The problem is that the ARS is mainly (exclusively?) interested in labeling roses to best organize them for show purposes, not to deal with taxonomic issues, as Jackie has pointed out. So why, you may wonder, are they in charge of assigning names and classifications if they are going to disregard the facts?

Probably because at the time they were made the International Registrar Authority, they had sufficient wealth and people to handle a pain in the neck function for which no rewards, other than the "prestige" of being the authority could be had. Now, who else is there to do it? Even more importantly, WHO else would want to?

As many of us are aware, the ARS attempted to charge for registering a rose some years ago. That failed miserably. Not only did the US majors stop registering them, the Europeans stopped and some never came back. Kim

I was once told that 'Colonial White', AKA 'Sombreuil' was, in that persons opinion, a sport of New Dawn, sort of like a white version of 'Awakening', I suppose. I doubt that because CW does not seem to be quite as hardy as ND, or many other of its' descendents.

What are the chances of CW being a ND sport? Is anyone growing CW anywhere colder than USDA zone 6a?

While ARS has certainly made some big mistakes over the years, and in many areas has much to answer for, I have to disagree on this one, with greatest respect for some of my "rose heroes" above, who don't agree with the decision.

I was on the Classification and Registration committees when this went through, and here was the train of thought (with which I still have to agree, with only small reservations):

1. "Colonial White" was rejectable in that there was no reason to think its namer was its originator/introducer. Also, we did not feel inclined to "reward" a suspected rose thief for his efforts. In any case, this rose could not possibly be the rose (based on parentage) that he claimed it was.

2. The vast majority of people in the US (and perhaps the rest of the world?) already knew this rose as 'Sombreuil', thanks to RoYT's many years of selling it under that name, while relatively few had heard of or grown 'Colonial White'. There is always the confusion issue -- how many people will we anger and for what reason(s)?

3. Since the old Tea rose is better named 'Mlle. de Sombreuil', there was no true duplication of names here. (Also again, most Americans were not growing that rose, or if they were, they were growing it as 'La Biche', the name given it by the Huntington's ID, and under which it was long sold by ARE.)

As for the possibility of 'New Dawn' being a parent, that would be very easy to test, and I'd be happy to add it to the list of questions we want to answer through DNA work. As always, there is a shortage of students with the time and interest to actually run those tests, so we only accomplish a few of them per year. But this would be a great (and easy) one to do.

Yes there was certainly some concern about a change of name from an exhibitor's standpoint, but in this case, I really think the interests of the Old-Rose community were also taken heavily into account, and I did vote in favor of the current naming situation for these roses.

This post was edited by malcolm_manners on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 13:57

Thanks, Malcolm! So good to get facts from those who were there at the time. Re the DNA list, I vote for putting the issue re Sombreuil/New Dawn on the list!

I understand the reluctance you describe re not "rewarding" bad behavior. However, now that we can use hindsight to assess what that ARS decision did, I have a strong impression that keeping Sombreuil as the name has turned out to have extended/continued the confusion about 'Sombreuil' being a tea rose, which it certainly is not. An example is the fact that HMF is still listing 'Sombreuil' as having been hybridized in 1880! Also, I have seen it described in more than one current catalogue as a tea rose.

I don't think this sort of confusion would have occurred if the ARS had accepted the name Colonial White, and listed the hybridizer & time of hybridization as unknown. That way the continuing (and to me maddening) references to this rose as a tea rose would probably not be still going on. I am interested in this rose, which is a fabulous rose. Folks who could probably grow it won't even try if they think it is cold tender. The rose should not be punished because its parentage is unknown and its introduction was clouded.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20, so I am not so much criticizing the decision as lamenting it. If DNA analysis could be done, and if it revealed part of its parentage, that would be great, as it would provide facts as to its likely cold hardiness, etc.

Jackie

Malcolm, thank you! Sharing the thought process behind the decision explains a lot and makes it much easier to understand. I appreciate it.

