Results of epsom experiment and caution on corn meal

12 years ago

Here I post the result of Radio Times soaked 1 day in Epsom salt. Then I replaced the water with calcium citrate, and finally plain water. The color did deepen compared to the control in tap water.

This confirms the experiment I did on William Shakespeare end of August. He was grunting with constipation and produced these tiny pellets of ugly purple. So I watered him with Epsom salts, and he diarrhea-ted into glorious crimson red (just like the pic. in Roses Unlimited). But his lilac-Old Rose scent disappeared.

Not only Radio Times stank up with Epsom salt in the vase, it got really soft and droopy (magnesium relaxes muscle, whereas calcium constricts). I changed its water to calcium citrate, and the petals are still stiff and firm after 4 days in a vase. The control one in plain water already dropped petals (vases are switched, epsom salt is on the right).

Since my soil is alkaline I threw rotten tomatoes and stomp on them to acidify the soil. I dumped left-over Epsom salt water from my experiments on this spot. Today I found tons of tomato plants shot up at the same place. This is from the Orchid forum: "One study posted found adding Epsom salts does not make any difference in the size of flowers produced, but the use of Epsom salts brought seedlings to maturity and flowering faster than those which were not provided with magnesium sulfate".

Magnesium made my Radio Times limpy and droopy in a vase. My guess is that it softens the hard cover of the seed, making it easier for plants to sprout. Below is tomato plants growing where I dumped epsom salt. You can see the whitish left-over stuff, and a piece of limestone rock nearby.

My neighbor was impressed by zero blackspots on my 10 Austins in partial shade. She was asking me questions about my corn meal experiment so I answer them here in case you wonder the same.

1) Why do we bother with corn meal dusting for black spots? Because spraying is more complicated, such as in the thread, "What to wear when you spray?": A tyvek disposable suit, cartridge respirator with face mask, hood, gloves. A four foot long wand ...I wear a long sleeve shirt, a hat, gloves, long pants, and either a bandana over my nose or a respirator. If I spray a miticide I also wear goggles and stick my head through a hole in a trash bag and wear that over my shirt."

The only caution I have for whole-grain corn meal is the birds love that stuff. You have to hold your breath while dusting, otherwise your nostril hairs turn all yellow. It's best to wear something subdued, like your black Ninja costume with a face mask. Try not to wear something gaudy like a bright red shirt, lest the humming birds get excited and mistake your yellowed nostrils for its nectar.

It takes at least 10 days before beneficial Trichoderma fungi to form colonies. Trichoderma attacks and destroys other non-beneficial fungi, such as blackspots. I was throwing corn meal over my shoulder at rose bushes, but I got more sophisticated and used a flour sifter from the kitchen.

You won't have the risk of Eyes Degeneration like chemical spray. However, when you dust with corn meal, keep your eyes on your toes at all times. Better yet, blindfold yourself. Never look up, since the birds dive down for corn meal, and they may gorge your eyes out, and you'll die a gruesome death. (I'm just kidding, to keep the folks employed at Bayer).

My neighbor asked me how I made corn meal stuck to the leaves. The answer: dust right after it rained. If you want to be anal-retentive, you can set your hair-blower to low setting and blow dry each leaf. My only complaint about corn meal is that while I dusted my roses, these morning doves couldn't wait. They sat next to me and drove me nuts with their clucking and heavy-breathing ... Happy Halloween - Hopefully I scared you enough.

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Comments (17)

monarda_gw
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If it attracts rats, then what about, um, shall we say, rodents?
strawchicago z5
Original Author
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I made jokes on corn meal since people underestimate it. However, the birds like that stuff and it makes growing roses so much easier. Since the corn meal worked so well against black spots, I'm delighted to buy more roses next year.

