I wonder if there are already groups who are doing a part of what you propose.... that might be a place to start.

Also in occures to me that asking someone at Starbucks corporate how they happened to start their used grounds give away program. Might be a path to follow with other companies, based on how it came to pass at Starbucks.

Also composting of green waste is already happening where I live. Green waste has separate containers and pick up truck. Free compost & mulch is available and is used by the city in parks and elsewhere.

Likewise we have two trash containers ... one is recyclables, the other is trash for the landfill.

Perhaps the grocery stores reluctance to give green waste to local composters has a basis in fear of lawsuits or even in state or local laws. Of course, they could also just be ignorant of the value of the materials they send to the dump. But in the years before cardboard boxes were recycled that material all went to the dump. Now it's nearly impossible to find boxes when moving becaue they have been broken down and baled.

It seems plausible that if businesses could be taught that materials presently sent to the dump have a value .. to them ... that they would change their ways.

But that may call for legislative muscle. Or the kind of corporate PR sophistication shown by Starbucks.

There are many things that can happen at the grassroots level, but not without some kind of organizational back up.

I'm in my 70s and have hung up my "gadfly" hat. But I wish you well. Hope you are able to combine your efforts with others. Small victories are very sweet.

Unfortunately, the extremely limited bit of recycling that does take place is a tiny fraction of the vast numbers associated with what still goes to build the mountin sized landfills throughout our nation. Too, I have seen videos of those very recycling trucks dumping everything together at the waste sites.
You are absolutely right about the role of regulations at all levels...and I won't even touch the role of the major waste haulers and unions. When working with a friend who does 3 to 400 acres windrow composting to safely and effectively convert organics into compost, I attended one hearing out west and was surprised to see a rep from one of the largest environmental organizations virtually sitting in the laps of the waste hauling corp's rep. They receive millions from them. Talk about hypocrisy, greed, and corruption at ALL levels! There is NO justification for landfills and they are a contributor to pollution of land, water and air throughout our country. But, the government agencies get paid for tipping fees and the haulers for taking the materials there. Whole foods at least collects all of their own waste stream and makes it into the best compost I have ever seen....which they sell for over 9.00 a bag. Maybe I need to include the congressmen and representatives at the state and federal levels along with those corporate heads. Funny, in reading about a pending food concern next year here that in Asia and Africa such composting has huge contributed to land reclamation, soil enhancement, and providing food. While people argue over global warming, this is an area that is very real a a nationwide pollution source and a blight upon the landscape while those millions of tons of organic waste COULD actually be used to great results to enhance soil life and quality while locally helping farmers and small gardeners alike.
I am 60 and though I have never been any kind of activist or "tree hugger: especially after seeing where such groups often get their funding and political clout, as a small gadener who drives by these mountains with the eternal flames ever burning, its like a monument to the very same corruption and greed that is seemingly all pervasive in our nation. Even though an old codger I CAN write letters and, as a people, we COULD, end this.

Mensplace -

I applaud your efforts but I think it will take more than a few letters to get done what you want to do. I think you'll need a plan. Below are some links which may or may not help you get started.

Grocery store to farm: recycling food waste into compost

Grocery chain adds green waste bins to its recycling effort

Composting and the Grocery Industry

On the second link, you may have to hit a "Skip Ad" button. The last one is a PDF file that has a contact number at the bottom if you want to get something started in your area. Good luck.

Val

As one who has set up a small seasonal composting operation I've seen a few problems.

Regulations: Huge rules and regulations on setting up composting facilities. Unscrupulous operators would quickly pop up without these rules so they are needed. But there can be different rules for smaller operators and some governments are working on this.

Regulations: I include this twice because there are rules and regulations on the selling of compost and the quality of compost. Once again, without rules, unscrupulous operators would throw in a few tons of sand with their 'post if they're selling it by weight.

Legal: Businesses (especially in the States) are loath to expose themselves to any kind of lawsuit and giving waste to average Joe or Jane is a huge exposure. Now if you set up a small business and charge the store for your services they seem to be more receptive to the concept.

NIMBY: Not many people want a facility near them, ask your 300-400 acre friend how he did it. That is a huge facility for windrowing. Truck traffic, smell, aesthetics etc.

Cost: Sure composting may be cheaper than landfilling but the waste handling for landfill is already set up. To divert organics, another system has to be set up and run parallel to the waste stream. $9.00 for a bag of compost? and people buy it?

