Welcome to the lunatic fringe. I agree with you. Maybe there are places where growing virused roses doesn't matter. I don't garden there.

Yes, Jody,
As berndoodle says, welcome to the lunatic fringe.
And to the enlightenment that follows.
And to the anger as well.
A plant pathologist in Texas told me that he tried to get 'the industry' to put out a line of guaranteed virus free roses in the 50's and could get no interest. He's retired now, farming and doesn't grow roses.
Now take a look at some of the comments of Jeri in CA who talks about the found roses, the survivors that just may be healthier than the ones that didn't survive.

I second and third Cass and Ann.

Yes, this is all true for me as well. I am trying roses again that I decided were no good before I knew about the RMV and what it does to plants. The sad thing is, seeing a new rose available that you really want and not being able to find a no virus plant. So do you spend the money to buy the plant that's probably sick until you can find a healthy one? I have been planting roses that have been said by the grower to be free of RMV and the difference is astonishing. I wish there were more places to buy healthy plants. Sad that roses still get sold on RMV infected rootstock and that is the only way you can buy some of the newer imports.

Sad that roses still get sold on RMV infected rootstock

Also sad that own root plants are also sold infected.

I saw a non-virused plant of Mister Lincoln in a local garden. Wow! It was the fullest, bushiest thing you can imagine, and loaded with blooms. Compare that to the ones we usually see with RMV, which are rather sparse and miserly. Big difference!

It is sad that we don't have control over RMV when we do have effective treatment available. Once I was surprised to find an own root OGR with RMV, not surprised to see it happen, but surprised that the supplier had no interest in making reference of the disease for his data base. Hopefully the cost of making a rose virus free will be more cost effective one day. I would be interested in seeing a list of roses that are known to have RMV. I know that any rose can have the virus through the rootstock, but it would be helpful to know which roses to avoid.
Diana
Diana

Part of the problem is that the virus symptoms aren't as pronounced in warm climates. But RMV really affects the hardiness and health of roses in cold zones. Guess where most of the big growers are located? Down South where it isn't as much of a problem and I'm not talking about where the office is but the growing fields. UC Davis offers a lot of indexed cuttings if your good at rooting. I'm not, unfortunately, or I'd start growing a lot of them myself from cuttings. Thanks for the tip about Heirloom, Jody, I'll check it out.

Could somebody please give me a prognosis on RMV. I have several roses with this. Some new over the last two years from our Canadian well knowned suppliers. I always thought that it did not interfere with growth and blooms too much, just zig-zaggidy leaves. I think I need to be more educated. (I think I have a couple of disgusting roses which will be shovel pruned before next season), which tells me what I oariginally thought as just yellow zig-zagged leaves, is way more detrimental.
Thanks, Pauline.

Part of the problem is that the virus symptoms aren't as pronounced in warm climates.

Seil, RMV may not be pronounced in zone 10 in California or Florida but they certainly pronounced in coastal zone 8. I hate looking at 'variegated' foliage on plants that should not have it. In addition, since Ann referred to that article about root transmission and I read that paper I am even more worried.

Moodyblue that is interesting. Which roses did you get with RMV from Canada? So far I didn't see RMV on any of my roses that had come from Canada.

Ceterum, I will go out tomorrow and identify the roses, and hopefully know which ones I received from where. I may have to go back to the order forms. But will get back a.s.a.p.
Pauline - Vancouver Island.

Thanks moodyblue! I would truly appreciate it.

If it is not too much to ask, would you pst photos of those RMV-d leaves as well?

Many thanks in advance.

I also would like to see a list of roses not available unvirused. My Cl Sun Flare has virus markings, and I am informed, on another forum, that it probably can't be bought unvirused. Virused Don Juan, which I sped, was a horrible sight. Don Juan, fortunately, is available virused indexed.

Minimum order from UC Davis is now $25., down from $100. a few years ago. If all us who like to experiment with propagation would support them, maybe they could add more varieties.

Nastarana - I understand about Don Juan - my first one was very heavily marked. I have two clean ones now that are causing my tardy DH much grief (he didn't get around to building their arches - and now it is "long canes everywhere").