Nastrana, reduced arctic hardiness isn't necessarily an indication that Sombreuil isn't a sport of New Dawn. A sport may easily be altered from the original in many respects, but it's the obvious, visible changes we're most easily aware of. Jim Delahanty had (still grows in his garden) an orange sport of Distant Drums which resembled the original in many respects, except flower color and its chronic addiction to mildew in that garden. The original would grow through the mildew. The orange sport refused to, no matter what he did to/for/with it.

Radiance and Red Radiance are very strong growers. Mrs. Charles Bell isn't quite as vigorous. Careless Love is even less vigorous, but still usually decent enough for most gardens. There are many other examples of mutations being degenerative, and also a number where they actually improve the plant. I wanted to attempt to give examples, but it appears HMF is under attack again, so I can't check my facts yet. Kim

How interesting to read that my perceived impression of the courtliness of ladies & gentlemen engaged in rose breeding is in fact wrong.

Apparently, the business can be as down-in-the-dirt nasty & dishonest as the cattle breeding & registration I'm more familiar with.

I used to personally breed cows at several big-name ranches--& the things that go on! The favored method of recording lineage of many new calves was: "well, he looks like 'Mr. Big Bull'--write that down".

Roses or calves--PEOPLE are the same everywhere :)

Yes ma'am, people are people, no matter what the industry or pursuit. Some pursuits naturally attract more of the 'down in the dirt nasty" people than others. My impression is those are the ones offering the greatest rewards, fastest. Kim

Malcolm -- That DNA test would be a great boon! I hope it can be done.

I have to say, tho, that I agree with Jackie -- Retaining the name 'Sombreuil,' and that 1880 date, may have been done with great intentions, but it sure has extended the confusion about the whole thing.

Jeri

Oh dear, oh dear - it is MUCH worse than I had imagined! I googled "Sombreuil rose", and of course up popped several web sites. Just taking the first few (ignoring HMF) here is what came up:

Austin - showed picture of Sombreuil/Colonial White. Said it was an "old variety". Described Colonial White's growth habit exaclty. Did say that it was hardy, but also said that it was bred by Roberts (who was the hybridizer of Mlle. de Sombreuil).

Beales - Showed picture of Sombreuil/Colonial White. Described Sombreuil/Colonial White's growth habit exactly. Said that it was bred by Roberts in 1850, and that it was a Cl tea. Zone 6-9.

Other gardening & nursery web sites said that it was a Cl tea noisette, bred in 1850, which was also called Colonial White, and liked a warm climate. All of the pictures were always of Sombreuil/Colonial White.

So, it appears to me that NONE of these sites have accurate information, and all have some sort of confusion with Mlle. de Sombreuil. NONE of them said it was a large flowered climber which might be a winchurana hybrid, and therefore might be cold hardy. I honestly don't think this would still be happening, 100% of the time, if the ARS had agreed to use the name Colonial White, to stop the confusion. Instead, it is proliferating.

As I said, my only concern going forward is that when all of the resources say it is a warm weather rose, many folks will not even try to grow it.

Does anyone on here grow it, or know that it is growing, in a zone colder than 6? That would be good information.

Jackie

Even if the ARS had chosen to correct the confusion, Jackie, it would have still been unable to fix all the stuff you found. As you know, every piece of misinformation ever put on line remains there virtually forever. Add those who refuse to accept the change, no matter how irrefutable the proof and there would still be many instances of misinformation. How long was it known that "Jefferson Rose" was actually Softee, yet many still sold it as Jefferson Rose without the added information that it had been identified? It has been quite interesting reading old nursery lists and finding instances like this where the same rose was sold under the various names. Ashdown once offered the same rose under the names, Cornet, Grandmother's Hat AND Mrs. R. G. Sharman-Crawford. I received an email from a friend complaining he'd ordered one and was told it was sold out, yet the other two were in stock, in high quantities. There are often a variety of factors involved. Kim

Yeah, that sort of thing cooled me off from buying many 'found' roses.

Pretty soon even an amateur like myself recognized many of them were known varieties & I wondered whether selling them as 'found' roses was an excuse to avoid royalties. I saw Graham Thomas sold as a found rose in several nurseries 'way back when, & several Buck roses. Quite a few famous oldies like Crimson Glory, which are out of patent, too, but it seemed to me they were marketed as foundlings to increase novelty appeal.

