I think you have an intriguing idea! Is there any way to get in touch with the people at Sangerhausen and ask them questions about their Teas' hardiness and about what (if anything) they do to winter protect their more tender roses? You could also, more laboriously, comb through the literature searching for information about the Sangerhausen Teas' behavior in colder zones, and solicit feedback from people who live in zone 6 and grow these Teas. Good luck!

Melissa

I meant to add to my original post roses that could be hardier ones (and actually available):

Adam
Anna Olivier
Archiduc Joseph
Baronne Henriette de Snoy
Catherine Mermet
Charles Dingee
Clementina Carbonieri
Général Schablikine
Gilbert Nabonnand
Kaiserin Friedrich
Madame Antoine Mari
Madame Bravy (really like this one)
Madame Falcot
Mademoiselle Franziska Krüger
Mrs. B.R. Cant
Safrano
Souvenir de Pierre Notting
William R. Smith

Eric

Eric:
I have Clementina and Souvenir Pierre N and both have survived winters in zone 6. They are slow to become established. My Souvenir Pierre doesn't get the kinds of blooms that Tivoli Rose had on her Souvenir. I think she may be zone 7 on Long Island and that may be the difference. I don't do anything extraordinary in the way of winter cover. Maybe some shredded leaves on the ground but so far, so good!

Hi Melissa. I may try to contact Sangerhausen, worth shot. I'd be interested to see how big they got there.

Carol, thanks you for letting me know some that grow for you. I checked out Clementina on HMF and I like the colors and how they blend. How long have you been growing yours and what is the size?

Eric

It is very difficult to get information from Sangerhausen-even if you speak German which would be a first requirement. Very few adults speak English. They dont seem to be set up to answer questions. I know they do go to extremes to protect their roses from their sometimes severe climate. They take the climbers down from the posts and simply replace a large part of their HT's every year. They have huge greenhouses where they grow replacements. They are friendly and nice people but somehow there doesnt seem to be any easy way to access the information. I would give it a try for sure but if you dont speak German do try to find someone who does to send your question. The Garden Director Thomas Hawel does speak some English but even his secretary does not.

patricia

eric, I planted some teas and chinas this spring, so i'll see how they get through this winter. I read an interesting article once on chinas that said you an grow them in zone 6 but they usually die to the ground every year. My safrano band died but i think it's because i planted it in a spot that was overly protected. i even have a devoniensis that only started to grow after the freezes we've been having. safrano and devoniensis are from the same breeding but dev. is rated zone 8 and safrano zone 7, go figure. If the dev., cl ever does grow well i will probably be in trouble as it is right in front of the house and in front of my utility room window. so much for having confidence they will survive. I have mixed feelings about tender roses, in one way i say why grow them when there are so many hardy roses to buy and the other says buy what you like the best and heck with the zone ratings. In a bad year like the easter freeze we had a couple years ago, even hardy roses were lost, so i say go for it. It got down to 19 last night and mme. francesca kruegar, mme. antoine reba and devoniensis still look wonderful with no sign of frozen death,lol.

Hi Patricia, thanks for the info about Sangerhausen. I'd love to learn German (one of my long-term goals)...would definitely help in genealogy, most of the info is in German. I wonder if English fluency is less common in the former Eastern Germany areas.

Len, currently I'm growing Lady Hillingdon and Hermosa...they are the big experiment for the Winter. We are well into a typical late Fall/Winter, tonight's low is forecast as 18..ack. I really like the twiggy habit of the teas and the crumpled tissue paper look of the blooms. We'll see how Duchesse de Brabant does next Winter. I've heard that Lady Hillingdon is the hardiest tea, hoping DdB will be the 2nd hardiest.

I may try the china Le Vesuve since Olga has had luck with it. If there any hardier roses that can impersonate a tea in habit and bloom form....I'm open.

