Humus sounds great! Where can I sign up?

"What is humus anyway? Nobody really knows to be honest."

It's a smooth thick mixture of mashed chickpeas, tahini, oil, lemon juice, and garlic, used especially as a dip for pita.

Oh! I though you said Hummus!

I spent 2 years reading every study undertaken by the USDA on the value of humus, about 2500 abstracts.
Interesting most said that increasing humus helped growing almost everything, but didn't say how they defined humus. Most just said that increased humus helped.
The one notable exception was Dr Wright's work on "glomales", where she measured humus with an electron microscope and found that fungus increased humus measurably and said that this fungi was the main source of soil humus. She found dirt rich in fungi had as much as 20-25 % humus when dirt lower in fungi may have 5%. Now soil with 5% humus will grow many plants well. If my numbers are off let us know it was maybe 5 or more years ago that I undertook this project.

Of interest, a few absolutes but in this case not mine, so you "ain'tened gotta holler at me".

Most importantly, the USDA research demonstrated glomalin's tendency to buildup in the soil. Intensively farmed fields consistently leveled off at 0.7 mg of glomalin per gram of soil, while undisturbed plots saw an increase from 1.3 to 1.7 within three years. In hindsight, the Dust Bowl of the 1930's wasn't a casualty of overfarming, but overplowing.

Conservation tillage maintains the supporting cast needed for soil stability, sparing mycorrhizae the stress of reestablishment every season. Aiming for at least 30% cover on the field, precision equipment gently seeds through crop residues, safeguarding soil against the elements and defending against drought.

Even before Wright's discovery, the National Soil and Water Conservation Society endorsed modern agriculture as the most sustainable in all history. According to the National Crop Residue Management Survey, 37% of corn and 57% of U.S. soybeans are now grown under some form of conservation tillage. Using herbicides and biotechnology, farmers can spray their fields with confidence, sparing produce, blighting weeds, and salvaging soil. Many more are following suit.

There are conditions, however. Members of the cabbage and spinach families are oblivious to the fungi's courtship. Growing these crops is essentially a fallow period because glomalin production stops altogether. Frequent rotation with more friendly crops is recommended.

Organic farming has two strikes against it in maintaining soil health. To satisfy nitrogen needs, crops require substantial amounts of manure. Yet manure supplies a glut of phosphorous, which shuts down glomalin production. Another complication is the near limitless supply of weed seeds bankrolled in the soil. Plowing digs up and activates seeds, causing self-induced weed outbreaks. Without herbicides, the fallback has to be the plow.

Oh! I though you said Hummus!

Damn Donn...I swear I quit! hummus, humus, Ingrams, Inghrams... Now I need a gin and tonic...

Blutranes

"Humus in the soil has more real value than money, real estate, stocks or bonds. Its value doesn't fluctuate; it doesn't become scarce in a recession; its worth can't be depleted by inflation and it can't be stolen. It is the direct or indirect source of sustenance for all life on earth. It can sometimes be lost by environmental changes but more often, its demise is from either the apathy or the inadvertent errors of the steward who tends it."

This was taken from a link given on another thread started on this forum about humus. The last sentence is what should give organic growers today a sense of pride, for we are not apathetic and we are advertently putting humus back into the soil, regardless the amount, we are putting humus back in the bank.

How is humus made? I knew that was coming. There are basically two environments where humus is made, in soil or in water. Conditions; there are always conditions, and it always depends, and never any absolutes.

There are 5 conditions/elements that are needed in order to create humus:
1. Organic material
2. Moisture
3. Anaerobic environment
4. Pressure
5. Time

But I thought anaerobic was bad for the soil, how is that good? This is where having an open mind comes into play. Anaerobic is not bad, it just SMELLS bad. People have been making anaerobic compost, compost tea, and all other kinds of teas under anaerobic conditions and plants have not complained unless too much of the anaerobic substance was applied or applied wrong. As long as the anaerobic tea is diluted properly and applied correctly you will get all the benefits using an anaerobic tea, save the stinky smell. Plus, you may get some added benefits as well. As soon as air is introduced into the anaerobic tea or compost it is no longer anaerobic. Like I said, it all depends on conditions.

In water humus created is of a much greater strength due to the different conditions in water and the different types of organic matter. Like I said, it all depends on conditions. The web page has a good explanation, but not the only explanation. Even in an anaerobic environment there is still some air, remember there are no absolutes. Can you begin to see how a big fat juicy argument can start just talking about this stuff? This is why reading as much as you can absorb is important, the more information one has, the more one has to work with. Having someone to talk about this stuff helps as well, two minds are always better than one, sometimes. Nonetheless, in general, with the 5 listed conditions/elements humus can form. If you look at the 5 items, they are the same 5 items you need in order to make a diamond. How big of a diamond? Now that all depends on the conditions.

Can I go on the Internet or a store and buy some humus; this is too much information? Now you are beginning to understand how science feels when a room full of real smart people starts dealing with humus. You know there is going to be some trouble when a person starts a sentence with either the word "if, when, do, as, where, just, can, how, with, since, why, taking, lets, under, or not"; words become bullets. Lets look at your question as an example. You go buy a bag of some stuff labeled humus from Wal-Mart for their low low price. How are you going to get the humus under your soil without disturbing the soil? If you open the bag air is going to start destroying your so-called humus faster; not to mention there is air already in the bag. When you do get it in the ground, where is the pressure going to come from to maintain your bargain priced humus? Under these conditions can you see where you just wasted $1.07 plus sales tax (not to mention the gas)? You can still use the material, but it will be under different conditions than what you purchased it for.