Seil - I purchase regularly from Ashdown and Roses Unlimited. My experience with them has been that they will replace any rose purchased from them that proves to be virused. I plan to buy roses from them forever and ever amen, so I don't care about the refund/replacement (which would probably languish in a pot for awhile anyway) -- I just want them to remove the rose from their inventory until they can find a clean plant. That increases my confidence that my future purchases from them will be RMV free. In other words, I want them to listen to me, believe me and react appropriately. Everyone takes a hit - vendor and gardener alike from plants with RMV. Because of my relationship with these vendors I'll take the dollar hit for a rose bush as my vote of confidence.

When I know that the plants available in commerce are widely virused, I look to Heirloom. Their plants are very small and there is no price break. For that you get a guaranteed virus free plant, you support the continued cleaning up of the RMV mess and you support their breeding program.

Berndoole - the lunatic fringe??? Surely not. I don't see any difference between the search for RMV free rose bushes and the search for mildew resistant garden phlox -- in other words I'm look for healthy plants that will have a long life. I thought that given the history of RMV now, it wouldn't be considered a fringe topic :-)

Petaloid: I have an ownroot virus indexed Mister Lincoln and an ownroot virus indexed Veterans Honor planted together. My DH calls that part of the garden "the land of jolly red giants". They are absolute show stoppers and guess what? -- they don't break out in spots every time I miss a spray either. Healthy is good.

RMV makes a world of difference. Once upon a time I grew primarily Hybrid Teas. I had a terrible time with DOUBLE DELIGHT. Black spotty, poor vigor, good repeat but the plant looked retched. All died on me from rapid decline and all showed RMV. I finally got a clean clone; repeat, disease resistance, and especially vigor were significantly better.

I won't even buy grafted any more and the first thing I look for at a vendor's site is a RMV free guarantee.

Jody, do you mean that RU changed its policy re RMV? This is new and good news if it happens, because in the past it didn't.

Ashdown was very clear on its RMV policy from the very beginning - they get rid of plants with RMV if they notice RMV or a customer reports it; refud money no questions asked, no sale of that plant till they acquire new mother plants, period.

RU, so far was on the opposite side: no refund, no replacement and a refusal to answer questions regarding RMV. Now they stated on their website that they would get all the UC Davis clean budwood but so far those didn't make it for them; even if they did, they would not have mature plants to sell from the new stock.

I am aware that I will be beaten up and called by names because I mention this difference; this is usual since RU has a very devoted customer base. Still the fact is that the two companies were very different in their approach to RMV.

I just did a search and was happy to see that my General Allard is no longer available. Maybe pressure from customers, or maybe the owner had a change of heart. This is a beautiful rose and I wish that it was available virus free. I went round & round with J&P earlier this year regarding Electric Blanket. They knew about the RMV and still made the plant available. I am supposed to receive virus indexed replacements this Spring.
Diana

Hi Guy,
I ventured my garden to day. First time for a while, but it was a good thing cos I ended up actually doing some work. Went around looking for my virused leaves, and found a few. (five in all) Out of the five virused plants, there was one from a Canadian grower. Bear in mind, some of my roses are completely defoliated already. So there could be one or two more. I must have cleaned files as I have no longer my old orders, but am almost certain 99.9% that my Can. virused rose is from Pickering's. Up to now, I have only mail ordered from Hortico or Pickerings. All I could go by were the tags. Hortico state their name after the rose name. Pickerings just seem to say the rose name, then Grown in Canada.

This rose I refer to is Ferdinand Pichard. I had it in my deer ridden garden, but loved it despite it's fate. So re-ordered for my new deer-proof garden. It definitely has virused leaves, pictured here. But it is growing vigorously like my former plant. blooms not many yet, but I think this could be because of the new-ness of the rose. Time will tell. But if it is indeed a stingy guy, then I will know it is because of the virus. I was not comfortable naming the growers, as I genuinly am very happy with them, a couple of things go wrong now and then, but with both the nurseries Hortico and Pickerings, I am generally VERY pleased. Hortico's plants this Spring were incredibly, impressively packed well for shipment, something I have not experience at other times with either of them. They were in some kind of a foil wrapping and very, very healthy.

Anyhow, here are the pictures, and please still bear in mind after the many I have purchased from these growers, as far as I know, this only one, is virused.

Ferdinand Pichard (Oops ulgy picture,huh! I did not intend this first image to be soo big - but it is the end of the season!! Excuses, excuses, excuses!