Competition: Municipalities have employees and machinery available to handle waste and they get their funding from taxpayers. To compete with that, a compost facility would have to bring in enough funds to buy all the machinery and pay the salaries solely from tippage fees and sale of product. It isn't as easy as it sounds. Note, in Val's first link it was a municipal employee who set up that program. Taxpayers pay his salary.

People are stupid: Getting the average Joe or Jane to comply with anything is very difficult. They often proclaim they are pro-environmental but in reality they are not. They want everyone else to be pro-environmental but they don't want the inconvenience of doing it themselves.

Committees: Trying to get anything done by committee doubles or triples the time factor to implementation.

I found it was easier to work one on one with a town administrator with a small plan, implemented in stages. Once the concept was proven, refinements and tweeks were required but there are still small problems that will never completely disappear.

I am considering going to one local store to try to set up a waste diversion program with them. I know the owner very well so I think it can be done but I have to make sure I am set up to do it properly.

Lloyd

Mensplace - you might be interested in the Landfill Tax which we have in the UK. Just Google Landfill Tax and you will see that since 1996 it has cost waste producers to dump stuff. This has meant that businesses and local councils have been encouraged to reduce what goes to landfill and encourages recycling. Our local council now takes glass, plastics, textiles, paper, paint, oil, books, shoes, electronics, cardboard and garden rubbish via doorstep collection. The only thing they have not yet cracked is food waste. But it is only a matter of time. Several cities already do it. Looking at the problem from the other end we also now have WRAP which aims to reduce the amount of waste which is created in the first place by tackling things like excess packaging and food waste from shops. So there are lots of ideas out there if you want to research. But it still amazes me that some people can't be bothered to recycle even when it's collected free from their front door.

Here is a link that might be useful: WRAP

mensplace,

Seems as though you and I are on the same 'page' with regard to how we feel about "the eternal flame", but going about this objective a bit differently.

However, I will be happy to support your process, however you see fit to go about it.

For my part as an individual, interested in the same direction to reduce further landfill construction, I am taking my sole proprietorship (Organics Recycling Group) to an LLC status in January, and going after federal and state grant funds to accomplish the task of diverting organic waste from landfills on county-owned property.

Yes, still taxpayers money, and in that regard, along with corporate contributions, hope to compete with and "fit" within the existing waste management methodology - and thereby change it 'from the inside'.

As stated in other posts, I will be 'setting up shop' as a commercial microbiology laboratory, since the way I see this "coming together", an official testing facility is needed along with physical and legal 'gyrations and mascinations' to establish that certain composting criteria are being met - regarding the quality of product being produced. For my part, I intend to mechanize the entire process. Composting machines are manufactured, to handle 500 tons monthly and operate in part with volunteer labor. On the other hand, ORG is working to develop a national network of 'backyard' composters at the same time, because in my opinion, handling food and yard/garden wastes at home is one of the primary methods of reducing the need for more landfills.

Anyway, please send me a private email either through GW or my website (http://www.thesoilguy.com), since we don't need to bore our fellow GW forumgoers with details - but will certainly be nice for them to 'follow-along' with posts we make to 'stay in touch' with progress we make...

I had some trouble with the link below - but the Google cache copy worked. I have the Grant Application in Word, if you'd like to see that via email.

SoilGuy

Here is a link that might be useful: WCTCOG - re:Tx. Solid Waste Grant Funding

Hey Mensplace ... I found this link in another thread [about using Christmas trees as mulch] and thought you might find it useful. As you can see, one man made a difference in one community. I think that is small potatoes compared to what you hope to achieve. But "all politics are local" has a great deal of truth.

////////////////
http://tomclothier.hort.net/page24.html .... [snip] .... ""One caveat: the first time I approached the public works department for wood chips, they answered that they were grinding up tree prunings, some of which were diseased, and I certainly would not want that. The next time, the excuse was that their shredder passed the slim branches through without cutting them, and the material would be useless as mulch because I could not fork it, being such a tangled mess. The next time, the truth came out; they didn't want to drive a dump truck onto private property because of the liability in the case of damage or injury. Finally, out of desperation, I wrote a letter to the mayor. I pointed out that they were spending a lot of my money taking this material to the landfill. Needless to say, the letter worked wonders. And, the Director of Public Works turns out to be a really nice guy. So, if you get those kinds of answers, you know what to do. It helps if you can mention that you have your own shredder, and that you will be combining this material with all of the land waste generated on your property, further saving the land fill from an early retirement. ""