You can buy humus mined somewhere around the country, but it comes with a "buyer beware" warning. You know you can go to a website and just look at the information you want and come back later. For instance:

"Naturally occurring humic substances from low grade lignites and leonardites (natures soil conditioners), are superior fertilizer ingredients. The best source of humic substances for fertilizer use is from leonardites. Leonardite is defined as a highly oxidized low grade lignite that contains a relatively high concentration of the smaller molecular units (fulvic acids). The smaller humic acids (HA) and fulvic acid (FA) molecules have higher fertilizer value and are readily taken into the plant along with trace minerals. The quality and value of any one mined humate or humic acid product depends on many different factors. A good humic material can be destroyed by improper mining or processing. Thus not all commercially marketed humic substances are equal in quality. It is very difficult for individuals purchasing a humate based fertilizer to tell the difference between a high quality humic substance and a low quality humic material, without laboratory tests. The real test of any humic product is in the field. Growers interested in improving soil fertility and plant health need to set up field tests, with an open mind."

I guess it depends on how lucky you are feeling when you buy your humus. Nothing is better than naturally occurring humus, well as natural as we can make it. We have a great start; we already have organic material that has been composted. The compost is in the ground. The buildup of organic matter is providing some pressure. There is less air the deeper in the ground the compost is moved. The compost has been in the soil for some time. Our real problem is the "watch" we have gotten into the habit of checking all day long. Mother Nature does not wear a watch, has nowhere to go, no day of the week to remember, and not a care in the world. There are always options for man/woman; we just have to use our imagination.

The main thing is to not let the details overwhelm you. We are doing this to have fun, save some money, help rebuild our little part of the earth, and be proud of what we are doing. We are ahead of the game because we are not starting from scratch. We have little or no chemicals in our soil, we use no toxic pesticides or herbicides, and our soil has a good supply of organic material already in it. Our soil is not compacted; our soil is full of life. There is going to be some humus in the compost we make, if we change how we make our compost we can change the amount of humus in the compost. To me that is a very good situation to be in; now if I can just get this "Ingram-vs-Ingham thing right

Blutranes

Blu, I only address one point about buying humus from a "big box", it will have little if any humus. It will have organic matter for sure and will feed the soil similar to home made compost. Note carefully that I say "similar".
Labels such as "Organic Humus" on bags at "big boxes" are poorly regulated if they are regulated at all.

Maggie, I am talking to myself on this. I have not addressed what you said as of yet. It just so happened the buying humus subject came up at the same time. I understand fully what you have said and in IMO it is all good...

Blutranes

Blu, I understand completely and I'm not trying to shift the subject. We've had discussions of what one can buy in bags from humus to potting soil. I throw it in because many believe everything written on labels.
And, I think you are not talking about 1.07 retail bags of something called "humus".

Yes I am talking about those $1.07 bags, I purchased at least 50 of them a number of years back for flower beds I was making. To compare those beds (then) to the beds as they are now is less than fair...

Blutranes

Blu, I went back and re-read the post and I don't understand the point? Try it in a couple of sentences.

How do peat, peat moss, and peat humus fit into this picture?

Maggie,

How come I have so much trouble understanding what you are talking about? Give me a clue so I can zero in on what you are saying, I really do want to understand the first time you say what you say. Can you help me out with this...

Blutranes

Blu,
Interesting, I have the same problem with your post.
Skip mine, it will save rumination and consternation not to mention constipation.

(Blink)

You two! Answer my question or get a room.

Paulns, sorry for the delayed posting...

The organic matter you mention are formed in water. They are basically the same save the material that made the peat.

From link provided:

"Where no free oxygen exists (e.g. in water), decomposition of organic matter occurs by anaerobic organisms. This process is much slower than that conducted by aerobic organisms but can, in the long run, produce a greater amount of humus (e.g. muck or organic soil). Humus formed under water is slightly different than its aerobic counterpart due more to the nature of the residues from the two different environments than the process of aerobic vs. anaerobic humification. Most of the contributions of organic matter to organic soils are from water dwelling insects and microbes that have a higher percentage of protein than the plant residues found in forests, fields, or gardens. Other components come from organic residues transported by wind and water currents to a location where they can accumulate and settle. Much of this translocated material may already be humus. Higher percentages of humus are found in soils formed anaerobically because conditions are more favorable for humus accumulation and less favorable for its destruction."

Of course there is much more information that can be found for peat specifically, I am just attempting to keep it simple...

Blutranes

So did you buy 50 bags of peat moss or peat humus?

Paulns, peat, peat moss, and peat humus are 3 terms used loosely in the retail market.

Michigan Peat company owned and sold sphagnum peat and some confuse sphagnum peat moss with the other 3 terms.

Either 1st or 2nd they dredged bogs and harvested reedsedge peat or the bottoms of these bodies of fairly stagnent water. Others also drained bogs and bagged and sold these products as peat, peat moss, peat humus, then entered the term "humus", "organic humus", etc. All of these products are sort of made up marketing names.

Better to listen to Blu about specifics or search for specific information about this subject and try to determine what you may have or buy.

Now if you have a bag of say "peat" and want to know, call the company and ask what is the source of the product in the bag.

Blutranes,

Have you successfully created compost?

I think you're overthinking it. If you answer yes, then you have humus.

There are two types of humus:

1) Any organic matter which has reached a point of stability, where it will break down no further and might, if conditions do not change, remain essentially as it is for centuries, or millennia.