The rodents don't have a chance with the corn meal, since the birds ate all that stuff on the ground. People think that roses are fussy and need spraying - but that's not true. I spend more time sniffing roses and drooling over pics. posted online, than taking care of them. What made me waste time planting invasive perennials in the past was the misconception that roses need spraying. It is no longer true with corn meal's effectiveness against black spots. Now roses become the easiest perennials, after spring bulbs.
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Hi Mike: Glad to hear from you, I'm too lazy to spray. Fifteen years ago, a neighbor saw me spraying roses with chemicals and told me, "why do you even bother growing roses with all these spraying?" Roses become unpopular when people associate roses with spraying. It's already a nuisance to spray my moldy shower stall with bleach/water solution. The pics I posted are FRESHLY dusted roses BEFORE another 20+ hours of rain. Today the rain washed most of the corn meal away, and the leaves are 100% green and healthy. My 10 Austins keep ALL their leaves green. I went and check the neighbors' disease-resitant roses, like Living Easy, and some single-petal species. They look horrible with yellow leaves after 5 days of constant rain, and no sun. It looks better dusting roses with corn meal using a flour sifter, and much faster than messy spray. My pics look bad because I threw corn meal by hand. The best thing about dusting with corn meal is the prevention of pathogenic fungi from germinating through the winter and inflicting more damage in the spring. It takes 10 days for the beneficial Trichoderma fungi to germinate from corn meal, and to suppress pathogenic fungi. I dusted August 1, September 1, September 17 (after 25+ hours of rain), and when I took the above posted pictures (Wed, Sept.28), after 3 days of rain. I finally see the sun this morning, Friday, Sept.30, after 5 days of constant rain.
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The first article is from the web link given below. It states that the oil comes from the "germ" portion of the seed. The second article says that the antifungal compounds of interest come from the "endosperm (including aleurone layer) and embryo tissues". I looked up the meaning of the word "germ" and found that it means embryo; so unless the compounds are refined out, the oil may contain them. -------------------------------------------------- "Technical Abstract: Corn kernels contain about 4% oil, and almost all of this oil is in the "germ" portion of the kernel. Because corn kernels contain about 60-70% starch, a process called "wet milling" was developed to economically obtain this cornstarch. One of several byproducts of wet milling is the corn germ fraction (which contains 40-50% oil). Most corn oil is obtained by crushing and extracting wet milled corn germ, and like "wheat germ oil," corn oil could more accurately be called "corn germ oil." The US produces 57% of the world's supply of corn oil. Corn oil's desirable properties include: its mild nutty flavor, its high levels of unsaturated fatty acids, its low levels of saturated fatty acids, its very low levels of linolenic acid, its high levels of unsaponifiables (including phytosterols and tocopherols), and its stability during frying. Although consumer focus has been shifting towards "high- monounsaturate"-oils (olive, canola, and NuSun sunflower oils), corn oil is still the second most popular vegetable oil in the US (soybean oil is the most popular), and the food industry currently relies on corn oil and corn oil margarine products." ------------------------------------------------- Title: Distribution of antifungal proteins in maize kernel tissues using immunochemistry. Authors: Guo, B. Z.; Cleveland, T. E.; Brown, R. L.; Widstrom, N. W.; Lynch, R. E.; Russin, J. S. Authors affiliation: Insect Biology and Population Management Research Laboratory, Agricultural Research Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Tifton, GA, USA. Published in: Journal of Food Protection, volumn 62, pages 295-200, (1999). Abstract: "A study examd. the distribution of two antifungal proteins, ribosome-inactivating protein (RIP) and zeamatin, in maize kernel tissues. Proteins were extd. from endosperm (including aleurone layer) and embryo tissues of imbibed maize kernels. Western blot analyses revealed that RIP-like protein was present at higher levels in endosperm than in embryo tissues, whereas zeamatin-like protein was more concd. in embryo tissues than in endosperm tissues. However, there were three protein bands in the endosperm and two bands in the embryo that reacted to anti-RIP antibody in Western blot analyses. Tissue prints were conducted to localize the antifungal proteins. Imbibed kernels were cut longitudinally and transversely and blotted onto nitrocellulose membranes. Using antibodies against maize RIP and zeamatin, RIP was found primarily in the aleurone layer of the endosperm and glandular layer of scutellum, whereas zeamatin was located mainly in the kernel embryo. These results provide insight into the potential functions of these antifungal proteins, esp. since the presence of RIP and zeamatin within maize kernels uniquely protects kernels from pathogens." Here is a link that might be useful: link for first article above.
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If you read that message to the end, I was clearly under the belief that Milorganite had zero metals in it. When I say zero, I meant relatively low to the same levels that ordinary cattle manure compost would have "zero" metals. What changed my mind was the Washington State report that we have been talking about here. Prior to reading that report I had been listening to the "incinerated sewage sludge salesmen" about their product. Deerslayer is correct in correcting part of what I said. The list from Washington State only includes the 1,700 or so fertilizers that passed their testing and are allowed to be sold in the state. I learned that in this discussion. If I make that same error in the future, please refer me back to this thread. The Washington report did not cover the 1,300 others that did not pass. Milorganite is apparently superior to nearly half of the products when you consider its ranking among the 4,000. As for the three items on your short list remaining, I have finally found the information you might have provided earlier regarding the heating process of the Milorganite product. On their home page there is a link to how the product is made. I thought at first it was a link to the graphic, but it is a link to a video. In that video they explain that the products is not burned to ash but only heated to the point of killing the pathogens. If I had had that info last week (and here I am believing the salesman again), we could have put this to rest. 1. Milorganite is incinerated. When something goes through an incinerator that material is commonly referred to as having been incinerated. EPA requires an incinerator and Milorganite uses one. Since nobody had any information about the heating process more than the use of an incinerator, I was of the belief that the resulting product was the ash of the microbes, not a dried microbe. In the four years since I wrote that other comment, nobody has come forth with the information you presented regarding the low heat. Although for some reason there does seem to be a faint memory of the heating process, but I can't remember where or when. I write a lot late at night. 2. The process for making Milorganite "is more like the process of firing clay to make china than any other process I (DCHall) can think of.". As far as I knew it was. Now I know, or think I know, differently. As you pointed out it is more like cooking chicken. Actually after looking at the video, it is more like drying clothes. 3. You implied that Milorganite doesn't contain any protein I said that because that was my belief - just as you apparently believed that all the products on the Washington State list were there because they met the EPA exceptional quality standard. We generally write the things we believe. This protein revelation finally explains to me how Milorganite works. What would you think of the effectiveness of a fertilizer that you believed to consist of ash? Regarding the grains, apparently you have missed my explanation of that the previous two times. I have never seen the products. The report named the name on the bag. I tend to believe what I read from the manufacturer unless I have other information. As a matter of fact, grain from one field, or from one stalk, will have different nutritional values than the next one. The differences in the products listed on the report are striking but I'm not going to second guess them at this point. I believe there are other websites where you can view bag advertising versus test results. Since we were really discussing metals I didn't think the pursuit of a grain discussion was really relevant. I did think I remembered seeing several corn gluten meal products in that list, but it must have been a different list. The point was the Washington report covers a very wide range of fertilizer products from the organic (maybe) to the waste materials. There are other reports around that Washington site that discuss the use of metal waste material in fertilizers.
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ogroser
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
What concentrations of epsom salt and calcium citrate did you use - or preferably for easy use - the amounts used per volume of water. The % purity of your starting salts would also be important, if we wanted to use your method. Did you try the Calcium Citrate alone to confirm its effect and if so did it affect the fragrance? Thanks for sharing the information so that we can try it ourselves. Best, Nick
dublinbay z6 (KS)
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I still say it sounds a lot easier to plant disease-resistant roses and then you don't have to worry about spraying or about ruining the looks of your plants by dosing them with corn meal.

