I like Papa M. better basically because it seems much more fragrant. I also really like Corpus Christi, and love Taboo and Black Beauty. I posted a picture of Black Beauty a few weeks ago out here, so go back and find it (under ultra rate florist roses) and you'll agree it's gorgeous!

Thanks Michael. I saw your post, actually. Funny you should mention Black Beauty, (I agree, it's stunning!). I was planning to get Papa Meilland from Northland Rosarium, along with another rose. Then I saw that Moore's Roses had Red Masterpiece, which would have allowed me to get Hocus Pocus along with it. That was my original incentive for possibly getting Red Masterpiece INSTEAD OF Papa Meilland. I know Hocus Pocus is known to be highly unstable, and I figured I'd end up with Black Beauty, if not with the clone I purchase, then eventually with branches I could root. (plus, I figured to save a few dollars over Northland's prices.) Does that sound like a crazy plan? I've read a few posts here to the effect that Papa M. is some people's very favorate fragrant red rose. I just wondered if Red Masterpiece is similar enough to be a satisfying substitute. Is it, in your estimation?

Mike

Not even close to me, but your plan borders on genius! I actually asked Lorene for a HP that had reverted back, and got it and Kurishinju at the same time. So get RM, and just put Papa M on the back burner for now. That rose is commonly available, and usually not too expensive.

I grow both Red Masterpiece and Papa Meilland. I got Red Masterpiece about 10 years ago (chain store purchase, Lowe's had it almost every year in those plastic bags. I liked it a lot but then the usual bomb hit - RMV showed up. I didn't have the heart to SP it but replanted it behind the property line.
Red M. was very productive at the beginning and quite fragrant but it has declined quite a bit, probably because of its having RMV.
On the other hand, Papa Meilland purchased several years later got better and better even in terms of disease resistance. I love that rose so much that I ordered a second one from Palatine last fall. It is not that easy to come by a good RMV free Papa Meilland by the way.

I, like Mgleason, love Taboo (Barkarole) a lot. I also admire Black Baccara despite its lack of fragrance. But, I cannot detect any fragrance of Black beauty either.

I do not know if I remember right as to you grow roses in pots. If that is the case, I assume Taboo and papa Meilland are more difficult in pot culture, because PM gets over 5Â while Barkarole grows to 6Â+.

I detect no fragrance on Black Beauty either, but my 10 year old daughter thinks it has a nice fragrance. You know what they say, each nose is different.

As for the coming by a good RMV-free version of Papa M., you're right, and that's why I am ordering some from the FPS program at UC-Davis next spring. That way I'll have a batch of VID Papa M's!

I have grown Papa Meilland in my Sherman Oaks, mediterranean type garden for the last half dozen years. Frankly, I was going to pass on it, because of its reputation as a mildew magnet, but was dissuaded by a desert rosarian who noted that in time its proclivity to mildew diminished as the plant matured. That turned out to be true and the plant produces mildew free big dark red fragrant blooms. There are a couple of other dark red roses that you might be interested in--Night (aka Lady Sackville), a McGredy II 1930 rose that also takes three years or more to mature and produce a vigorous rose and Night Time, a 1975 Weeks rose that is the most stunning dark red rose I have ever seen--the color is a velvety dark red with a high gloss luster to it and a damask fragrance. Unfortunately, it was very disease prone, and I could not keep it alive despite two tries. It seemed to like the area near Tyler, Texas where I first saw it, but had no use for my socal garden climate.

BTW, where did you find Kirushinju? Hortico is always out of it or didn't stock it anymore when I inquired.

TIA

JimD

Red Masterpiece was a really good rose for me, but it was strongly fragrant only on rare occasions. Tall, wide, and free-blooming on long stems.

Have you tried Crimson Glory? I grow both Papa Meilland and Red Masterpiece as well as Chrysler Imperial and Mister Lincoln, and when Crimson Glory is on, it's my favorite for that rich damask fragrance. It's a smaller bloom and prone to mildew, but the fragrance makes up for any difficulties in growing it.

I grow Crimson Glory and it is true that the fragrance is wonderful. Not better to my nose than Papa M. In addition, CG has week neck and it does not last as cut flower well.

JimD,

For Kiroshinju, check out Moore's Roses. Order a lot because I get a kickback every time I push a customer her way LOL!

Here is a link that might be useful: Moores Roses

This is slightly off topic but here goes.
Are we ready for a "red" forum?
Any opinion on that?

Thanks for the additional input. I have considered Crimson Glory for some time, but the questionable staying power and short stems are what have caused me to hesitate. I really am looking for a good, HT smelly rose for cutting. I recently changed jobs (I'm a social worker) and went from 100% computer and phone work in a cubicle to having my own office and seeing clients in it. So I've spruced it up a bit and have a couple decorative large bud vases in it and a small vase for minis on my desk. I want to have fresh cut roses in there as much of the time as possible, so now the cut flower qualities are more important to me than ever. I used to just want nice garden display.

Sounds like I really should favor Papa Meilland, here. That means waiting on Hocus Pocus/Black Beauty. But hey! I already have deep red Deep Secret and the nearly black miniflora Memphis Magic. To me, it looks like a 3/4 size Black Beauty. No scent on that one, either.

If I get Papa Meilland from Northland Rosarium, I have to get a second rose, and I'm considering either Jardins de Bagatelle for its reputation for fragrance, or Memoire, a white Kordes rose I'd never heard of, but which the American Rose Society Encyclopedia says is highly regarded in many countries, and which has impressive photos on Helpmefind.

Or maybe there's another good source for Papa M. that won't require me to buy several roses at once?

Any other thought/musings/input is still welcome. Thanks, all.

Mike

Of all the red Hybrid Teas in the world "Papa Meilland" is by far my favorite. It grows to about 4 ' tall by nearly as wide here, and produces very large, deep crimson roses, that are highly perfumed.
I much prefer "Papa Meilland" to "Mr. Lincoln" because the latter has a tendancy to produce bare lower canes, and can be quite stingy of bloom.
My garden is close to the ocean, where mildew is a big problem for roses, yet "Papa Meilland" thrives with being sprayed with Neem only three times a year.

Luxrosa