2) Mature compost, or natural compost extracted from a forest or other spontaneous source for use to amend soil.

The reason I ask is because I have never seen a bag labelled 'humus' or 'peat humus' in any garden centre, hardware store, nursery, etc, but 'peat' or 'peat moss' or 'sphagnum peat' or 'soilless mix' are easily found. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

One of the benefits of organic gardening is I have become more observant. Not only in the garden but in other areas of life as well. I have found that just about any farm/garden website can produce good information regardless of purpose. By being able to remain focused toward what I am looking for, I can get the best a site has to offer. Allow me one example.

Commercial websites are just like commercials on television programs. The best commercial websites offer FAQs or details about what their product imitates. The link provided will aid in my point. "Actagro" offers humus it mined for sale to the public. They have really nice pictures of "before and after" results using their product on the side for your viewing pleasure (I assume).

Now, if you think about a television show, most of the commercials occur at the beginning, the middle, and the end; with the most ads in the middle of the program. The same thing happens on the "Actagro" website. So, all the information about humus is found in between the "Actagro" commercial paragraphs. They have a nice ad at the top of the page; three paragraphs about "humus", and then you get an "Actagro" commercial. Two more paragraphs about "humus", and then you get your middle " Actagro" commercial (2 paragraphs). Five more paragraphs of "humus" information, then an "Actagro" commercial paragraph mixed in with "humus" information. The rest is a pitch to get you to send "Actagro" money for knowing so much about "humus". This is a site geared towards the large scale farmer, but it gives information the small scale organic gardener can use to grow better plants through a better understanding given freely by "Actagro, LLC". The information provided should be cutting edge technology to protect the company from lawsuits, but it never hurts to check other sources as well.

Not all websites are like that, but there are a lot of them that are. It really boils down to the viewers point of view and intent. Some sites will even tell you what is in their product. Some of the time what they are selling you can mix in your backyard with a worn out 2 quart saucepan and a 5-gallon bucket. Some sell things that are found in your compost pile or are sitting in your kitchen right this very minute. Again, it all about "point of view and intent"; "I am looking for information I can use, and I intend to use it without giving you any of my money."

Some sites I spend my money with, but I can count them on one hand. Once you get the hang of "point of view/intent" you can go anywhere and get information. I really like chemical fertilizer websites geared towards large scale farmers. They give out great information; all I have to do is convert what they are talking about to organic terminology and scale down the size. And if you have never looked at a commercial farmers product site you are in for a treat with "point of view/intent" as your motivation. Farmers are serious growers; they feed the family off the money from the field. They have it down to a science, no, an art form are better words. You may not be that interested in this level of learning; I am just offering a resource you may have not considered.

That was in me and had to come out, I love using that technique. Try it out for yourself, or create your own form of gathering information no matter the source. It is a tool for the garden that pays well IMO

Blutranes

Peat, humus are terms used early when bagged product became more prevalent in garden centers down here most of it came from the north, Michigan for IN, KY, TN. As freight went up more and more sources closer to the market sprang up. Leading to terms like organic humus. Milburn Peat in LaPorte IN tried to sue to keep people from using the term "peat", never went very far.
Now in CAN the market is more knowledgable about peat and sphagnum so terms like organic humus or peat humus would not work.

Violet,

Thanks...

Paulns,

The bags I got from Wal-Mart said "humus". This was around 2001 the last time I purchased any. They also had bags of stuff called "topsoil", it contained a bunch of stuff I still don't know what it is. Down here the weather is too hot to use Peat, it would dry out too quickly to be of any use. That is why I suggested what I did, I have no first hand knowledge with any type of Peat...

Blutranes

You sure have got me thinking about this in a different way, one would think I had become mentally lazy or something. What are you up too anyway? Nothing really, just talking to myself, I do it all the time

Now that we have a simple basic knowledge we can build upon, we can move on to think about what is happening on top of all this humus we are attempting to create and protect. The goal is to get the humus at least six inches or more below the surface so the feeder roots of the plants are moving slap in the middle of this paradise. I am going to use a website I learned of from a gardener that got ill just after he posted the link. I havent seen him post since then and do trust he is doing well. Let me warn you of one thing, going to the home page of this link will put you in a different world; talk about "taking things seriously", that is an understatement.

I thought with starting to build humus I was done, are you being extreme again? No, but we have to put something on top of the humus; why not make sure it will aid in humus building and provide the plants the best environment to grow in? By doing a little extra work now we can do a little extra less work later. I dont know about you, but I am trying to put the seed down, water that baby in, and come back in about a week and see some green showing. I love plants so much I only plant one seed per hole, it is too hard for me to cull a great looking seedling, so if the seed doesnt come up I just plant another seed; one will come up sooner or later. I am not fooling myself into thinking all these plants will mature at the same time, plants dont wear watches remember.

"In recent years, especially since the interest in organic agriculture has thrived, a new theory on soil fertility has come to the forefront of discussion. Known under various names, current soil biology theory does not focus on only basic minerals in assessing fertility. Instead it highlights the role of soil organisms and the relationship they have with each other, minerals and plants in guiding overall fertility. Several methods for supporting soil life are now being utilized to enhance fertility and overall crop yields."

