettes in my climate, but after seeing the photos on this board, I have been trying and trying. I have a database of roses that have not survived the winter, and the list contains Devoniensis, Souv. d'un Ami, Arcadia Louisiana Tea, Mrs. B.R. Cant, etc. Still, I keep ordering the teas and hoping against hope that they'll survive.

Sandy, change your zone on your member info. Glad to see you posting again! We'll miss you in Zone 9.

Sherry

Niels, Great post! I thought it was quite funny.

I can't grow teas, chinas, and noisettes here, but I do enjoy crossing zones in cyberspace.
Lori

jeff_zephyr, have you tried growing Duchesse de Brabant? Someone here (forget the name) grows it on Long Island (New York, but its climate is heavily moderated by the ocean). Apparently it was also Teddy Roosevelt's favorite rose, and he also came from Long Island.

york_rose,

No I have not tried Duchesses de Brabant yet. I had high hopes with the teas and noisettes, because I was able to grow Mdme. Alfred Carriere with no problem. However, I read on the web recently that Mdme. Alfred Carriere is not a true noisette, and may in fact be a bourbon. I guess this explains its hardiness in my zone. Currently I am down to thirteen tea roses, and only three are thriving. I am really surprised by the climber Souv. de Mdme. Leonie Viennot; instead of dying back, it has put on long canes last summer. Mlle. de Sombreuil is also turning out to be quite hardy, and so is Mdme. Joseph Schwartz. I am really hopeful that these could turn out to be the teas that will grow into the stunning roses that I've seen here.

jeff zephyr,
Two of your successful roses are climbers: if you're growing them against a wall that could explain a good deal of their success. In addition, David Austin says that the climbing Teas are hardier than their bush counterparts. He expresses a high opinion of 'Cl. Lady Hillingdon' in this regard. Am I correct in thinking that the bush form of LH is also considered to be one of the hardier Teas?
Melissa

I believe David Austin is right about the hardiness of the climbing teas. A specimen of Cl. Lady Hillingdon grows in the open in a garden above Sweden's second largest lake, an ideal situation. It has been there for many years. People elsewhere grow it in pots inside and put it outside in summer. The bush form survives outside in the Stockholm area and blooms but stays very small.

The bush form survives outside in the Stockholm area and blooms but stays very small.

In Olga's yard, in USDA hardiness zone 6B in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC, Lady Hillingdon is 8' tall!

Another climbing tea I've previously read sometimes does pretty well in cooler climates than most teas tolerate is Gloire de Dijon.

Niels,

Just kidding?! I guess I'll just shelve my idea for a "Just Knockouts" forum for those of us who spend a great deal of time in mall parking lots.

I think this needs to be said:

With the past three weeks of very cold temperatures plus the two weeks of below freezing 24/7 temperatures, my roses and I all want to be on a tropical forum.

FWIW, Old Blushes still have leaves that sort of look alive while many other chinas teas and noisettes don't.

Thank you! Looks like I will have to get the climbing version of Lady Hillingdon plus Duchesse de Brabant.

Jeff