Thanks,

Eric

Yes, English is less common in the former GDR-they learned Russian in school. The New Director is fairly young but would have started his English fairly late in school I think. He can manage given time but is not fluent. I wonder where they have found the English teachers they need for the school system. The Librarian at the town library did not speak any Engish. That was this past spring.
Speaking of Teas, I have tried in vain to grow them here. It is not that cold but stays chilly for a long time and the night temps in the summer are usually relatively cold. They dont freeze here, they just dwindle away. I dont see many blooms. Chinas on the other hand do very well.

patricia

Eric and Patricia,
I'm out of practice, but I speak German. Would it be possible to pool our knowledge/interest/experiences and contact the Rosarium?
Melissa

Eric, you may find this interesting inspite of our different zones. I have LeVesuve since this past March so it's still young. It thumbed it's nose at the all-day overbearing southwestern sun, never lost a leaf to BS or shut down in the heat. Easily the best heat-wise in my young garden with Mons Tillier a close second - no one else in the running (except maybe Smith's Parish - healthiest bush in the world but not many blooms yet.) BUT we've had several nights lately around 30 degrees. LeVesuve, though small, has been in full bud & bloom, but I notice the blooms and buds are limp - and even a new cane still with red growth is limp. The buds look like they won't be opening. None of my other roses have responded like this, and many have brand new growth. I don't know if this means anything. I have watered real well lately as the only protection against the cold. Maybe it's this plant's youth, but I don't think it likes cold. Since Olga grows it in Zone 6, maybe it won't be an issue when it matures. I just think it's very curious for this rose to look zapped by these temps.

Granted, our temps aren't real frigid (at worst in the low 20s), but it amazes me that roses here which, of course, don't go dormant don't seem to care about low temps - even tiny, new plants. I doubt that I'll be covering many plants this winter (have you ever seen a "blanketed" Florida yard in winter? It's a funny sight with sheets and tarps trying to hold in the ground heat for the tropicals that thrive the rest of the year.) With all roses and a few azaleas, I don't think I'll need to worry this year.

Sherry

I visited Sangerhausen couple of months ago (early September) and took some photos, also of the teas growing there. Unlike the roses of other classes, none of the teas did seem to be really happy or established, the more so when you consider that many teas are at their best in fall, not in the springtime. But judge for yourselves:

[IMG]http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6408/martinarosariumbf9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/1269/perlevonhgs5.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4237/souvdepierrenottinglaubhl3.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7894/teerosenkaiserinaugustemk1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/1934/teerosenbeetef4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/5461/willrsmithee3.jpg[/IMG]

I was born in Eastern Germany, not far from Sangerhausen, and you're right, patriciae, we were all forced to learn Russian (instead of English or French) from age 10. Gardening was considered a "bourgeois pastime", therefore the people working at the Rosarium were certainly regarded as some sort of outcasts. They have my unconditioned admiration for their huge effort to preserve OGRs.
Since I was going to contact the Director of the Europa-Rosarium anyway, now that I've learnt that some of you share my doubts about how they grow and overwinter their teas, I will speed up and let you know their answers.
Elke

Elke
That is wonderful. Please give Herr Hawel my best. I have wondered if he recieved the last thank you Email I sent him. We were having connection troubles. He was so kind and helpful to me in such a busy time of year for him. His english was good but I doubt he gets much practice there and of course the details of rose growing is not the sort of English he knows nor the sort of the very little German I know. My companion who is fluent is German is not fluent in rose. Between you and Melissa it would be wonderful to have a conduit into the amzing store of information there.
From the pictures it seems the teas are being grown like the Hybrid Teas-very much like bedding plants. It was the desire of my heart to see into those greenhouses but I could not impose and ask. They were just too busy. I will just have to go back.

patricia

Wow, what great responses on this thread. The ability to share knowledge is awesome. It gives me food for thought about trying more teas. I certainly don't want poor little stunted bushes that keep getting knocked down and not able to achieve their attractive full form.

Patricia, thank you for sharing your experiences with Sangerhausen.

Melissa, thanks for offering your German skills :)

Sherry, that's interesting about Le Vesuve. It reminds me of the new red growth of Lady Hillingdon that got zapped by the frost. We'll see how Hermosa comes through the Winter, that'll definitely be a factor.

Elke, thank you so much for the pictures and describing the teas you saw. On the flip side, it makes me wonder what the Albas, Damasks, and Gallicas look like (good I imagine). I second the commendation of the gardeners who kept Sangerhausen going.

