I think the belief is that the FD sold in commerce is really Barcelona. At least that is what Gregg (Vintage) told me recently. I just got Barcelona, because I love the pictures of FD that have been posted on this forum, so I hope it is the same rose.

Yes. That comment was written by hybridizer Kim Rupert, who is very familiar with both roses.
In fact, I added the Kim's explanation to the site, with his consent.

The rose we have in commerce does appear to be an early Kordes HT. We are left with the supposition that the true 'Francis Dubreuil' has been lost.
It's not like this sort of error has not happened before, after all.

Who knows? Perhaps some adventurous rose rustler, one day, will find the real rose.
:-)

Jeri

Jeri-- I certainly hope a rustler comes across the real FD. It would be an amazing find. I wonder if they have it somewhere in Europe or Down Under as yet undiscovered. Maybe someday we will see the real FD. It would be fun to compare the differences with Barcelona.

Jeri-- I certainly hope a rustler comes across the real FD

*** So do I!

It should, if found, ring a familiar bell, as dark red Teas aren't exactly
commonplace!
Add to the list of things we'd love to see turn up one day the real 'La Biche.'
Could happen . . .

Jeri

Which one it isn't doesn't really matter from a practical perspective. Either one is pure pot plant, never see the ground, spend the winter somewhere safe.

The pictures by Shinobu Inagaki on HMF are exquisite. I bought my little Nigrette after seeing his pictures of it, and I love it.

Which one it isn't doesn't really matter from a practical perspective. Either one is pure pot plant, never see the ground, spend the winter somewhere safe.

*** I must say, however, it is in the ground at the Stagecoach Inn Heritage Rose Garden near here.
Wholly inappropriate, of course -- but we didn't know that when we planted it.
And it is beautiful there, and loves the conditions, and is easily three feet tall and a generous bloomer.

But that's a mildly warm area of California . . .

Jeri

On HMF there is a beautiful in the ground bush shot of FD from Capitol Hill Garden in Maryland. I would think that if this rose can survive so beautifully there, it might work in some cold climates?

Understand that as an own-root rose (the only way I've seen it) Radiance is a failure here.

I hope that Vintage is still around next Spring when I would want to order B/FD.

Generally the roses I've gotten from Vintage need growing on in pots versus my usual grafted on multiflora's. One time I did that then forgot to water them, zap! Last year I actually "lost" Cerise Bouquet. Gone. Another rose appeared in the spot where I thought I had planted it.

Understand that as an own-root rose (the only way I've seen it) Radiance is a failure here.

*** I doubt that.
(Though I do agree that it is true of many HTs, which were more or less
bred/selected for use on rootstock.)

The own-root Red Radiance I rooted this spring rooted VERY quickly.
It's growing like a weed.
I intend to go back for Radiance, from the same garden.

Jeri

I should have done a search on FD but as I was interested in B I didn't think to do that. Well guess what there are about 20 sources of FD listed in the CRL! And there are two threads about it on GW! What's going on?

Not to mention that the ARS has it in their Encylopedia plus no doubt others as well.

I found a website which said Francis Dubreuil was a tailor whose grand daughter married Papa Meilland. A google search turned up a French website which had a rose with more of the classic antique rose shape called Francis Dubreuil.

Here is a link that might be useful: FD?

Washington, DC is NOT a cold area, for any West Coasters in the audience :) Even though it's technically a zone 7, usually it stays on the side of zone 8 (especially in town), and I pretty much never see any roses with dieback even in a zone 7 winter. We can easily grow rollicking specimens of Rosa gigantea, Rosa banksiae, teas, chinas, noisettes, and pretty much anything else you can name that won't die of blackspot during our oppressively hot and humid summers.

Further on this: Krista (ktopp) emailing to Peter Beales on other subjects brought up the FD/B controversy. Commenting to them that she thought the FD in commerce must be a tea. They agreed saying they were coonvinced that the FD they had was indeed a tea and further they had seen Barcelona and it was different.

So in search of the real Barcelona? I'll be in CA for Christmas so will try to contact that garden in LA, I forget its' name, and ask them. Maybe get a cutting?

Often when the subject of a certain rose comes up, I can think of something special about that rose that makes it extremely beautiful. In my garden the deep deep red is extremely beautiful. The darkness on the edges of the petals gives it a special charm to me, yet others call it a burn.

I have asked the technology guy in my school how I can change my camera to capture that red. He asked me to bring the camera to school and he would fix it. I am afraid to do that even though he is so good. I don't want everything to go dark. But that red won't photograph as dark as it is, and it is very special.

Sammy

Is there a chance Vintage may close??? We sure don't need to lose yet another old garden rose nursery! :-(

I had FD in a pot up north for a few years but his flowers fried even up there so I've been hesitant to get one here (loved the fragrance tho)...

Sammy, try taking those photos on an overcast day.
I love shooting when it is a little foggy. Bright sunlight really messes things up.

Peggy, for the present, at least, Vintage is in better shape.
But I think there is very little doubt that we will be losing more nurseries as the economy continues to slide.
In bad times, "discretionary" spending suffers.
I don't mind losing tanning parlors, but I sure mind losing independent, high-quality, knowledgeable nurseries.

I saw Gregg briefly last Thursday evening, at a tribute to Miriam Wilkins, done by the El Cerrito City Council. No time to speak, but it was good to see him (and Miriam!).

Jeri

The FD in my pot is from ARE.... dont know if they are all the same around the country, but I sure don't think this little guy is a tea!

Too twiggy, too small, not at all robust as teas go here in Texas. But that deep, velvety red and that heavenly damask rose scent are characteristics that make this a rose that I need no matter what its name! It has produced some hips this fall that are full of seed, and I eagerly await the possibility of a seedling.... open pollinated with the closest rose being "Carefree Beauty", it could produce interesting children....

FD/Barcelona is one of my very favorite roses. It grows well, in the ground, in my no spray garden, with minimum care. I've moved it twice--both times to improve its visibility because I love to look at it. It's wonderfully fragrant, even to my dull nose. The flowers are a beautiful dark red and it blooms generously, even after a traumatic transplant.

For me, name and class are details. Its a marvelous rose.

Colleen

I believe that all plants sold in the US are 'Barcelona', whether they are labeled as such, or as 'Francis Dubreuil'. And unless you have VERY forgiving conditions for culture, as Jeri does, grow it budded to a sturdy understock, or you can expect it won't grow much larger than a mid-sized miniature. Nice blooms though.

And unless you have VERY forgiving conditions for culture, as Jeri does, grow it budded to a sturdy understock,

*** Even here, I could not grow it as a vigorous plant. It does pretty well a few miles inland, at the Stagecoach Inn Heritage Rose Garden, but it was a weak dawg here.
I'd grow it budded in a heartbeat, though.

Jeri

Well thank you Paul: FD is B!

I'll just order one from Hortico. They supposedly offer it which may be an indication that it is hardier than a Tea. And really B.

I think I'm lost......

No No Jim -- You are FOUND!
It's one of those roses that is really lovely no matter what you want to call it.

Jeri