{{gwi:333197}}


{{gwi:333198}}



Pauline, Vancouver Island.

Pauline, thank you. I must confess, I am relieved that you found only one and that one was Ferdinand Pichard. This rose, I read reports from others, is indeed virused at Pickering.

Did you contact them and told them about it? I think you should and insert the photos in your email.

Firt of all, they should give you credit, and second, thy can hopefully and easily replace it with a clean mother plant or could get clean budwood from Europe.

I agree that they are a great vendor with fantastic selection, so it would be a shame if by continued selling this rose they would tarnish their reputation.

Thanks again for taking the trouble to take the photos and post them.

I have been shovel pruning a lot of my HT's, and replacing with roses I am buying that are vid from a person who gets them from where nastarana mentioned, UC Davis. I bought Kentucky Derby, Papa Meilland, Crown Jewel and Mon Cheri from him so far, and am watching a current one on EBAY called Buccaneer that I want. I notice, even down here, a big difference, so not sure about the warm weather thing. Am going over to Countryside Roses soon since I hear the owner now has some vid roses from the same person I am buying from, so maybe I can get some different ones from them. If I thought I could root some, I'd try myself, but I'd just be throwing money away.

And do check out Appalachian rose nursery - he started with virus indexed plants when very few people cared about this issue.

Here is a link that might be useful: Appalachian rose nursery

I can't buy from the Michigan vendor who is selling on Ebay, nor from Appalachian--no shipping to CA.

I think the lovely and rare Peace sport, Lucky Piece, may not be available non-virused. I saw a planting of it at Bush's Pasture Park rose garden in Salem, OR. All plants showed unsightly virus marks. My LP, from Vintage does have virus markings. As Vintage is the absolutely only source for this rose, I don't intend to request refund or replacement in this case. I am happy that someone is keeping this cultivar alive, even in its' present flawed condition. Peaceport, another rare sport, also planted at Bush's Pasture Park, shows no virus signs at all.

I have also seen virus markings on my grafted plant of The Prince, so anyone wanting to buy it might want to consider the overpriced Heirloom twig option.

I keep thinking it ought be possible to clean plants in one's backyard. In my climate, maintain at a constant temp of over 100F for 6 weeks means plant outside.

nastarena,
You're right about Lucky Piece - even Appalachian's is virused. How do I know? He told me when I called about it. My Peaceport has not shown any signs of virus either, but that does not mean someday it might show up out of no where. By the way, I sent you an email...

I hope that this isn't too much off topic, I was just outside and noticed that my grafted The Mayflower has some strange markings on the leaves. Has anyone had this rose with RMV? Also it may be my lack of patience, but my own root Buff Beauty is so slow to get going, I don't see any markings yet. It is almost two years old and less than two feet tall.
Diana

Ceterum, I don't mean to beat you up, : )
just wanted to comment that I recently emailed RU about 3 specific cultivars and asked about their UC Davis purchases. Apparently its only SOME of the budwood that didn't take. Maybe you meant that they don't yet have any of the new stock ready for sale. That did seem to be the case. But I'm on their list for VID Papa Meilland (that you enabled me into) and VID Jardins de Bagatelle in the spring of 08. My third pick was Chrysler Imperial, which they promptly informed me was from their old stock, as the UCD budwood failed. They did say they've re-ordered.

Since I've never had a disappointing plant from them in the 3 times I purchased from them, I haven't witnessed the problems some report. But I figured if I can't get VID, I can at least check with other folks who have bought a specific cultivar from a specific vendor and see what their experience has been. A small handful of people on this forum responded to my recent thread question about Chrysler Imperial from RU and gave a big thumbs-up. So I went for it. I guess I'll find out within a couple years if I was foolish or not.

By the way, I agree with everyone above about the importance of RMV vigilence. I just don't think anyone can guarantee with complete certainty that their roses are all RMV-free. Even the Appalachan owner said as much, and he's probably made more effort than nearly anyone else.
I seem to recall past threads with various people complaining of infected plants even from Heirloom. It can happen. Ceterum, it sounds to me like, from what you've said about RU's responses in the past, that maybe consumer pressure is needed to get vendors to made a commitment to do what they can. So many operate on such thin margins financially, that it would be a shame to see them run out of business. And RU is one of the bigger success stories. They certainly offer a terrific selection and have tended to provide very well-developed plants. Looks like they're moving in the right direction re. RMV policies, just maybe not quite there yet.

