Ducher vs. Marie Lambert

15 years ago

I was reading the Tea Rose Book from Australia. The book indicates that the tea rose Marie Lambert is what is sold as Ducher in the USA. If this is so, what does that do to Ducher's status as the only white china rose? Any comments on this? Tea? China? Does it even matter? Just thought I'd see your thoughts.

Robert

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Comments (7)

len511
15 years ago
hmmm, maybe get a u.s. china book and see if it says that the tea rose called marie lambert sold in australia is actually the china rose ducher.lol
seriously, i wonder what the source was for that?
berndoodle
15 years ago
Fascinating, Robert. It certainly makes sense to me. The plant has large and wide foliage for a china.
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morrisnoor
15 years ago
Hi Robert!

Our european 'Ducher' in quite different to my eyes from the rose pictured in the Tea Book. Flowers are full, not semidouble, pure white, with thin, sometimes crinkled petals. The plant grows vigorous and quickly, and it's very very dense. Small leaved, slightly thorny, with very thin, wiry branches. Continuous flowering, blooms sometimes does not open in humid, cooler months.
I'd look for a picture...

Tea/China? many Teas have strong China influence, and vice-versa, in fact many varieties are hybrids between the two Classes. Think at 'Mme Laurette Messimy' or 'Comtesse du Cayla'... Many other varieties listes as Chinas, are evidently of a different parentage. One of the most remarkable in my opinion is the "China" 'Sanguinea' ('Bengal Fire') as we know it in Europe, which shows evidently all her Tea/Gigantea blood and no tracks of China blood (see my comparison table Sanguinea/Mutabilis on HMF)...
Isn't foolish to list roses as 'Le VÃ©suve', 'L'Ouche' (of commerce), 'Park's Yellow' (of commerce), 'Odorata', as Chinas?
Another Tea, but China-like, white & ivory, is the gorgeous, unrivalled 'Rival the Paestum', which I rarely read on comments here.

By the way, I'm quite surprised to read in that book that no one challenged the identification for 'Mrs Reynolds Hole', although it's obvious that the Rose in commerce with this name couldn't be a Tea, and it's much more likely to be the Bourbon 'Reynolds Hole'... not the Mrs... but the Mr!

Ciao,
Maurizio
peplill
15 years ago
Hi Maurizio,
I got the totally opposite impression from the tea book.
The first paragraph states that the rose Mrs. Reynolds Hole does not have a tea like growth habit and that many feel it is a HP, Bourbon or HT. The chapter continues to contrast this rose to the tea rose including it's lack of regular repeat, it's lack of twiggy growth, it's long arching canes and sprawling habit, and recommends it be grown like a HP on a wall or pegged. In the Appendix page 215 it states the identity of the rose is in question.
My overall impression was that this rose is not clearly a tea and is not identified correctly. It is however commonly sold in Australia as a tea rose and that is perhaps why they included it, as accurate information like this is so helpful.
melissa_thefarm
15 years ago
I got 'Mrs. Reynolds Hole' a couple of years ago, and I agree that it's awfully un-Tea-like.
morrisnoor
15 years ago
Hi Peplill,
I've read the description of Mrs Reynolds Hole on the Tea Book. And I've understood exactely, as you've said above, that "THIS rose has a Bourbon-like appearance".

Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems the the book is questioning the classification of this rose, not her name (AND classification), as I would do, and as is done many times in the book for other varieties.
They say "Mrs Reynold Hole is not a Tea"... instead than "this Rose IS NOT the Tea 'Mrs Reynolds Hole'"....

IMHO, the Rose in commerce as 'Mrs Reynolds Hole', is not a Tea, and not the Tea 'Mrs R. Hole', but, maybe, the Bourbon 'Reynolds Hole'.
I ask to myself: how a rose made by crossing two Teas (Archiduc Joseph x AndrÃ© Schwartz), could look like a Bourbon? A Tea Rose from Nabonnand, which is easy to expect to be in the "style" of other Nabonnand varieties.
From early description of 'Mrs Reynolds Hole':
"Blossom very large, full; color: deep purplish pink, interior tinted crimson; very HANDSOME SOLITARY BUD borne ON A LONG STEM; growth very vigorous, wood thorny, bronze-red. Very pretty foliage, very floriferous, fragrant"....

Ciao!
Maurizio
organic_tosca
15 years ago
Maurizio - I LOVE "Rival de Paestum"!! I fell for it years ago from a picture in a book, and fell in love all over again when I saw your photo (at least, I think it was yours) on this forum of Rival in a blue pot. I was going to order it this Fall from Vintage, but I've run out of room (my garden is on a balcony).