What are you up to now? Just saying there is more than one way to grow some sweet potatoes is all. No one way is right or wrong, there are different ways to do it. There is not a reason that I can think of to feel our way is better; better than who, compared to what, under whose jurisdiction? The weather in this country alone makes America unique. It can be dumping rain in the PNW, fires in northern Calif., earth tremors in central Calif., Santa Anna winds in southern Calif., freezing temperatures in the upper Midwest, snow in the Midwest, drought in the Texas, a noreast-er dumping feets of snow on the east coast, a hurricane touring the gulf coast states, people further inland in the south wearing tee shirts and headed to Dairy Queen, all at the same time on the same day! We dont have to own the best technique; we just need to get our update on the weather at 11:00pm on "Action News at 11".

"Researchers have found that when crop yields are high, the number of microbes found in the soil are also high. Organic farmers are learning that they will be most successful in managing their systems by maximizing soil life. A successful organic farmer will not rely solely on NPK management, but instead learn about the organisms in their soil and how to create conditions in which they thrive."

We want the microbe economy to be booming in our soil. We want them to need for nothing, when the microbes seek they will find. We do this with our compost, soil amendments, and foliar sprays. We use our eyes to see what is going on, have our tools at the ready, and before we do anything we view as "trouble" ask the question "why is that happening to my plant?" Everyone has their own composting technique so I wont go there, but I will say the longer it cures the closer to humus it will be when it makes its debut in the soil. As it relates to amendments (fertilizers) consider this if you will; If all you hear in the news media are warning bells about how lacking our food is in nutrition, what makes you think just because you composted that nutrient lacking refuge it is going to all of a sudden manifest some nutrition? We are recycling over here, if there are no nutrients to recycle what exactly are you up to anyway? There may not be any absolutes around here, but nothing from nothing leaves nothing absolutely. The foliar sprays are our booster shots. The base could be made of a compost tea from our oldest and best stock. Compost from the bottom of the pile is best for tea if you use teas, on the bottom is the best humus making conditions, and dont forget to get a little soil mixed in there too. Check the linked website for microbe functions and watch out for the commercial.

What about watering, what are your thoughts on that? Well, the technique I am using now comes from the gentleman that I got the link from on this post. I read his thoughts about watering and it made sense to me. I didnt run out and buy the book he was talking about; his word was good enough for me. I have not followed exactly what he said, but I took what I needed as anyone should do IMO. The idea is not to change what you are doing; it is to add what you think will work with what you are already doing. If you have a question about one of your techniques ask somebody about it. If you see what you are doing is not working very well, stop doing that and do something else. Experiment, test, try out for a while, buy an extra plant to test something new you read. Do something with those seeds you have been holding on to for too long. Live a little, show a little knee, get out there and dance anyway, for once is all we get to live: Link.

Hey, this isnt so bad, is there more? Yes, but I need some coffee right now. And you thought all those hippies had went back to the nothing-ness from which they came; HA! You live and you learn

Blutranes

more thoughts on humus, and some about the relationships of N, soil life and compost

Bill

Thanks Bill,

Blutranes

Thanks for your post about conservation of water.
I feel the same way and your post confirms.
The depth of beds in square foot gardening is only 6 inches. Yet the plants grow well.

Fermentation.
My friends mother who is originally from Okinawa ferments feed grains.
She adds some soil, molasses and a Japanese sauce it (do not remember).She even adds fine grade pine bark mulch to it. She adds that slurp to the soil.Her garden does really well.

There is a good visible fungus growth on her soil.
I will try that this year.

Blu, I quote you
"Everyone has their own composting technique so I wont go there, but I will say the longer it cures the closer to humus it will be when it makes its debut in the soil."

Does it matter if the compost composts/cures on top of the soil or in a pile?

Eswar, that fermented slurp sounds really interesting. Any chance you could get the recipe from your friends mom and post it here?

Maggiemae2006,

Glad to see you have gotten over your constipation. I do hope you found relief quickly and painlessly.

It will cure faster in a pile. It all depends on top of the soil; is it mulched, is it moist, how deep is it layered? If managed properly on the soil it will cure IMO...

Blutranes

Eswar, that fermented slurp sounds really interesting. Any chance you could get the recipe from your friends mom and post it here

Fermented slurp.

I met her few times.I visited her garden.It is meticulous. Little tilling.
There are few things I learned from her.
To buy the cobra head weader.
Instead buying a raised bed (not handy and disabled so I can not build one) to use swimming pool planters available at Lowes 24 inches diameter. And 7 inches in depth,durable costs 13 dollars.
She insulates them with whte kitchen bags; keeps news paper inside.This lessens drying the soil. Available near the pool section at Lowes.

To start the composting the straw bales. Simply by wetting it thoroughly on all 4 sides with dilute molasses. Wait till the inside of the bale get warm and mold develops. Keep it wet with molasses. It takes few days.

The solid molasses here cost 5 dollars per 25 pound bag. They are basically grain coated with liquid molasses. Soak them in 5 gallon bucket for few days. In the bottom of the bucket the grain settles. Stir it few times. This is the one used to wet the straw bales. This is also done to all mulches. She says it helps in the breakdown process. I started this fall and it is true. She also adds a couple of tablespoonfuls of dolomite lime. And occasionally a tablespoon of ammonium sulphate (not strictly organic).Calcium hastens composting, breakdown process.

The other thing I learnt
Different feeds have different amino acids. They are slightly different percentage of proteins wise. I do not know the role of amino acids in gardening...
She told me to use horse feed for mares also. (Lactating horses). It costs little more but comes fortified with vitamins and calcium.

The same supernatant molasses (with lime) liquid is pored when ever she digs, in to the bottom of the hole.. I guess this promotes bacterial and fungal activity..
The sauce is made from rice used in Japanese cooking. Since we live in Kentucky it is available in Lexington, KY (Toyota plant is near by-lots of Japanese families).
The bottoms grains slurp from molasses are mixed with the soil.
Next time I will post about feed grain slurp. I think the idea is faster decomposition and increase the bio availability .For that reason it can be added in the spring season also.

