I forgot the ramblers.

Mme Sancy de Parabere - Pickering called it 'very winter hardy' but elsewhere only gave it a 6b. I think it might be my favorite though.
Long John Silver
Francois Juranville
Leontine Gervais
Bobbie James
Malvern Hills (Sorry, I had to throw an Austin in there.)

I planted a Henry Kelsey on the fence-line this summer. I'm not really one for color coordinating. I'd actually rather mix up a bunch of different colors and see what happens. Thoughts on this list?

There was also a suggestion from my other post about not using ramblers/climbers because my fence is only about 5 feet tall and instead I should maybe look at the larger varieties of the above categories. I'm open to any suggestion. I've got a lot of fence-line open.

Oh, and I noticed there are a lot of 'sold-outs' on the Pickering website. That's from this past summer, right? Not next season already? Thanks!

Fantin Latour gets rather large, in z4 garden he was abouts 6ft high and 4ft wide. Very lovely and very fragrant rose, also blooms for rather long time. Does not mind slight shade for part of the day, healthy as a horse.

Ulrich Brunner Fills I have in my current garden and so far not very impressed with him, but he is still young. To his defense, leaves stayed clean here and blooms do not ball in wet weather, but open properly. Also he seems to be a stable rebloomer, regardless the crappy weather we had (a lot of my other roses were v. unhappy with cold and rain in the autumn, but he did not mind).

Just out of curiosity, why are hybrid perpetuals difficult?

Most are quite prone to BS and require regular spraying program here on the east coast, good soil, regular watering,etc. Many of them were bred for beautiful flower, not fot the bush beauty or health. Don't get me wrong, I don't say don't grow them, just say they are more difficult than other roses on your list and I wouldn't start from them, as a beginner. There are always exceptions of course. Each class has its star performers and ugly ducklings, but in general they are divas, that require pampering.
Olga

With hybrid perpetuals it is a bit of a gamble, since they are somewhere in between once bloomers and modern roses. If to buy them for rebloom I would rather opt for Austins instead.

For HPs, often Mrs. John Laing is recommended to the begginer though.

I only grow a few on your list.

Compte de Chambord does get some blackspot. Louise Odier is very blackspot-prone. I have to prune them both to 3-4 feet each year after bloom to keep them from getting too tall.

Fantin Latour gets huge for me, I have to prune it way down after bloom every year. Does get a little blackspot but not enough to bother spraying.

Check out the albas--in my garden they are 100% blackspot-free.

I agree with elemire. If it's the old-fashioned OGR look you want plus fragrance, check out the Austins. I grow loads of them and they repeat far more than any OGR that is supposed to rebloom.

Mrs. John Laing has excellent repeat, but it is also VERY BS prone, real disaster.
I personally grow roses from all classes, including Austins and Old European OGRs, mostly I prefer once bloomers now. Oncebloomers are my favorite, because many of them are very fragrant AND healthy. They also grow into beautiful shrubs. All Austins here, even the most resistant in other areas, require regular spray program. But there are plenty of gallicas, albas, mosses, spinosissimas that are very healthy and self sufficient. They reward you each spring with breathtaking show and later step back and provide a good healthy background for other flowers. They are something to wait for in winter, like lilacs, peonies or other wonderful signs of spring. They are friendly and perfect for mixed gardens, where you grow many different plants. They are natural in this kind of garden. My favorite oncebloomers are early oriental yeloows, like Hugonis, Primula, Canary Bird, Cantabrigiensis, etc. They bloom the whole month earlier than other roses, here it means in April. Also, I really love ramblers, gallicas, some albas and mosses. But I tried everything before I made my choices.
Olga

Do I need to order soon? I noticed there are a lot of 'sold-outs' on the Pickering website. That's from this past summer, right? Not next season already? Thanks!

Zaphod,
I'd like to offer you a couple of suckers of some of my top faves, if you like. This is a great time of year to dig suckers and trade 'em.

For starters, this ought to do very well in your climate: 'Marianne'

{{gwi:324122}}

I have had a rose garden in zone 4 NY state for over 20 years. My first words of advice: choose roses you KNOW will be hardy for your first selections and experiment as you get more experience with your own particular climate (micro-climate).