Jackie,

I grew Sombreuil (grafted from Pickering if I remember correctly) for several years, in the '80s, when we were listed as Z5b. It grew to about 12 feet but eventually died one winter. However, an ash tree was increasingly shading it and so its demise may have been due to a combination of factors.

Cath

The one I had, in zone 5a, did not survive the winter. I am so far able to grow Parade, Rosy Mantle, Cherryade, Rhonda, and Coral Dawn, all New Dawn progeny.

One reason you see Found Roses under multiple names is that they were found by different people in different places.

A while back, Heritage Roses Group took to contacting nurseries to point out that they had the same rose under multiple names. Some nurseries did actually look at that, and corrected the problem.

Others didn't. And of course, some still list that climbing rose as Sombreuil, AND say it is a Tea Rose int. in 1850.

But if you look at HelpMeFind, you'll see that, wherever possible, they have listed all of the names applied to a given rose, and cross-referenced them. Very helpful!

Jeri

Malcolm, as long as the subject of DNA testing has come up, would it be possible to add Grandmother's Hat to the short list? With all the speculation on whom she might be.... Cornet seems to be a leading contender. If plant material of Cornet from Sangerhausen could be obtained, would one of the students be able to compare the DNA and see if they are one and the same?

Melissa

The problem is that while "Grandmother's Hat" seems to be a match for the rose now labeled 'Cornet,' at Sangerhausen, there is no guarantee that Sangerhausen's 'Cornet' is actually the historic 'Cornet.'

Thus, testing one against another doesn't get you any forrarder.

Jeri

Yes Tessiess and Jeri -- exactly right. Very easy to test if two roses are the same, or if one is the other's offspring. But neither of those two bits of knowledge can give the ultimate, original ID of the variety.
Still, it would be interesting to know for sure if "Grandmother's Hat" is the same as Sangerhausen's 'Cornet'. Just as we've been working on all the things that seem to be the same as "Maggie."

Kim said that online misinformation lives forever; Of course so does it in older "classic" rose books. And even if 'Colonial White' had been adopted as the name, all those old texts would still be identifying this rose as the climbing Tea 'Sombreuil', some with excellent photos of it, and the majority of the people who actually grow the rose would still know it as 'Sombreuil', the name under which they bought it. I guess it would "fix" the problem for old-rose newbies, but not for the rest of us. We can't change that.

This post was edited by malcolm_manners on Sun, Aug 11, 13 at 22:44

Not toward an absolute identification, no, but in determining if those two examples ARE the identical rose it does. It's the same situation with Burbank and Santa Rosa. DNA won't tell you which is which, but it WILL tell you WHO has which rose and whether there really are two, distinct roses remaining. Or, if they're all the same rose demonstrating climatic and cultural differences.

I would also love to see if Dr. E. M. Mills really contains Spinosissima, Rugosa and Hugonis, or just two of the three. There are several other potential candidates for such testing. It really can make differences, such as Dr. Byrne's test eliminating Laevigata as a co parent of Silver Moon. Initially, it was reportedly a combination of Laevigata, Wichurana and a Tea. His results showed only Wichurana and Tea. I would enjoy finding out if Pearl Drift really contains anything from Mermaid, too. Kim

Very interesting post--

Florence

Not to be picky Kim, but for the sake of accurate history, it was Charles Walker who did the Silver Moon work at North Carolina State U., as part of his Ph.D. research. And yes, such studies can be quite useful even if no absolute ID is arrived at. Agreed.

Thanks for the correction, Malcolm. I heard it from David. Kim

In my garden Sombreuil was healthy, but New Dawn mildewed. That makes me hesitant to think that they are directly related without more evidence.

Rosefolly

Kim, Maybe David's lab repeated that work? That's possible. But Charles published his dissertation and a research paper with that work in it:

Walker, Jr., C. A. and D. J. Werner. 1997. Isozyme and randomly amplified polymorphic DNA (RAPD) analyses of Cherokee rose and its putative hybrids 'Silver Moon' and 'Anemone'. J. Amer. Soc. Hort. Sci. 122(5):659-664.