I received the following from Ingles Groceries:
"Thank you for contacting us about product donations. Due to our increased concern on food safety and regulations by the Food Regulatory Commission we have ceased donations of this kind. There is no way to police items released from our stores and we want to be sure that no one gets sick from a product that is out of date. Even with a release there is still no way to police use of the product."
With all of the eColi scares, at least they do have a sound legal concern. Trouble is, things are just TOO litigious in our country. Ultimately, as consumers and citizens WE always pay the extra costs, both financially and environmentally. I am not at all an activist or a politician, but do see a day when we will all wish we had taken more active roles in saving our soils, protecting against runoff, and assuring our own ability to enhance our soils to produce our own foods. We have always taken food and soil fertility for granted, but that easy ride is effectively over. Many may well wish they had "Victory Gardens" soon. I know of very few who can walk out into their backyards today, begin cultivation, and expect overnight productivity. IF all people had ready access to good compost at a reasonable price..or free.. then soil life, the topsoil, fertility, and hunger could far more easily be addressed...without runoff to our water tables, lakes and rivers, constant methane generation, public land being converted to eyesores, and ever higher taxes to run the landfills. Even tipping fees, like ALL corporate costs get passed back to the consumer. Has the price of your food been going down?

Mensplance -- re the letter from the grocer re: liability fears. Yep, a lot of that going around.... "let's sue the socks off of that big corporatation for spilling hot coffee on our laps" [as an example] or other irresponsible use of a product. Sounds like the line of action proposed by Soil Guy is the best way around that. If one corporation can pass its left-overs on to another corporate entity, they feel less vulnerable to the ubiquitous lawsuit.

The point you make about the importance of building healthful backyard soils is not overstated. Even if the gardener is just growing flowers, when push comes to shove [if it does] that healthful soil can be a valuable asset to a family/community.

From what I have seen, compost in Georgia is essentially a meaningless, unqualified, uncontrolled product that in most cases is mostly sand, pine bark mulch or shredded wood...sometimes mixed with municipal sewage waste, peanut shells or just whatever comes down the pike. Ironically, the finest I have seen here comes from the food waste of Whole Foods Markets and is made by one firm that sells it for over 9.00 a bag..And the GA professors and environmental folks say there is no market! BS!

http://www.gaepd.org/Files_PDF/fwd/060209_MeetingSummary.pdf

Trouble is, I think, most have never even seen real, good compost much less a well run, heavily automated sorting sytem combined with windrow composting....so they will continue to meet in committees and discuss and discuss and discuss. IF there was any real interest and fewer power groups in the mix, there would be NO landfills and everyone could have incredibly rich compost and healthy foods.

I will make my own and KNOW what is in it in the absence of a reasonable definition of and control over what is allowed in compost...I have seen too many gardens turned yellow thanks to Georgia "compost". Is there out there a set of clearly defined compost standards and procedures that the states could use as a framework. In the absence of that, can we flood those producers of green waste with letters expalining the need and logic? OR...should I say WILL YOU help spread the word?

I would love to have a large scale site, but NOT in the current climate here where anything can be bagged and called compost. I have a forty foot long windrow of carefully chosen ingredients, but could surely use more greens!

A local grocery chain in Richmond area started composting their green waste a few years ago. They made a deal with the local leaf collection people and a local nursery. Everything was delivered to a site where it was mixed and allowed to compost. Then it was bagged and sold in the stores. It was very well received by the local community. Unfortunately, the local chain has been bought by a mega chain and I don't know if the practice will continue or not. I certainly hope so and plan to contact the new owners (and the previous owners) to encourage them to keep up the good work. Much better than it all going to the landfill sites.

Sandy

I commend an effort to end landfills or at least minimize what gets put into them.... however I think your cause is diminished when you spread misinformation along with your cause.

You have very old and very wrong information about landfills in your post. In a modern landfill, runoff does not go straight into the water table.

Tipping fees do generate income, but they rarely generate MORE than is needed to cover the costs of operating the landfill, closing the landfill, and the perpetual bonds that accompany them.

In many states, it is illegal to put landscape waste in a landfill. (If that is not the case where you live, perhaps you should work on that first... it takes baby steps...)

The next steps will be to make organic/compostable wastes to be illegal to put in a landfill, that is a cause that I would support.

Even though I compost and recycle, I still do have an occasional garbage can that needs to get picked up by the city. I cannot support eliminating landfills, until I have NO garbage cans.