GALLICAS
Charles de Mills excellent hardy rose
La Belle Sultane excellent hardy rose
Tuscany Superb excellent hardy rose

DAMASK and DAMASK PORTLANDS (Are those the same thing?) NO, stick with Damasks
Comte de Chambord good rose that may not be hardy reliably hardy in zone 5, is not hardy in zone 4
Marie Louise failed to thrive for me
Delambre failed to thrive for me
Duchess of Portland good low rose should be hardy in zone 5

CENTIFOLIA
Fantin Latour excellent big gangly rose, needs pruning to shape it

HYBRID PERPETUALS
Ulrich Brunner not reliably hardy z5
American Beauty not reliably hardy z5
Fischer Holmes no experience
Prince Camille de Rohan no experience

BOURBON
Louise Odier (This one is a fave, but I'm a bit perplexed as to where to put it due to the size listed as 7' H which is bigger than others.) not reliably hardy z5, BS prone

OK, here are some iron hardy and reliable roses for zone 5:

'Celsiana' Damask, tall slender canes, vase shaped shrub with beautiful slightly "crinkled" flowers
'Alba Semi-Plena' very tall to 7' upright vase shaped shrub with pretty white semi double flowers iron constitution
'Applejack' not an OGR but a great shrub rose for colder climates with good repeat 6' shrub
'Banshee' v. hardy small shrub with small double flowers
'Belle de Crecy' good reliable Gallica to about 3' suckers to form a thicket; one of G. S. Thomas' favorites
'Constance Spry' is the only Austin I would recommend; thin canes to 6' need the support of a trellis behind or as a large free standing shrub; huge exquisite flowers
'Hansa' is a rugosa and a real survivor, tall and upright to 6'
'Henri Martin' is very hardy and reliable and suckers around making for a large thicket.
'Ispahan' long thin canes to 7' mean it could use the support of other roses or shrubs, best in a mixed planting with shorter shrubs.
'Jens Munk' is a short rugosa, nice double flowers on a compact bush
'Kakwa' is generally among the first to bloom; long slender canes are self supporting makes a nice thicket, small double white flowers
'Lillian Gibson' makes a nice tall shrub that can use support; informal semi-double pink flowers
'Madame Hardy' is one of the best Damasks, makes an open 5' shrub with the some of the best flowers among all roses
'Metis' is a tall upright growing shrub to 6' with reddish canes and beautiful double pink flowers; an excellent rose
'Monte Rosa' is a new rugosa making an open shrub with informal double pink flowers that repeat well.
'Rosa Mundi' a beautiful striped Gallica somewhat short of stature, suckers freely
'Roseraie de l' Hay' is an iron clad hardy rose to 6' making a nicely shaped shrub
'Sarah Van Fleet' is another hardy rugosa to 7' with soft pink double flowers
'Scharlachglut' is derived from Gallicas and is a single flowering shrub with red flowers so bright you can enjoy from the across the yard; it makes a huge vase shaped shrub to 7' and has exceptional hips
'Stanwell Perpetual' the best of the hybrid spinosissimas with soft pink to white flower very double and fragrant; a small shrub to 3'
'Therese Bugnet' is not technically an OGR but a classic already for those who grow roses in cold climates, soft pink very double flowers on a 6' shrub

While there is nothing wrong with Pickering as a vendor AFAIK, they provide their roses budded on multiflora which I DO NOT recommend. For all the roses listed above you are better off with own root plants. There are several vendors that are well respected on this board; do a little research.

My opinion is different from Palustris. Pickering Roses on multiflora roots should be better than own root for WI.
Other arguments aside (size,etc) gallicas, if grown own root, will sucker like crazy. Grafted on multiflora they stay where they are, which is very important, unless you want garden full of Charles de Mills and nothing else :(
Olga

FYI, Pickering buds their modern roses to R. multiflora, but many of their OGRs are budded onto Laxa. I am quite sure that all of their Gallicas, Damasks, Spinosissimas, Portlands and perhaps also the Hybrid Perpetuals are grown on Laxa, not multiflora.

Growing Gallicas as own-root shrubs is an excellent way to grow them, but something that must be taken into account is how much you want to manage a thicket of Gallicas. Which is to say, most Gallicas grown on their own roots will form thickets as they sucker out in an ever expanding colony of shoots. Case in point: I have "a plant" of 'Charles de Mills' in one location that is nearing 12 years old and has been allowed to spread as it wishes; it is now a colony of suckers that has spread to over 20 feet in diameter. Some growers do not want that kind of result, in which case you want to seek out grafted plants which are less inclined to permit that.