This was one of the earliest uses of RAPD-PCR DNA analysis for studying rose heritage that I'm aware of. And it was the paper that got us interested in doing DNA analysis work at FSC.

The evidence in favor of a match bet. the Sangerhausen 'Cornet,' and our "Grandmother's Hat" comes from Barbara Worl and Miriam Wilkins.

The two ladies were together, when Barbara spotted the rose labeled 'Cornet,' and said: "That's my rose!" (or something to that effect).

To be honest (and we grow more plants of "Grandmother's Hat" -- and from more varied sources -- than anyone has a right to) I see the closest resemblance between GramHat and "Ragged Robin" (leaving out bloom color).

True Story:

We obtained "Grandmother's Hat" in the 1990's, via Bob Edberg -- who ID'd it as 'Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford.' This was in our exhibiting days, and we won 1-2 Victorian Rose certificates with it. under that name.

Then, "everyone" said it must in fact be 'Cornet.' So, we showed it under that name, and won a couple of Dowager Queen certs as 'Cornet.'

Then, "everyone" said, no, probably NOT 'Cornet' (and Bob was still insisting it was 'Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford') but "they" were letting Found Roses be shown under study names, so we showed it as "Grandmother's Hat," and won a couple more Victorian awards.

THAT was pretty confusing, because you could walk through a rose show, and spot the same rose entered in multiple classes under different names. I was waiting for it to win both Dowager and Victorian at the same show . . .

By the time ARS made a class for Found Roses, we were almost done exhibiting, but we did enter that class with GramHat -- only to lose to a superb "Benny Lopez."

Jeri

Thanks, Malcolm, I've sorted it out. It was Walker who made the discovery about Silver Moon (of which I learned from David Byrne). It was David who discovered Basye's Purple is only rugosa with no foliolosa in it. Kim

For what it's worth, others have posted from zone 5 that haven't been able to grow this rose, but it's cane hardy for me in part shade in zone 5a, and I've had it for 6 years own root from Ashdown. Presuming of course, that this is the same Sombreuil/Colonial White that we've been discussing, but I'm sure Paul Z would be up on his classifications. There's no way this rose grows like a tea - given that I do grow some teas and have to baby them all the way. It's resolutely hardy for me in less than ideal locations, though it doesn't grow very big and does need some pruning out of winter kill most years. I'd be willing to bet it'd be root hardy in zone 4, given conditions that it likes (maybe dry conditions or consistent snow cover?).

I also grow New Dawn, that's just in its third year (so no direct comparison is possible), but I don't see Sombreuil becoming the house eater that ND is supposed to be in my zone. As several folks have said, it doesn't mean they're not related, but most of my New Dawn progeny climbers seem to want to tend toward the vigor of ND, if not quite a house eater.

Cynthia

Cynthia - Yay! So glad to hear that Sombreuil/Colonial White is cold hardy for you in zone 5! Perhaps someone will chime in from zone 4 ....?

Here in zone 9, we have decided to see how big/tall it will get - so far I have one cane up 23-25 feet on the house - will hope it puts out laterals we can use to go further up next year - that is an East facing side of our house, and the higher up it goes, the more sun it will get (there are a bunch of large trees shading the bottom half of that wall most of the time). Cl Iceberg and Buff Beauty are also on that wall further down - I am hoping for a race! Neat and tidy my garden never is, but it is abundant (neat and tidy folks would call that overgrown)!

Jackie

I would love to see Jackie! Neither my garden or my hair/clothing will ever be called neat and tidy.

Jeri I like your rose show story.

Do roses ever change slightly over the years so that one in Europe will be just different enough from one in America to confuse us all a few hundred years later?

I don't know, Kitty -- but I have heard it said that 'Gloire des Rosomanes' has more petals in Europe than it does in the U.S.

I guess that wouldn't be surprising. It would have been selected here for sheer vigor -- with no care to bloom quality -- and also grown in huge numbers.

In Europe, it would have been selected for bloom, and not in such immense quantity.

But I have only seen it in the U.S., so I don't know.

Jeri

Thank you, Nippstress, for that report on CW. I may decide to try it again. It is a lovely rose.