Eric

The once bloomers were what I went for. they were fabulous. I was photographing Gallicas and Mosses mainly-but not the sort of pictures that anyone wants to look at...I was looking for ID characteristics. I was early enough on my first visit for the Species and Spinosissimas and they were outstanding. I returned a couple of weeks later for the rest. The bourbons were also in bloom. The cold hardy roses are huge and robust. They have an enormous collection of climbers which they actually take down to protect the sensitive ones. The Rosarium is around 37 acres so it is huge. You cant imagine the scope of the place and it is impossible to photograph it in a way that shows how large it is. The care of the roses is outstanding. It is amazing to me that in an area that is hard on things like Hybrid Teas and the more tender moderns they go to such lengths to have them in their collection. They have huge beds of Hybrid perpetuals that I would love to be around to see bloom-only the earliest were blooming. Those were grown bedded out as well. Amazing place

patricia

Eric:
My Clementina is two years old is about 2-3 ft tall. The teas in my garden take a while to become established. We've had some really cold temps in the past few days and I haven't done any mulching yet. Hopefully Clemmie will hang in there.

Eric:
Given the time of year I visited Sangerhausen, the Albas, Damasks and Gallicas were not in bloom but as Patriciae stated, they were big and healthy. Another outstanding place for roses of those classes (and HPs) is the Botanical Garden in Copenhagen (see link:
http://botanik.snm.ku.dk/english/samlinger/databaser/dokument2/
I had a few hours to visit it this year during a business trip in early July and the roses were gorgeous, even in the non-stop pouring rain that day.
For those of you who read German, here is a link to an article on winterhardiness of roses, written by the renowned rosarian Christine Meile:
http://www.rareroses.net/ThemenRareWinter.html
As promised, I wrote an email to the Director of the Rosarium in Sangerhausen today and am looking forward to his answer.
Elke

The people in Sangerhausen finally answered my email, apologizing for the delay. I had tried to resume the questions from the forum members in 5 points and these are Mr. Hawel's answers (I translated them as best as I could):
"1. Tea roses in Sangerhausen overwinter strictly in the open. Our stock is 99% grafted, so, the grafting spot is covered generously with soil and the parts of the plant still sticking out are protected with fir or spruce brushwood. During the recent, fairly mild winters these measures were sufficient to prevent tea roses from being damaged, but this year temps. dropped to  23°C so there might be some losses. Besides, I have noticed that tea roses tolerated very well the extraordinary heat spells of recent years (e.g. May 2008), reacting with an amazing vegetative growth during those hot periods. This proves that tea roses do not find optimum conditions in our continental climate.
2. In addition to the cultivars that you already mentioned (Lady Hillingdon, Le Vesuve, Duchesse de Brabant, Hermosa) I would probably suggest ÂComtesse de NogheraÂ, ÂClementina CarbonieriÂ, ÂCatherine MermetÂ, ÂFrancis DubreuilÂ, ÂSouvenir de Thérèse Levet and ÂTroja as teas doing fairly well in our climate. The same is true for ÂNiphetosÂ, despite its reputation in literature as a tender tea rose. In general, during harsh winters tea roses here can suffer from bad freezes only to start sprouting nicely right after the spring pruning (often immediately above the grafting point). We are much more worried by the susceptibility to fungal diseases observed in many tea roses.
3. There is a wide range of age in our teas. While the less vigorous cultivars are grafted afresh each year to be substituted in the following year, other cultivars can stay bedded in their spot for over 10 years without requiring any rejuvenating.
4. The information on the Âhelpmefind website has not been officially provided by the Europa-Rosarium. The lists of cultivars shown there have probably been drawn by committed private persons from some of our published rose lists and then inserted by them into the web-page. In this connection IÂd like to say that our notions on many roses are subject to frequent changes, especially teas are rather problematic in this regard. Therefore, we are planning to publish by the summer of 2009 an official rose list that will be directly available from us.
5. The visitors at the Europa-Rosarium have free access to our greenhouse. We keep there a number of roses that would have trouble when grown outside, exposed to our climate."

Hi Elkey,

Thanks so much for following up and posting this information. Nothing like first-hand accounts from the actual staff. We hitting some sub-zero temperatures here and I'm rethinking growing teas at all. If my Lady Hillingdon makes if through that's fine..but I don't know if want to fret each time it gets cold...and I don't think I'll be protecting with fir and spruce brushwood anytime soon :)

Thanks again,

Eric

I have to say thanks here to Elke for getting us this information. What a wonderful resource. I am certainly going to have to try some of the listed Teas. I think that Frances Dubreuil is the only one for me that has lived and actually bloomed.
It breaks my heart that I did not ask about the greenhouses-They were so amazingly busy and I just did not ask. Dumb.
I will have to watch the website for news of the new listings. I know they have been doing DNA testing on about 500 of their old roses and they must be planning on publishing it in the new list of 2009..Ah que diche!

patricia