"however I think your cause is diminished when you spread misinformation along with your cause."
A rather strong allegation, especially in light of my own vists and studies. SO, you are telling me that today all landfills have been so constructed and retrofitted that there is no seepage? The barrels full of other components never rust or the seals leak, The liners never are breached? The rains never overflow? The methane burners no longer necessary? The plastics now all decompose? No landscape wastes? Sorry, but the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. Curious how many landfills are right next to major rivers, and even when not, the water table not too far beneath and THAT goes to streams and rivers..never mind the many wells that draw their water from the water table.

Now this exchange between menspace and joepyeweed is what I love about this particular forum. We are all adult enough to handle the reparte between different (intelligent) points of view, without getting our feelings hurt. Both sides see things in a different light. And that's OK, because just perhaps such reparte brings us together more.

I said my 'piece' by private email to menspace, and I'm comfortable with that. I'm behind menspace 100%, but included some cautions based on my personal experience in "tackling" the political and scientific "powers that be".

A worthy cause, and justifiable in context of many perspectives.

One last point... agree, tipping fees don't pay much for landfill expense - our bloody TAXES do, that keep increasing every bloody year, because there's more material going to landfills - that should be kept OUT of those landfills. Kick ass, menspace...

Soilguy

MP, can you just clarify what it is you're trying to do?

On one hand you are talking about grocery stores diverting organic wastes and setting up composting operations. For some reason I thought that was the jist of your post.

Or is it to end all landfilling of all wastes completely?

These are two seperate issues to me and perhaps I've misunderstood the thrust of your endeavour.

In my area, regulations now state that any new landfill must be sealed from allowing seapage into the water table. There are liners in place and water is shed off the top as much as possible to prevent percolation. But there are still pump out valves installed so that any leachate that does accumulate can be pumped out and treated. Now there are older landfills that were built before the newest standards but they are slowly being capped and replaced.

Lloyd

I thought MP was just ticked off because the grocery store wouldn't give him their out of date "greens".

Val

As is true with most of the sheer insanity taking place around the world today, the burden of wrong decisions will fall upon the young. I am not an activist or politician, but occasionally we should question wrong courses. This is ever more so in a time when world soils are being destroyed, water and air are increasingly being polluted, costs rise daily, the WHO implements Codex Alimentarius next week, and many world food supplies are in danger of shortages. The wise are already growing their own using sound gardening approaches. However, there is no disparity between the current practice of burying organics and the need to stop taking waste to landfills as it is all part of the same problem. There is very little in landfills that should not be recycled. The amount of food and other green waste that we bury is astounding. Almost all organic waste could and should be composted...safely and correctly. Too, that which is sold as compost should be compost. Were farmers and homeowners provided with good compost, the soils and foods would both benefit. However, for the skeptics and cynics, I for medical reasons, only have a few more years anyway, so it is, once again, the young who stand to lose or gain. The decision is yours, but there WILL come a day of accountability for such decisions. Our age of being a disposable society, ever throwing away more and more resources while simultaneously poisoning our planet cannot continue.

May I suggest another way to change things? Public opinion and public apathy must be taken into consideration when hoping for change. Most newspapers and some magazines will accept a well-written commentary essay of 750 to 1000 words. Most weekly newspapers are even more accepting of these kinds of essays. And of course the letters to the editor page of most newspapers are an excellent public forum.... as long as the writer stays on point ....covers just one or two parts of the problem, the whole scope is too much to grasp for most casual readers..... doesn't go overboard with playing the blame game ..... and shows examples of places where the point being made is practiced with success. In short, more upbeat that scare-tactic.

It's the old "How do you eat an elephant?" poser [one tablespoonful at a time ... chew well, and don't forget to floss]

Okay so it is basically a rant. Nothing wrong with a rant, I've done 'em myself from time to time.

I agree with much of what you say (not so much with the "wise are already growing their own", I don't garden but I've traded compost and land area for garden produce which I think is pretty wise).

I also suspect most of the people here agree with the lunacy of the stores throwing the organics into the landfill.

We also sorta scoff at homeowners throwing their clippings and leaves into the landfill as well, but for some of us, it is a heck of an opportunity to get OPBL so we live with it.

Lloyd

Usually when the govt wants us to do something they hit your pocketbook smokes for example

When It cost 100 to dump that trash can people will start to listen or will they just toss it all in the river?