Kate
jaxondel
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Oh come on, ogroser, thanks for sharing? THANKS for sharing THAT?

I take the strawberry person's final sentence literally, and have to consider the initial post here to be nothing more than a perverse, somewhat adolescent holiday joke. How else is one to explain grunting constipation, the disgorging of tiny pellets of ugly purple, glorious and (redundantly) crimson red diarrhea, stomped rotten tomatoes, nostril hairs turning yellow, eye-gorging birds making extractions from human noses, gruesome deaths, heavy-breathing morning (sic) doves, anal retention, etc, etc, etc.?

I've no idea what relevance "whitish left-over stuff and limestone rock nearby" may hold, but I'm left to conclude that, in strawberry person's galaxy, the stuff AND the rock must signify an eerie prescience relative to humankind's manifold sins and wickedness, and the wages thereof.

So, strawberry person, your stated hope has been realized: You have indeed scared us enough. Allow me, now, to instruct you (as you instructed us) to blindfold yourself, never look up, and keep your eyes ALWAYS on your toes (assuming you have some of those).

P.S. Be reminded, one and all, that in the penultimate line of the introductory post, strawberry person was frank enough to confess to having been driven nuts by mourning doves (or, perhaps, by doves that appeared in the morning). Whatever . . . driven absolutely NUTS.

Hmmm . . . Is there a conundrum incipient in the wish for a HAPPY Halloween? Just wondering . . .
flaurabunda
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thank heavens I'm not alone today. I feel validated.

All I can say is thank you, jax, for finally saying something.

C'mon....nobody wants to say anything about this corn meal? I mean seriously, it's been weeks since we've had any blackspot pressure in Illinois, so I could throw lard at my shrubs and claim that it works.

