Jackie, do you mean to say you're telling us all this fascinating information without furnishing us with a picture of the newly excavated Duchesse de Brabant? We'd like to see what you're talking about please. It's interesting to speculate that these roses were planted at the same time and that Le Vesuve was allowed to reach its huge size. Someone must at one time have known that DdB was buried in its thorny embrace. Lucky you to live in house with a garden that has such ancient roses!

Ingrid

No, no, no, Ingrid, hasn't your "Jackie" imagination developed yet. See it in your mind because ain't no pics coming. :))

Jackie, you tell an amazing scene of antiquated antique roses. How astonishing that that DdB has survived UNDER Le Vesuve, waiting for her first chance at sunshine in decades to burst forth in new growth. It confirms my experience that she tolerates shade well and even prefers a little respite from my intense heat. Re trimming her, I can relate how much fuller my Hermosas looked yesterday after trimming back their legginess just a couple of inches a week or two ago. I was shocked to see their bushiness. I do literally mean a 2 or 3 inch trim, just to the nearest budeye. (I'm such a chicken!) It made a huge difference. I think I would clip your DdB back now about several inches all over (got a cherry-picker?) and watch her go to town. You have a very exciting garden, Jackie. A horticultural archeology site. Btw, photos really would be sweet.

Sherry

My god, these tales of giants! I would only be able to fit 4 of these in my whole garden!
Still, I agree, Jaqueline, I like to see plants growing in the natural inclinations and I especially like a somewhat overgrown tumble (which is just as well). Your roses sound so lovely, tough and just what a woody shrub ought to be like, to my mind.
BTW, Once canes start arching horizontally, I am usually happy to leave them be as long as you can get past them,(I love the fountain look) since lots more blooms generally initiate on the resulting orgy of new laterals. These new green shoots are the branches I keep orderly (ish)

I'm not sure what to say by way of advice. This is so interesting. I hope the three of them live forever.

Thanks for all of your comments - I think I will just leave the DdB to do what it wants, except for pruning the bits that have fallen into the path. I am awaiting next Spring anxiously, to see what it does, as well as to see if the old LV recovers at all.

Re huge roses - I do think it is our climate that allows so many of my roses to get so large - much larger than any of the books, etc. say. We have a 12 month growing season. Yesterday it was 82 degrees, and it is supposed to be the same today. Of course, this is NOT usual for mid November- we are usually into cool rain by now. Many of the roses in my garden (esp the old ones) are still setting new buds, blooming, and even putting up brand new canes. It is a good thing, because I am such a haphazard gardener that this way they grow no matter what I do!

Jackie

Well you ought to get some rain this weekend. I see that the whole bay area, even down here in the south bay, are expecting a rainy weekend, and it's about time! Further north they've had decent rain but down here we've had less than an inch so far this rain year (July-June).

I think that in the winter my own roses do slow way down, though only in rare colder years do they go completely dormant. I had once read that in very warm climates roses are shorter-lived because they grow year-round and end up exhausting themelves. I think your garden proves that this theory has some flaw.

Rosefolly

Jackie -- I love this story -- Every bit of it.
You have such a wonderful resource, and you've been so generous in sharing its story.

Next time we roll North, we've got to come get some photos of your gracious Old Ladies.

Jeri

yep rosefolly (Paula, Pam?) I have also read the same thing but obviously, Jaqueline's roses prove otherwise regarding the short lifespan. I still cannot quite get it into my head, how a 12month cycle might work unless the roses act like evergreens and shed leaves constantly or otherwise, toxins would build up to intolerable levels.

I had never heard the theory that roses live shorter lives in warm climates - interesting. Perhaps they were talking about grafted HTs? (For some reason, I have noticed that some folks in the last 50-60 years said things about "roses" when what they were really talking about were HT roses.)

The really old roses I have are chinas or teas (or hybrids thereof like LV), or polyanthas. They are all on their own roots, or at least they are by now. I have never seen a "sucker" on any of them. Maybe they are closer genetically to the roses that are native to warm climates than whatever ones that theory applies to, and so of course they are happier in warm climates. Just guessing...

Re shedding leaves, I have not paid much attention, but I have the vague idea that the old beat up leaves do fall off as the new growth emerges, whether that is in the Fall/Winter or especially the Spring. When I said 12 month growing season I did not mean to imply that the roses bloom as much in the Winter, it's just that they never altogether stop (I can remember one winter 20 years ago when they did stop - it was below 20 degrees F here for 2 weeks, day and night, without stopping. Lost several plants, but none of the roses, even the chinas or teas.) I love discovering rose "conventional wisdom" that turns out to be wrong-does anyone remember a source for the "roses do not live as long in warm climates" theory?

Jackie

Suzy, now that you mention it, there are two reasons Fortuniana rootstock is preferred in Florida. The first is nematodes. The second is lack of dormancy which for Dr Hughey and others is detrimental because they do "tire out" without a rest period and are short-lived here because of it. A few nights of 20 degrees scattered throughout our winter is not enough to cause them to go dormant when the days are 70 and higher. The Chinas and teas do cycle through leafing out, blooming, partial defoliating and re-leafing... They are evergreen to the extent that they aren't bare for a season - unless it's HOT and they don't have enough water. Ask me how I know. This lack of winter dormancy is why grafted roses here are not much more than annuals, and then if they last a few years the nematodes get them. The Chinas and teas are just comfortable in warm climates with warm soil. They don't need to rest, and apparently, it doesn't prematurely age them as Jackie's roses demonstrate so well. It is said that they will rest from blooming in high summer heat, but Le Vesuve and many others don't. Maybe my heat isn't high enough. I'll have to keep track of that. I do think it's wonderful that God made roses grow in sub-tropical Asia and caused exploring horticulturalists to bring them here. Perfect roses for Florida.

Sherry

Jackie, what a fighter that old 'Duchesse de Brabant' is to survive under the other rose, lying in wait for its chance at the sunlight. The Duchesse is my favorite tea so I'm glad to hear this.

I like your comments about how you like to let your old roses grow into their natural form as much as possible. That naturally graceful form is what makes the old roses so different from most hybrid teas, floribundas, etc. I have an old hybrid musk rose (Nur Mahal) that has such a graceful form that when I approach it with the pruners I always wind up saying "Naw, not gonna do it" and move on.

Randy

Jacqueline3,

I just bought a DdB and haven't planted it yet. Can you tell me what size yours is and how old? I need to take that into consideration as I prepare to plant her.

Thanks!
Xta;

Xta - mine is 8 feet tall, and looks like it will be at least 6-7 feet wide & 6-7 feet deep. However, it is also 80-100 years old. Our climate is a bit warmer than yours, too. I have a baby one that I rooted from the old one - after 2 years it is still only about 2 feet high - I think they start out slow, and then take off madly in year 3 or 4. Good Luck!

jackie

Jacqueline,

Thanks so much for that info. I'll select a place for her carefully. The highway dept. will be taking my house in 5 years. But, I'll transplant everything possible. After I see her bloom a few times, I'm sure she'll be making the move, too.

I have a friend who has an Archduke Charles and has moved it several times till his current resident of 30 years, it's over his eaves. It pays to be good to your roses.

Wow, yours is big. Thanks!
Xtal