Palustris offers an excellent list of choice varieties, but I would add a personal caveat: I will no longer grow any Hybrid Perpetuals. With the exception of perhaps 'Reine des Violettes', all of them suffer tragically from Blackspot and often Mildew as well. Also, most bloom only twice a year: Spring and Fall. In USDA zone 5, you stand to lose a fair bit of the year's growth to freeze damage as well (YMMV, of course) in which case you will lose a lot of the best blooming wood. Go with 'Stanwell Perpetual' instead. It is one of the real treasures of the OGR bunch, and a near-perfect rose in many ways. Same can be said for 'Therese Bugnet', although I wish it was a bit freer with bloom at mid-Summer.

Paul Barden

Olga,
You and I were apparently on the very same page at that moment! *laughs*

"Do I need to order soon? I noticed there are a lot of 'sold-outs' on the Pickering website. That's from this past summer, right? Not next season already?"

Zaphod, in case this has not been answered, these 'sold-outs' are for the current season (fall-summer). They will have new inventory next fall.

Zaphod,
I'm not one to give advice as I am brand new. However, I have had Reine des Violette for 2 seasons. It is one of the most blackspot-free roses I have. I have done the MNtip with it so far because I thought I had to but, Millefleurs grows it and does less extensive winter protection.

I like the Austin's as well because I need at least some that bloom more than once a year that aren't Rugosas. They are, at least part, OGR. Your being in zone 5 should make them easier to grow than they are here.

There's got to be some OGRs that repeat (at least somewhat) that are hardy here. I'm still looking.

Best wishes,
Kitty

I personally adore Hybrid Perpetuals, but I live in a climate where there disease issues are diminished. You might consider experimenting with them in the future. I just wanted to say that most of the hardy, disease resistant roses people are recommending are once bloomers. Now there is nothing wrong with once bloomers. I grow several of them here in a climate that does not demand them. I just wanted to point out that by adding rudosa varieties to the mix you would also have some hardy, disease resistant repeat bloomers.

Also Stanwell Perpetual, repeat blooming hybrid spinnosisima. They changed the name of this class to something even harder to pronounce or recall, but that will get you where you need to go. Love this rose.

Rosefolly

Well, thanks to everyone who weighed in, I've chosen four to order now for next spring. They are: Tuscany Superb, Francois Juranville, Madame Hardy and Henry Martin. I also want Charles de Mill, but that is out of stock at Pickering and will have to wait for a later date. Jens Munk is an alternate and may be a last minute in or out decision.

Just to clarify, it seems that if I buy these older varieties in own root (Heirloom) they'll take over my yard and be huge. Buying them grafted keeps them smaller and more self contained?

No , the own root will not be huge, they just will produce thousands of suckers (baby plants, connected by root to the main plant). Chareles de Mills, for example can produce suckers 10-15 feet away from the main plant.
Olga

Madame hardy is very nice, there was a thread a while back in the gallery with elaborate pics of her. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Madame Hardy in Gallery

I was going to mention the suckering issue, but Olga and Paul beat me to it. So I'll tackle the flip side- grafted Gallicas and Spinosissimas. Since they produce new canes by suckering, and grafting prevents them from doing that, after a few years, they sometimes can't produce new canes from the bud union, and slowly die as one cane after another gets old and dies. The Heritage Rose Garden has lost many of it's original Gallicas and Spins that way. It's a difficult choice- a long lived plant that suckers or a shorter lived plant that doesn't. The spins don't sucker as far from the middle of the original plant as the gallicas do, so you should try to get them own-root.

Jill

A sea of Chuck! My husband will have a good laugh at this. We have indeed a sea of them, all from a grafted plant. We bury the graft very deeply over here so the true rose can easily form its own roots above the graft, if so inclined. Belle de Crécy is another, Nuits de Young is the third, but I've no such problems with any other grafted rose.

I agree completely with Olga's comments. I believe I'm in a similar climate but mine is drier with a little less BS.

Jill, this could be climate specific. I don't have issues with producing new canes on old grafted gallicas (or spinosissmas). Some of my gallicas in this garden are about 10 year old.
Olga

10 years is not such a long time. most of my roses are older than that and I would be annoyed not to get twice as long from them. Jill, I had not been aware that this was a problem with grafted roses but it does explain the shrinking size of R.primula and the Dunwich rose (about 12 years old). They are a nightmare to propagate too so I might just have to replace them with new ones or maybe hope for some good seedlings.