The basic differences are use multiple grains. Corn meal soya bean meal, horse feed, a spoon of lime, Fish waste from the kitchen, alfalfa, molasses,miso rice sauce,manure and let the grains swell, start smelling and then add it to the soil.
A fifty pound bag goes long way.
She calls the expensive fertilizers you get by mail order as "boutique fertilizers."

You ready to start? Yes, for the last time. What do you mean the last time? When we are done this time I will be done talking about humus to you. Where will I find out something I dont know? You will know, trust me.

"The urgency to emphasize the importance of humic substances and their value as fertilizer ingredients has never been more important than it is today. All those concerned about the ability of soils to support plant growth need to assist in educating the public. Humic substances are recognized by most soil scientists and agronomists as the most important component of a healthy fertile soil. To illustrate how humic substances function, the following summary, based on published scientific data, has been prepared as a guide for an educational program. In addition, by understanding how these carbon containing substances function, professionals will have a solid foundation on which to design environmentally acceptable sustainable agriculture programs."

Hey! Wait a minute Blutranes, this is off that website those people got mad about; you are going to talk about this page? Yes, this is the last page; lets start. The second sentence is what this has been all about, "helping to educate the public". We cant educate each other when we are at each others throats. This site is for educators (teacher/professor) to use as a guideline for helping the public to learn how important humus is to all of us. This page is meant to be used to develop a program of learning about humus, not to debate about. The bottom line says this page is meant to form a "solid foundation" for the profession to aid farmers in "developing an environmentally acceptable sustainable agriculture program". This is important; so lets get down to the business we came here to do.

Here are the rulesdo not worry about weights and do not worry about formulas, they have nothing to do with what we are doing. After you get an understanding you can go back to them if you choose, but for now, ignore them.

"Organic Matter- A fertile soil should contain from 2-8 percent organic matter; most soils contain less than 2%. In acid, leached soils, which are often sandy, substantial portions of the organic matter is in the form of plant debris and fulvic acids. In neutral and alkaline soils a large percentage of the organic matter is in the form of humic acids and humin." The importance of humic and fulvic acids as well as humins will become clear later. For now note which is present in either alkaline and acidic soils.

"An accurate measurement of the soil would be helpful in monitoring soil fertility. (Formula on page) Neither one of these extractants is able to remove all of the organic matter from a soil sample. Obviously since these chemicals are the best known it is impossible to determine the exact amount of organic matter present within a soil. In reality soil organic matter is not a measurable soil component. The organic matter content of a soil sample, reported on soil tests, is only an estimate. The organic carbon content of a soil can be measured and would be a much more valuable indication of the potential humic-chemistry of a soil. The soils carbon content would be a desirable part of a soil test report."

Because organics is about life in the soil there is no way to measure that life. In soil tests they can guess, pretend they know, or just admit the truth. Our soils are forever changing, sometimes from hour to hour depending on the conditions above (temperature, sun) and below (moisture, roots of plants). We know of this from making compost, spring/summer faster than fall/winter in most areas. There is no chemical that can measure dynamic life in the soil.

The definitions are easy to understand, you have seen them before. What I want to focus on are the three of the known components of humus, they are what make the boat float.

"Humin- Humin will not decompost under almost any condition. Some of the main functions of humins within the soil are to improve the soils water holding capacity, to improve soil structure, to maintain soil stability, to function as a cation exchange system, and to generally improve soil fertility. Because of these important functions humin is the key component of fertile soils."

"Humic Acid- Humic acids are soluble in water under alkaline conditions. Humic acids consist of that fraction of humic substances that are precipitated from aqueous solution when the pH is decreased below 2. Humic acid readily bind clay minerals to form stable organic-clay complexes. Peripheral pores in the plant are capable of accommodating (binding) natural and synthetic organic chemicals in a lattice (clathrate) type arrangement. Humic acids readily form salts with inorganic trace mineral elements. An analysis of extracts of naturally occurring humic acids will reveal the presence of over 60 different mineral elements present. These trace elements are bound in humic acid molecules in a form that can be readily utilized by various living organisms. As a result humic acids function as important ion-exchange and metal-complexing (chelating) systems."

"Fulvic Acid - fulvic acids are soluble in water at all pH conditions (acidic, neutral and alkaline). Their composition and shape is quite variable. The size of fulvic acids is smaller than humic acids, and have an oxygen content twice that of humic acids. The exchange capacity of fulvic acids is more than double that of humic acids. Because of the relatively small size of fulvic acids molecules they can readily enter plant roots, stems, and leaves. As they enter these plant parts they carry trace minerals from plant surfaces into plant tissues. Fulvic acid are the key ingredients in high quality foliar fertilizers. Foliar spray applications containing fulvic acid mineral chelates, at specific plant growth stages, can be used as a primary production technique for maximizing the plants productive capacity. Once applied to plant foliage fulvic acids transport trace minerals directly to metabolic sites in the plant cells. Fulvic acids are the most effective carbon containing chelating compounds known. They are plant compatible, thus non-toxic, when applied at relatively low concentrations."