I've also had Mister Lincoln that was RMV. I left it behind when I moved because it was so stingy with blooms. I didn't really like the rose and was sad because I'd always heard such nice things about it.

I do believe Dr. Malcolm Manners sells virus indexed stock to Heirloom as well as some other nurseries. I got an indexed Peace from Heirloom this year, though still small, there is an already huge improvment with it over any other Peace rose I've had that has since died. This one seems very strong and well worth the overpriced twig that arrived when I'd ordered it. The flower also seems quite different from the grafted diseased roses I've gotten at other places. It's fuller, more colorful and just appears stronger.

I'm thinking I want to try the virus indexed Mister Lincoln and see if it blooms better than the virused one I had before.

I'm also thinking of getting some roses from another source and will ask if their stock is from an indexed source. I really like the overpriced twigs of own-root stock. They do a lot better for me as a whole, no matter what nursery they are from.

Here is a link that might be useful: Gardening and Other Stuff

Diana, my experience with Buff Beauty is that it is slow getting started. I bought one years ago (before I knew much about roses) and planted it at the far end of the (small) property. So little happened that I pretty much just gave up on it--in fact, forgot about it. One spring several years later, I stared in surprise at all the gorgeous blooms at the end of my property. I actually had to think for awhile before I remembered what it was that was blooming. Can't tell you now how long that took since I "forgot" I even owned the rose, but it was at least several years. Now whether it has RMV, I don't know, but it is one tough survivor!

Haven't noticed any markings on my Mayflower--not yet, at least. By the way, Mayflower is not a heavy bloomer most of the time, as Austin notes in his catalog descriptions.

Kate

My Walmart Mr Lincoln has light RMV but my Pickering Mr Lincoln does not. Both are very young, it will be a good test to see how they compare!
My Buff Beauty is doing well. I do not believe it is virused.
Pauline - Vancouver Island.

J&P has had Mr. Lincoln that's clean.
I know because I had just dug out my third Mr. Lincoln with serious RMV streaks on the leaves and darned few blooms. And I went to a rose talk and the speaker was showing photos of the six Mr. Lincoln's that J&P sent him (he's well connected in the ARS) that were blooming heavily on canes over eight feet tall. The bushes were to celebrate his birthday or anniversary or something.
I remember doing a slow burn at how unfair it was that so many of us were spending money and time on plants with a built in failure-guarantee when there was better budwood and rootstock out there.

Kate,
Thank you for the info on Buff Beauty, it looks healthy, but just not taking off like my other Hybrid Musks. even the bands of Felicia and Bubble Bath that I received in September are almost as large. I will wait and see about The Mayflower, I know that it isn't a real bloom machine, and I have just left things alone since I don't ever have any disease problems with it.
Diana

Diana,

I have a buff beauty that I have had for 6 years. Mine was not taking off very well. I moved it last fall and this year it has taken off big time. I cant believe it is the same rose. I moved it behind my house and it gets afternoon shade. Now I wonder if it may outgrow it's spot. I also had one that was grafted and it was very large and beautiful. It came down with Rose Rosette Disease and I had to get rid of it.

Did your grafted Mayflower came from David Austin, Texas? They had RMV issues with several plants;, most notorious was Sharifa asma. A friend got three free S.A. replacements and they were all virused. I do not remember the name of the others.

As to Buff beauty being very slow - I read several times thst is the case with own roots BBs. Mine id grafted from Pickering and it threw huge, long cane from year 1. So maybe tis rose is more vigorous if grafted.I read the same complaint re Felicia. On the other hand, my own root Prosperity is so vigorous that I am glad not to have it grafted.

Huge difference in the unvirused. I ordered a VID tropicana and an angel face from Vintage. What a difference, I tried to keep both these grafted several times and they would not thrive. The VID ones are doing spectacular. And the tropicana has the original "coral" color - not faded like the other grafted ones I tried.
The problem is - I have a hard time with anything grafted multiflora, Dr. huey grafts do well for me but many of those are Virused.
So I go own root. Yes, I have gotten own roots virused - (vendor out of business now).