I have never seen a modern landfill constructed with barrels of toxic waste
They all have liners and monitering wells if up to current standards
I grew up next door to a dump and our well tested fine until the world blows up there will be industrial waste and absoutly NOBODY can say they are not part of that

Landfilling food and yard waste in just plain stupid and is def the first thing to work on

Some grocery store waste in my area goes into differnt dumpsters for hog feed

Our new landfill had a real nice sorting and in vessel composting system completly removing all paper and organic matter from the waste stream but due to poor management it burned down

Now we have an open methane flame which was approved to power an entire town of 2000 people until some "enviromentalists" sued the county to stop construction of the power turbine

Jonas, It has been documented in many cases that the toxic waste barrels go into the bottom during the early phases of construction and videotaped...just as it has been videotaped that often those "recycling" trucks simply take the materials to the dump. But, it makes folks feel all warm and fuzzy. As someone quoted several posts ago the threats and midnight calls can get VERY real when you shake the tree of waste management and transport. A LOT of money changing hands!

Composting and recycling needs to start on a personal level.We compost and recycle and try to keep our electric use to a minimum. What is maddening to me is I live in a small town in southeast missouri. Here people think it is their God Given right to Burn trash and dump items along the road side. How do you comminicate your ideas to these type of people. I know my neighbors think We are Tree hugging wackos and I want to correct this situation. If anyone has any ideas please respond.

Good points, greenguy :-) Unless you can get humans to stop generating garbage, you will never be able to do away with landfills completely. Not everything we throw out as waste is recyclable or compostable. And I'd venture to say commercial waste/garbage is a far bigger contributor to the problem than residential garbage production.

And I'd avoid making generalizations about dumping of toxic wastes in landfills. I don't doubt that it HAS happened but I'd venture that it is an extremely limited occurrence. The EPA fines for illegal dumping of toxic wastes are enormous and can carry stiff prison terms as well.

Rather than a blanket letter writing campaign, we would all be better served if we individually did our part in changing local practices. Focus on local municipalities and encourage recycling practices and organic waste recycling/composting. Make it a community outreach project.

I am fortunate to live in an area that places a huge emphasis on recycling of all kinds. Local waste/transfer stations separate all recyclable products - old appliances, TV's and electronics, light bulbs, metal parts, car batteries and motor oil as well as the more common paper, plastic, tin and aluminum, and yard waste. In fact, ALL areas have curbside recycling for the common stuff and if it is not sorted and placed in the proper recycling pick-up container, you can be fined.

Just last year, the yard waste recycling was expanded to include ALL domestic organic waste, including kitchen scraps and compostable food containers (like take-out and pizza boxes). This also includes all the organic waste generated by groceries and restaurants - they have the same recycling requirements. These get taken to a huge, state-of-the-art, commercial composting center and get converted to a highly desirable, certified compost product. Of course those who compost at home can still do so, but the alternative is out there for those who do not.

I am fortunate to live in an area that places a huge emphasis on recycling of all kinds.

I wish I was!

I think as a whole we are getting better. I'm hoping that what you described becomes the norm for more areas. I've seen great improvement in my lifetime and I'm sure it can only get better.

Val

I too live where recycle/garbage is much in use, Point do not dump outside these laws the fine/prison time is not worth it. Could it be better,I am sure it could. Today we are digging out from a winter wonderland. I am lucky I can even see my compost pile and you know what. If I go out and put garbage on the pile I will still have a pile of garbage next May. My collection bin is 30 feet away and plowed out like my drive way. As we like to say a no brain er! And yes I am very active on a personal level. I believe if people see me trying to make a difference they will take note. NO I don't hug trees. NO don't call me Green. YES call me a concerned citizen.Good Grief I was going to write a line on this and it turned into a rant. Now for that cup of coffee.

Curt :-)

Though much is left to be done before we can rest easy as good stewards of our earth, much progress has been made. I'm 73 years old and in that time have seen people become more aware that their responsibility for their trash extends beyond dropping it into the trash can. I grew up in a small town and people were not so apt to throw trash when they knew that their neighbors would look down on them for trashing our common community. But as CA's population tripled, I now live in a city, many of whose residents are at varying levels of understanding of community spirit, pride and stewardship. But as others in this thread had said, probably foremost among the things that we can do is to set an example through our actions.

If I actually sit down and write an essay along the lines of this thread, and if it gets published, I will send you the link. I used to write a lot. Not so much these days.