You are getting on my nerves, what in the HELL are you talking about? I am telling you that you should understand that humins are what all the fuss is about in your compost and soil. I am telling you that the humic and fulvic acids are what do all the work in your soil and in compost tea. I am telling you that if you soak some humus in water, add the right nutrients, the liquid result of that soaking will make your plants do things you never thought possible. I am telling you that if you pour some of that liquid on your plant roots they will turn into super-roots and do what they are designed to do because you have given them what they have been waiting for. I am telling you when you use that liquid, your stalks will get so strong you may need a machete to cut the down at the end of the season. I am telling you that if you use that liquid your fruits and vegetables will be so full of nutrition and the weight of the fruit will be hard to believe. I am telling you that by using this liquid you can control to a certain extent how big your plants get, how much you will harvest, and when the harvest will stop. I am telling you that if you make the mistake of putting too much of those acids on your grass you will have to cut your grass damn near every other day. I am telling you that if you live in a short growing season you will be able to accelerate your plant growth to fit what you want that growth to be. I am telling you that if you use those acids you will water your plants less, use less fertilizer, load your fruit with nutrition, cause your fruit to have a natural sweetness that will drive your tongue wild, and make everybody you know want what you have in your garden and I dont care what you grow.

Listen to me closely. Make sure you understand what I have said about humic and fulvic acids above. Then go to that website and find this heading:

"HUMIC SUBSTANCES AND THEIR INFLUENCE ON SOIL FERTILITY"

The reading is easy to understand for the most part. Read what this Professor is telling you these acids will do to almost any plant. Pay attention to what he says will happen to each part of the plant when you squirt some of that humic/fulvic acid on your plants. From that heading to the end of the page is very long; this is because the list of what these acids do is very long. He will tell you things like this:

"Plant nutrients within foliar fertilizers are rapidly absorbed by the plant leaves. Within 8 hours after applications of humic substances are applied, changes in many different metabolic processes are detected. Enhanced carbohydrates production can be detected within 24 to 48 hours after foliar feeding by use of a refractometer."

The Professor is saying if you spray a plant you will see a change in 8 hours. Spray before you go to work, come back home after work and get a surprise. A refractometer measure sap/sugar levels in vegetables. He is saying within 24-48 hours of spraying you will have sweet-juicy on your hands.

People are getting rich selling this stuff, and you are making it in your back yard every day. And you have gotten good at making it too! If you let your compost develop enough humus in it before you put it in the soil you will be putting a stick of dynamite around your plants. You do not have to grow giant vegetables, you control how big they get by how much you use. If you like small fruit, then spray a small amount, soil drench less; you will have the power to control what happens in your garden, flowerbed, and lawn. Regardless the size, if you give your plants all they need they will give you health and life. Go look at this website and see what this man and his family are doing with humus and the acids found within. Look around their website and see the potential we already possess. Link

When you realize for yourself what I have been trying to say and prove it yourself you may feel different. Some who already know what I have said have been watching. They too have tried to share this wealth of information for a long time with everyone. Most have given up and just sit back and watch everyone burn their butts jumping through a hoop on fire. They know if you use these sprays most bugs will leave your plants alone, disease will be manageable. They know how your harvest will taste and what it will do to your body. They have been trying to tell you, and mostly everyone has been cursing them out. Most of you should be ashamed of your behavior, on one side of your mouth you say you love the earth; but on the other side you invite the people that can show you how to help save the earth to kiss your compost pile. Well, that is ok too. The only way I could get some of you to leave me alone long enough to share this was to start a post and demand that I be allowed to talk to myself; to say this to myself so you could read it with your own eyes in peace.

Read again and again what the good Professor has to say until you understand it. Yes, he uses a lot of words because he has a lot to say. And if some really care as much as some claim, some will listen and learn, and then go out and teach others as the professor has asked. When you find out for yourself what this man and many other men/women have been trying to share is true you too will own a great responsibility. What will you do with all this fantastic knowledge? Will you nit-pick at people who do not know, or laugh at their spelling errors/typos? Or will you help them to understand and show them the way to create paradise? That will forever be your decision.

I really would like to thank Tiffy, Donn, Bsgreen, Gardengal, Gonefishin, Pablo nh, Swanz, Albert 135, Squeeze, Paulns, Claire, Heptacodium, and Pls8xx for helping me to do this. For it was their examples that guided me through the maze of humanity to get to this point. I am grateful for each and every one of you. If I failed to mention your name and I should have, I will do so at a later time, thank you too. If I have made any mistakes in wording I trust others will point out the correct information to keep us all on the right path; I thank you for your knowledgeable help.

Humus is a powerful force on this planet, a giver of life and health. It is not necessary to use a lot, it is not wise to be greedy with it. In using humus one enters the world of "the powerful little" I once read. You can buy a bottle of liquid kelp and it will last a very long time. Someone called me a "mad scientist" the other day, now all of you can be "mad scientists" too. You can make your own brews, use less than a half-cup in a gallon of water and watch a miracle almost before your very eyes. Will humus fix everything? No, but if used right it will fix more than you can imagine. Science does not know everything humus does or how it does it. Have I shared everything I know about this? Hell no! Do you actually think ole Blutranes would go broke around here? HA!

I do ask one thing. Talk about what you learn together, share with others freely. Do your best to show respect to those who do not know what you know, give them a break. I was told, "Grace is something that is given to you that you dont deserve; Mercy is not giving you what you do deserve." Grace or mercy, what you give now is up to you

Blutranes

PS If you did not click on any of the links and read the material, none of this makes sense to you. This is a good thing for the rest of us.

Blutranes has put foreward three links to info.

The first was to one written by Paul Sachs. I find it to be a fair summation of knowledge from a number of sources, which he credits in his REFERENCES.