I understand that 10 years is not such a long time,this is why I mentioned "in this garden". Gallicas I planted on laxa roots 30+ years ago are still going strong in another garden. My raltives are still enjoying them with just basic maintanence care. My 10 year old are still producing plenty of new canes every year, so I don't see any signes of decline. I do have to prune them to promote development of new canes, but I believe any class of roses benefit form cutting older canes (more than 3 year old) to the ground .
Olga

Climate certainly also affects our gallicas- we gave up on the Apothecary Rose- it's like an annual in San Jose. At my house in Santa Cruz, Rosa Mundi has three canes, each a couple inches high. It's been like that for ten years and has bloomed twice. But my CdM, own root, is all over the place and quite happy. Gallica-China hybrids like that are quite happy here, and the grafted ones in San Jose are happy, too. The hybrid spins are also fine grafted. But the purer spins that naturally produce a thicket of canes have only survived the 15 years the garden has been there if they were planted deep enough to become own-root.

It is likely to be a climate issue--I visited a historical house in Litchfield Connecticut with many very large Spinosissimas--the latest ARS annuals in the book case were in the 1970s. Like many historical gardens, these plants actually survived years of neglect.

Not in your climate, so i'm not qualified to comment other than that Scharlachglut , as mentioned by palustris, also has red stems that are beautiful in winter and would be spectacular against snow. It is another Kordes rose that, like most of his, is bullet proof and huge. Also, Austin's Gertrude Jekyll can substitute for Comte Chambord. They are virtually the same rose (Comte is a parent of Jekyll). Neither Comte nor Jekyll has much B.S. in my garden but I read that many find Comte prone to B.S. So why did Austin choose to introduce Jekyl, since it's bloom and plant habit is nearly indistinguishable from the famous Comte? (For me Jekyll is slightly more vigorous.) Could it be that Jekyll is more B.S. resistant in your climate? Both Comte and Jekyll are among the most fragrant roses grown. Branches from all three of these great roses would make splendid weapons.

Re: B.S. resistance of Gertrude Jekyll. Just read in another thread that Jekyll is also prone to blackspot and mildew. So maybe there is no reason for it other than it is a little more vigorous than Comte. So if you can't grow Comte d C. because of B.S. you probably can't grow Jekyll either.

I will weigh in on a few: I have several gallicas. My favorite is tuscany superb. This is a must have, it is lovely very dark maroon. Own root, 3 feet tall, not spreading habit, kind of upright.
Also being that I am in zone 5, I have had luck with rose de rescht. Which reblooms very well and has a great scent. own root, 3 feet tall, upright.
Kind of spotty, but I do not spray OGRs and do not mind much in the way of spots.
You do not have this one on your list, but my favorite is felicite parmentier. Very long blooming and great scent. Only have had this 2 years, 4 feet tall and upright, not sprawling either. But again, a young shrub, from pickering, grafted.
The only problem I have had with the once blooming ogrs is the deers (or another critter?) during the winter nipping off the tips of the canes. I put a fence around them this year and it seems so far to have worked.

Just wanted to add:

Firstly, Charles de Mills is a beautiful Gallica and certainly hardy, but tends to sucker even more than most other gallicas. This one is definitely adventurous! So be prepared :)

And about Comte de Chambord. First off, I believe that the difference between Damask and Damask-Portland (a cross) is rebloom. Damasks are once-bloomers, Damask-Portlands will rebloom. Comte De Chambord is a damask-portland and will rebloom.

I am zone 5, although different than your zone 5, and the rose is in it's 4th year in my garden. Size is about 5 ft high, 3 ft wide - This rose tends to be more upright, it seems. Also, it tends to have what I think it called Damask crud, or something like that, and can blackspot, (I don't spray and its not too bad) but the blooms are phenomenal - beautiful and smell heavenly.

And it is hardy in my Canadian zone 5 garden. I don't mulch the roots over-winter anymore (I did for the first year or so as is was getting established), and it does just fine. Doesn't even die to the ground or anything. I'll prune off about 1/3 length of the canes in the spring because of dead growth, but that's about it. Pretty decent, considering :) Don't let hardiness-issues put you off this one.

The only rose on your list that I've grown is Prince Camille de Rohan. I'm out in California in a much different zone, but I can tell you what it was like for me--disappointing. The blooms that is. The plant seemed to be perfectly healthy for me, and I've never sprayed a rose, so it wasn't because of that. No signs or rust, blackspot (not a problem in CA anyway) or mildew. But I wanted and expected *dark* red, almost black, and he didn't deliver that. More a medium red. Double, but not the packed with petals that I like best. These blooms were just nothing special, blah. The plant grew to about 3 or 3 1/2 feet tall. Had as his neighbors the beautious Rose de Rescht which had much more impressive flowers and more of them, and on the other side the dreadful mildew magnet Europeana (to all intents and purposes a white-leafed rose there was so much mildew!)