I've read this thread with great interest and amazement at the amount of knowledge many members posses.

Now, if somebody can help me, which is this rose listed by Peter Beales' in the UK as 'Sombreuil'? The description fits the old tea rose but Colonial White is also mentioned, while the flower pic points to the subject of this thread, I believe?

http://www.classicroses.co.uk/products/roses/sombreuil/

Nik, I would say the Beales' photo is of the Wichurana climber substituted for the "real Tea", Mlle. de Sombreuil. The wannabe has more densely packed petals with shorter, more pointed central petals, arranged in a very firm, flat, dense "powder puff" than the "Tea". Because of the extremely double nature, densely packed center of shorter petals, I would consider his image to be the imposter and not the "original". When you hold the two in your hands, the differences are striking. Images just don't do that difference the justice required to be able to easily distinguish between the two. There are also vast differences in foliage, wood, prickles with the imposter actually being less mildewy, but definitely still a mildew magnate in the right conditions. Its wood is also much less limber, stiffer, and not as easily bent to your will. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Mlle. de Sombreuil

Thanks Kim, this is what I thought myself, that it's Colonial White rather than the tea. Still, this being also a powdery mildew magnet dissapoints me a lot since I have this rose on order and PM is the main fungal pressure over here. I suppose I'll plant it somewhere out of the way in the plot border so I won't have to look at it closely every single day.. Would you say that it's as prone to mildew as bourbons like Madame Isaak Pereire and the like?

Nikthegreek - definitely not as prone to mildew as Madame Isaak Periere in my garden - I had an IP and had to pull it out (which I almost never do) after three years of it being covered in mildew AND all of its blooms balling.

I started this thread - you can see a picture of my Colonial White in the first post above. No mildew at all here - none. We live in a true Mediterranean climate - cool wet winters and long dry summers. By the way, my Colonial White has now reached the roof - actually my DH has been able to train it horizontally along just below the roof gutters - for about 10 feet sideways so far! So that means it has grown about 8 feet up from where it is planted, then 7 feet over to get to the house wall, then up another 2 stories to the roof, then 10 more feet sideways. Of course, we have been encouraging it, which you do not need to do. In our garden, there is so much shade that I always encourage climbers to get up to where they can get enough sun!

Jackie

Nik -- I'd say nowhere NEAR that mildew prone. Mme. Isaac Pereire mildewed constantly here, and rusted as well. Souv. de la Malmaison "only" mildewed -- but mildewed enough that blooms never opened.

The climber, 'Sombreuil' rarely has a touch of mildew here, and has NEVER rusted for me. And I have grown multiple plants of it since 1987.

I recommend it to anyone in our coastal area (with the only caveat that it has really vicious prickles).

Jeri
(Coastal Ventura County, SoCalif.)

Thanks it's a relief to know that it is not as bad as MIP and some other bourbons. I can tolerate some early spring and late fall mildew but not a mildew disaster. MIP has not been a total disaster for me up to now. It does midew badly but seems to recover given some affection and it's still a young rose. I've seen worse. Variegata di Bologna springs to mind.

Since we are on the PM subject here's my pet peeve. It seems most breeders, at least the European ones, are making conscious efforts to improve their rose disease resistance but it seems to me they are concentrating mostly on BS. That is understandable since they are mostly based in climates were BS pressure is high but does not cater for us PM and rust people. Nik

You know, it is virtually impossible to breed against diseases which don't occur where you do your breeding. Black spot isn't much of an issue where I live, so if a seedling demonstrates bad black spot with some maturity, I dump it. Mildew and rust are the bugaboos here, and I am ruthless when it comes to selecting seedlings which have those issues. You have to be very careful, though. It is extremely easy to FORCE otherwise clean roses to rust and mildew by keeping them too dry. I never believed it possible, but I can honestly force healthy roses to contract rust and mildew by not providing them sufficient water. I can also clean them up by increasing the water to the level the particular variety requires for its immune system to function properly. That's not to say every case of rust or mildew is due to insufficient water, but I think you will be quite surprised how many are. Before dumping a rose because of either of those diseases, I play with how much water it receives. If it cleans up with proper water, It's likely a keeper. Kim

I find this thread fascinating. It just so happens that I ordered Colonial White/Sombreuill from Greenmantle last spring. It should be coming to the Pacific North West Spring of 2014 along with Spice and Lancaster and York. This will be the year of the mystery roses.
Thank you all for sharing your extensive knowledge of this rose. I greatly appreciate it.