MIke (New Orleans)

And RU is one of the bigger success stories. They certainly offer a terrific selection and have tended to provide very well-developed plants. Looks like they're moving in the right direction re. RMV policies, just maybe not quite there yet.

I agree. 100%.

Countryrosegirl & Ceterum thank you for the responses. Regarding Buff Beauty; it may just take time or maybe I have it in too much shade. I did get The Mayflower from David Austin quite a few years ago when it was first released. Another rose that I had with RMV was cecil brunner grafted, I don't know if that is common for cecil, it had the zig zag marks on the leaves, and the leaves were not separated, three leaves were all together like one leave.
Diana

Let's not forget, however, that there are probably other reasons also why a rose doesn't always thrive. I ordered 2 Molineux from the same respected nursery but in two different years. The first one is smaller, less vigorous (but no RMV markings that I have noticed); the one I got the following year was very vigorous--shot right up and bloomed more in one summer than the other one did in two summers.

Maybe the smaller one will exhibit RMV in later years, but maybe it is the same kind of difference observable between my taller sister and myself--just a natural difference.

On the other hand, I just might try Peace again some day if I find a non-virused one. It was my favorite rose, but I swore off it forever after several miserable failures.

Kate

Julie22,

I've been told the virus free clones are more fragrant. Has this been your experience with the VID PEACE?

Thanks,

Patrick

I have never had a Canadian rose with RMV. I have bought from Pickering, Hortico, Palatine and a local outfit that grows roses on a sub-contractor basis but can sell individual plants to the local-yocals. I won't buy roses from the United States right now for two reasons. One, the root stock is not cold tolerant here and two, I have had virused stock. It's a shame really when it is so hard to find a rose you want to try and you are afraid to import it from your neighbouring country. I suppose it is only a matter of time before RMV is common here as well.

What is RMV and what are the signs?

Aggierose, RMV stands for "Rose Mosaic Virus," one of 2 rose viral diseases I'm aware of; the other is Rose Rosette Disease. RMV is not natural to roses. It somehow got introduced through rootstock grafting or budding, and came, I think, from apple trees or some such thing. Anyway, its been a widespread problem in the U.S. for the past few decades, the latter part of the 20th century, as mass production through infected rootstock sources led to mass infection. I don't think there was much public awareness, though, until just the past several years or decade or so. Basically, RMV weakens the infected plants so that they don't perform as well as they otherwise would, are more susceptible to fungal diseases and more easily succumb to winter freezes, among other things. It's sneaky, though, becuase there is no easy way to identify all infected plants without laboratory testing. and different rose plants respond in quite varied ways to being infected. Some never manage to grow well and quickly die; others are seemingly healthy and productive for a few years, then gradually decline; and there are grades in between. One "clear" sign of the disease is mottled or varigated patterns on the leaves. But it is not always or even often present. There is no cure.

VID or virus indexing is a method discovered to create clean rose plant stems from infected plants by growing the plants in strictly temperature-regulated rooms, hot enough that the virus can't reproduce but not so hot the rose dies. Whatever stems and leaves grow in those temperatures are, in theory, free of the virus, though the virus remains in the rest of the plant. UC Davis started a VID program several years back to help rescue more popular varieties that had been virtually or entirely taken over by RMV infections.
Check out this address for more info, or you can just as easily do a web search on rose mosaic virus. http://www.marinrose.org/virus.html

Susz52,

I could not disagree with you anymore if possible! Hortico is notorious for delivering plants with RMV, and I have had to call them three different times about this. And what do you mean the root stock is not cold hardy? They all sell on the same rootstock as quite a few sellers here, that being multiflora, plus there are quite a few nurseries selling on their own roots here in the U.S. That was quite a unfair generalization in my opinion!

mgleason. I think you misunderstood one of Susz52's comments. As I understand it, one reason she would not buy roses from the USA because the rootstock the roses grafted here are not cold hardy. I strongly suspect she referred to Dr. Huey.

I understood her ceterum, I just disagree! There are plenty of vendors here that sell on multiflora or on their own roots. Now, whether or not they ship to Canada is another question, and maybe the only vendors that do ship there have roses on Dr. Huey, but you can even buy J&P roses now as ownroot.

And if Dr. Huey isn't cold hardy, somebody needs to sit him down and have a good long talk about what he can and cannot be doing because he obviously missed that memo.