The second link is to a stardard commercial site. This one I didn't spend a lot of time reading. A gardener going there can understand he's getting advice from a salesman, and knows to expect to get hype with the facts.

On reading the third link, my first thought was that this needs a rebuttal, but I should wait until I could demonstrate by my own study the false conclusions it contains.

On further reflection, I think this article, written by Dr. Robert E. Pettit, needs it's true purpose unmasked now, not later.

First off, it appears the original publication of the article was at http://www.humate.info/ , a site sponsored by HumaTech, Inc. HumaTech was originally known as International Humate Fertilizer Co. Their website is http://humatech.com/.

Mr Pettit is or was an employee of the firm:
Technical Advisory Board:

Dr. Robert E. Pettit, Member Technical Advisory Board: Emeritus Associate Professor, Texas A&M University, Associate Professor of Plant Pathology, Department of Plant Pathology & Microbiology, and International Agriculture Consultant. Dr. Pettit has held the position of Director of Research and Product Development, International Hu, ,Co. Professional experience includes numerous years of developing and teaching graduate and undergraduate courses In the areas of "Diseases of Field Crops", "Bacterial Plant Diseases", "DIof Fruits, Vegetables, and Ornamental" and "Plant Pathogenic Fungi". In the Ic area Dr. Petitt was responsible for numerous research and development and grant projects concerning the "Diseases of Peanut" "Mycotoxins and Microflora Damage in Pecans" and Mycotoxins of Corn and Other Feed Grains" As an educator and consultant his profession has taken him to over 20 different foreign countries, and allowed him to publish in excess of 100 articles and abstracts in references journals, and several books throughout the world.

The first goal of marketing is to convince the public that they need the product, and second to distinquish the product as being superior to any similar one from other vendors. From the article "The quality and value of any one mined humate or humic add product depends on many different factors. A good humic material can be destroyed by improper mining or processing. Thus not all commercially marketed humic substances are equal in quality. "

Mr Pettit has a lot of very technical, and important science in his article. What is missing is a statement of his own research in this field. Unlike Paul Sachs he fails to credit the research behind his words, for a good reason too. The people doing the studies haven't come to the same sweeping conclusions Pettit would have us believe.

For example, Pettit touts the benefits of "free radicals". For the truth see the research of Cornelius Steelink, http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1964GeCoA..28.1615S

There is a lot of sales info around that masquerades as science. We should see this as what it is .... hype.

And about those products they sell, check out their site (humatech.com, frame "Agricultural Crops") Using our new Iso-Molecular Technology, we blend additional plant nutrients into these humic acids creating a superior organic complex.

Can it be that they mine lignite, charge the cations with the blue stuff, and sell it as magic humas?

Sometimes I think we need to do less reading and do more composting and gardening. Otherwise all that excess information bogs down my brain and I forget where I put last year's pea seeds. I wonder how come they are not in the box with the rest of the seeds?

CRS disease running rampant here.

I do realize its hard to do much of anything, except reading, when the ground is buried under a foot of snow.

Joepye, heh heh, thanks for the new (to me) joke. Or if I did hear it before I didnt remember it. :-D

We're not trying to pump a stock (HUMT) are we?? My bull crap detector is really starting to flash. Blu, straight out, are you, or any relative, affiliated, directly or indirectly, with HUMT? Do you, or any relative, own, directly or indirectly, any shares or have any interests in HUMT?

Lloyd

'Snatch the Humus from My Hand' Blutrane
:)

Gentlemen,

To attempt to attack what I have said is fruitless, for the facts need no defense. You see, in order to truly do justice to what has happened you would be forced to read all I have said. Just reading some of the links, disrespecting the fact that I have Legionnaires disease and thus forced to stay in the house, and making a pathetic attempt to accuse me of trying to sell something belittles the valiant attempt you all have made to discredit yours truly. The act of resorting to using "CAPS" and "fancy fonts" will bring you no credibility; it reflects desperation. You all have been outwitted, tricked, snookered, and yes manipulated into allowing ole Blutranes the time to share the good news he came here to demonstrate. The deed is done, the die has been cast, the fat lady has sung her song, there are no erasers, it is finished.

When spring comes to our side of the planet there will be a rush to prove what has been written in this thread. You already know what is going to happen; there will be a loud explosion of seedling growth ringing across the country. This message board will become abuzz with comments about what is going on in gardens around the world. Yes, there will be people who dont listen and use too much, but the majority will go slow, test and experiment, watch closely, and use this thread and the logic it presents to grow some of the most nutritious, healthy, mouthwatering fruits and vegetables any person would be proud to be the grower of. Gardens will be filling up with a layer of humus that will grow in thickness with each passing season. Farmers and gardeners, near and far, will have their own paradise and will give instruction to those who ask, the same way it was given to them.

If you would allow me, I would like to take this opportunity to use my closing sales pitch one more time in case someone missed it. I must insist I be allowed to get as much as I can before I release all of your ears and allow you to leave:

"I do ask one thing. Talk about what you learn together, share with others freely. Do your best to show respect to those who do not know what you know, give them a break. I was told, "Grace is something that is given to you that you dont deserve; Mercy is not giving you what you do deserve." Grace or mercy, what you give now is up to you"

Gentlemen, if you have not realized it yet, what you all have been given is "mercy". Take your gift, speak not another word, you are free to go seek your childish happiness somewhere else. I have a large supply of paper plates left over here, so just let this one go.

On a more positive note, I failed to give proper thanks to Kqcrna (Karen) for her fine example of how to treat her fellow gardener. Again I thank you all and trust your examples will spread to others on this message board.