I can understand not wanting to get attacked here for disagreeing, but seriously....next thing we know, someone will be telling us that San Francisco is a horrible place to grow roses.

Oh, wait........
mike_rivers
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Jaxondel and Flaurabunda, I'd far rather hear your facts to dispute Strawberryhill's claims, than read your attacks on her sense of humor.
flaurabunda
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I don't care about her sense of humor. That's a matter of taste.

What exactly is her claim? That corn meal protects plants from black spots during weather where there's no blackspot pressure? What is that, anyway....blackspot? Cercorspora? Do we even know? She said she never had it anyway because horse manure's potassium prevents it.

That the average temperature in Chicago is -30?
Someone else already posted the correction to that statement in another thread.

That plants are constipated? Well, I you got me on that one. I don't regularly check for healthy rose stools in my garden. ZING!!

That magnesium softens hard seed covers which is why her Radio Times went droopy in a vase? I can't even begin on that one.....

Eyes Degeneration?

Planting roses in the shade?

You're right Mike. That's all it is......funny.
jaxondel
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Hello Mike Rivers -- Well, personally, I'd far rather hear whatever facts you have at hand to validate/sustantiate/corroborate Strawberry's claims (did Strawberry make any claims?).

When you come back here to do that, might it be possible for you to do so without resorting (as Strawberry did) to such heavy reliance on the scatological? Please . . .

So you use cornmeal on your roses, Mike Rivers? I thought that was a canard that had been put to rest. Guess not. I (and probably Flaurabunda) await your elaboration on its benefit in the rose garden. BTW: White or yellow?
rosefolly
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I have very little faith that cornmeal does anything to protect roses from blackspot, though I'm basing this on personal opinion, not scientific research. I suspect Miracid to have more chance of actually working than a dusting of cornmeal. (Anyone else been here long enough to remember that thread back in the 90's?)

But come on, folks, the post was clever and amusing. It made me smile. Lighten up a bit, please! We're all friends here.

Rosefolly
User
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I remember reading that using Miracid as a foliar feed/spray can be effective against black spot. I would imagine you'd have to do it regularly like any spray program?

If you have any plants that tend to get chlorosis, it would certainly make them happy.
olga_6b
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I remember Miracide craze :) I even tried it myselt at that time.
Olga
michaelg
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Yeah, people were talking about Miracid on the Roses Forum sometime in the later 90s. Then some ag experiment station did a trial of Miracid and found that it had no effect on blackspot whatsoever. Probably the original finding resulted from extreme heat in the St. Louis summer suppressing black spot coincidentally with the guy spraying Miracid. That's why we shouldn't draw firm conclusions from a few observations without a proper control group.
rosefolly
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
My point exactly.

Back in the mid-90's when that post appeared here, I tried Miracid on the only rose in my garden that had BS. It promptly defoliated and grew back with all healthy leaves, proving nothing at all.

There's no proof on this one either, just something someone is trying out and reporting to us. But that is no reason to jump all over the poster and make fun of his/her humor. Who among us has not had the curiosity to try things out?

Sheesh, folks! Take a deep breath and relax. We do this for fun.

Rosefolly
mike_rivers
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I guess I could have made my point more politely.

Anyhow, I remember the original Miracid post and as I recall, it eventually was revealed that the author had been spraying a commercial fungicide for blackspot, with less than satisfactory results. He then sprayed the same roses with Miracid and observed much better control. He initially reported only the Miracid spray and he attributed his success entirely to it. As I recall, there has been at least one report that urea - the major component of Miracid- has a synergistic effect with some plant pesticides, perhaps by enhancing the uptake of the pesticide by the plant.
rosefolly
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Mike, thanks for clarifying that point. I always wondered if there was something going on. So many people reported good results, and so many others became so angry about it.

As I recall, it just about tore the Roses Forum apart. People were so heated! I must apologize if in my turn I was not as tactful as I should have been.

I value this forum and its members highly, even If I don't agree always agree with everything posted. I have learned so much over the years from the discussions here.

Rosefolly
Embothrium
12 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
For discussion and analysis of corn gluten meal and epsom salts as gardening aids...

Here is a link that might be useful: Linda Chalker-Scott

Results of epsom experiment and caution on corn meal

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monarda_gw

strawchicago z5
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Results of epsom experiment and caution on corn meal

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strawchicago z5Original Author

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strawchicago z5
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