It has been absolutely fascinating reading this thread. Who knew Sombreuil could have such a mysterious history? In any case I agree that this rose is certainly a wichuraiana hybrid. The thorny canes and foliage look nothing like those on the Teas that I've grown in my mother's zone 7b garden. I don't think Sombreuil is a sport of New Dawn. Each is distinct from the other enough to rule out that theory. As for the name I supported keeping it Sombreuil but have since changed my opinion. The names are too similar and do cause confusion. Regardless of whatever name it is called this white climber is a wonderful rose: breathtakingly beautiful blooms possessed of a heavenly fragrance (that also make excellent vase flowers), vigorous as all get out, fully hardy in zone 6, disease resistant foliage (at least in my region), grows well on its own roots, and shade tolerant to boot. It's only real fault is the vicious thorns.

Image of Sombreuil by Suebelle at Hortiplex

I eventuallly planted my Sombreuil (grafted from Beales', still listed as an 1880 tea btw...) in late winter 2014 and just got my first blooms the other day! Huge beer mat sized absolutely gorgeous. I'm just commenting here to report that despite my fears this rose is not a mildew magnet for me. It is planted in the worst possible conditions in my garden and if it were very PM prone it would have shown it by now. No PM to speak about while at this same time many of my roses are inflicted by it. Planted against a wall, on inclined ground, in partial shade, close to an olive tree and shaded by a structure, receiving only a few hours of morning sun. I think of getting a second one and plant it in a more favorable spot where I can admire it without specifically seeking it. Where it is now, only I know that it exists. Huge mistake but I was worried it would prove mildewy for me. New Dawn, planted at the same time, not far away in similar conditions has become double the size btw. Still waiting for it to bloom. To my untrained eyes these 2 roses do not look very similar in traits.

Nik - so glad you have 'Sombreuil'/Colonial White. Here is the latest picture of mine - taken about 10 days ago. It evidently decided that it preferred a South wall instead of an East facing one - better light. So, it went over there. Still climbing, but it has reached the roof, so "no more worlds to conquer". Mine does not get PM or blackspot, or rust or anything else. And, despite being so very double, I have never seen a bloom ball or even attempt to ball.

Jackie

Nik - I forgot to mention - the location of yours sounds as if it is surrounded by things it could climb on. I believe we are in similar climates - ours is zone 9, hot dry summers, cool wet (that is normally, when we are not having a record breaking drought) winters. As you can see, it is not shy about climbing if you let it!

Jackie

Jackie I always marvel at your roses. Yes I hope it will climb. I'm helping it climb that concrete wall and spread on the iron fencing on top of it. Top to bottom this whole thing is about 15 feet. The problem is that lower down it is mostly shade so I hope it overcomes this and gets to the more sunny area further up. Once it manages to do that it will mostly be a spectacle for my backyard neighbours to enjoy rather than me, I'm afraid.

What a fascinating thread. Thanks Jackie for starting it.
Dr. Manners by any chance did you find a student to do the DNA test?

Wow! This rose LASTS in the vase. I cut it when it was already fully open and it has been 4 days in the vase and looks and smells exactly the same. I suspect it's one of those blooms that get 'mummyfied' eventually without loosing their original shape and looks. About a constant 68F in the house these past few days.

Nik - it lasts on the bush a long time also. Then all of a sudden, it drops all of its petals, self-cleaning very nicely. Mine, as you might imagine, does that for weeks, and produces inches of potpourri all over my patio - love it.

Jackie

I purchased a Sombreuil rose band last year from Burlington, I am in zone 6a (but this past 2 winters were more like zone 5), it's alive after 6 months of winter! Love Jackie's photo, hope my Sombreuil can grow up to 12'. I think Jackie's is more than 30'.