Now- (snatching all the humus out of the hand of Paulns), smiling and looking around, (doing the "Elvis Presley" across that lice paper, leaving not a crease), Glasshopper has left the building

Blutranes

Personal experience is the best teacher of gardening. A close second might be the observation and experience of other gardeners and their opinions based upon that experience. Isn't this why we hang out at this forum?

Garden books may be a good source of knowledge, but you can't ask a book a question. Information posted to a forum is open for further clarification and comments from other gardeners.

I suppose one could say that I made an "attact" in this thread. But it wasn't directed at Blutranes. My feeling is that Blutranes' observation, experience, and even his opinions, are as valuable to us as any other forum member.

It's common for members to link to what they feels is an authority on some aspect of gardening. The info is almost certain to be put to the acid test, as well it should.

In this thread I took issue with only one of the three links, the paper by Mr. Pettit. One of the basic questions to be asked of any authority is if there a strong personal motive for what they are saying. In the case of Pettit the answer was yes, and that motive was hidden from the readers. It deserved to be exposed and was.

There may well be important features to the science of humus. As Blutranes studies these items and puts them in practice in his garden I think he will become much more the expert than is Mr. Pettit. Hopefully he will continue to relate his experiences here.

"You all have been outwitted, tricked, snookered, and yes manipulated into allowing ole Blutranes the time to share the good news he came here to demonstrate."

"use my closing sales pitch one more time"

Very interesting.

Lloyd

Eswar, thanks for the Fermented slurp. Looking forward to the next recipe on feed grain slurp.

What are the straw bales used for, for planting in? Is the solid molasses the stuff called "sweet feed"?

Me? Huh? What did I do?

Karen

Prejudice is an ugly thing to have. It clouds ones mind and shuts off the flow of imagination IMO. Prejudice for the most part occurs as a result of influence or experience, both of a negative nature. I wonder what it would look like to see someone with a prejudice towards compost/organic gardening? The people who are forced to tolerate this prejudice will be paying for a memory they had nothing to do with. This is not a good thing IMO.

All who have read this entire thread should know there are more than 3 links total in my posts. The only way to not know this is to have not read the posts or paid little attention to what was said. To inject oneself into a conversation they know little of what has been said is rude to be kind, and insulting to say the least. There were 6 links total; three used as a reference, one used as an example of how to gather free information from commercial sites, one used as an example of humus potential, and one as an alternative watering technique. All were normal websites save one, that one was a "blog". To post a mans entire career, minus his tax returns for the last five years as a result of something posted on a "blog" is something I still dont understand. As well, my comments concerning "peat moss" are already registered as to how I handle matters I have no experience with. You would have had to read the posts to know this.

My experience with compost tea does not lay in my future; it originates from my past. In late 02, early 03 aerobic compost tea became focused on message boards. On the "Dirt Doctor" forum and others sites aerobic compost tea was a very hot topic. Although there were many commercial machines, one of the first "do-it-yourself" models manifested on the "Dirt Doctor" website. "The Bruce Deuleys Little Texas Tea Maker" stepped up to the plate. A simple machine, made with parts purchased at Wal-Mart. When I saw it, I immediately made my list, checked it twice, and headed to the truck to go get my parts! In less than three hours I was brewing me a batch just like on the pictures, the rest is history. You cannot get better results for the money using "the little tea maker". I have gone on to make my own 55-gallon brewer with minor modifications to "The Bruce Deuleys Little Texas Tea Maker", with fantastic results. You can get the original link Here; it is found in the second "Dchall" post. I could sit here all day and type storied about what happens when you listen to "Dchall", but if you look at the lawn on the tea maker website you will get an idea of what can happen when you do.

Organic gardening is more than research and experimentation, it is more than what I think; it evolved into what I feel. If you do this long enough you will feel when the pile is made right. You will feel when the bed is planted perfect IMO, the mulch thick enough, when it is time to go get those "cukes". Yes, eyes are important, and I use mine a lot just looking at my property when most around here are weeding. I dont post here to "be somebody", a big shot who knows all the answers. I came here to "become somebody", to become a member people trust and want to know what I feel/think about a question. I dont race to get my fruit ripe first; people race to get here first when the fruit is ripe. To gain trust takes time, but with it comes patience. Time will tell concerning all this, when that time comes I will be the last to say, "I told you so"

Blutranes

Eswar, thanks for the Fermented slurp. Looking forward to the next recipe on feed grain slurp.
What are the straw bales used for, for planting in? Is the solid molasses the stuff called "sweet feed"?

Here in USA she says do with ever you have.
Instead of using earthen ware pots, use five gallon Plastic buckets.
Since Rice hulls are not available here use feed grains. Omitted rice hulls entirely.
Since in our neighborhood no grass clippings are available (small yard too many restrictions), Used straw to cover it. Straw dries too fast .Need to keep it moist.
I for got to add rotten fruits and fruit peelings.
They wait for 2 weeks Plus. I am a bit impatient. I wait for 4 to 5 days.
They do it in the warm season I started it in Late September
This slurp, brew is added to the soil. The brew can also be used for watering.
One bottle of rice sauce costs 5 dollars. I used only few ounces.
Even inspite of non compliance, Still it works.
Instead of using liquid molasses I used solid molasses as I have a bag already.
I guess simply it is like pre cooked food for the soil and bacteria.

Last night the temp went down to 18 degrees. The slurp got frozen

Keep It Simple
Humus is organic matter in a state of decomposition...COMPOST
thats it!