I have climbing Sombreuil from J&P (own root) so it's probably Colonial White. I love it. It's up to about 15 ft canes. It's a bit wild right now I have to tie it down.

The blooms are lovely and it has a great fragrance. It does get BS, but not horribly so. I didn't get that much repeat last year, but that was probably because of the drought and I have it in a bad spot to be able to water it.

I love mine. In its 1st year it grew 10 ft and bloomed, no dieback in my 6a winter. Looking forward to it getting bigger and better.

Fully opened.
{{gwi:237084}}

Cluster, with bud and partially opened
{{gwi:237085}}

Eric

The rose history buffs on the Antique Rose forum can fill you in better, but as I remember reading (and which may not be correct, so take it with a chunk, not a grain, of salt)...

The 'Colonial White' story was something like...a guy back in the 50's started selling this rose as 'Colonial White' and decades later, people started to believe he'd hybridized it (or he claimed he had), and it should be called 'Colonial White' and not Sombreuil-of-Commerce. But it turned out he hadn't hybridized it, it had been around before, he'd just renamed it and started selling it that way. So where this rose came from is still kind of a mystery...people have gone back to calling it Sombreuil-of-Commerce in the meantime, even though people agree it is not the original 'Sombreuil', which is now commonly sold as 'Mme de Sombreuil' to differentiate it from this rose, Sombreuil (of commerce).

It's a fine climber, if a bit thorny. Repeat improves a lot as the plant establishes--at least mine did.

The rose you want that we refer to as Sombreuil is indeed sold as Colonial White. Many believe the "real" Sombreuil is LaBiche. LaBiche is a shell color which is lovely but I think you want "Colonial White" which was mistakenly sold as Sombreuil but now that some of the afficiandos have discovered that CW and Sombreuil are one in the same, it is being sold under either but I think LaBiche is still sold by that name. If you want a pretty healthy smelly good noisette, get laBiche as wlel.

Here is the skinny:

Thanks!

Foghorn

Here is a link that might be useful: The skinny

The rose sold as 'La Biche' is the actual 1850-1851 Tea Rose, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil'

The rose which has been sold both as 'Sombreuil' (Cl. Tea) AND as "Colonial White"
is a Wichuriana-hybrid Climbing rose, first known in the mid-20th Century, and of unknown origin.

The name Colonial White was invented in the 1950's with fraudulent parentage, by Melvin Wyant (Mentor, OH.
Waynt claimed to have hybridized it.
(Wyant had a track record of doing this sort of thing.)

The first verifiable description of the climber dates to 1942.

ARS has now recognized that the climber is a modern LCl, and so classed it.
But they used the name Sombreuil, which has only prolonged the confusion

--SIGH--

Jeri

Isn't it nice to have Jeri on our forum. Thank you Jeri!

It would be nice to know which rose ARE has, bit it looks like Sombreuil to moi. You might want to confirm it with them and let us know. This is a great rose by the way. We have it growing up to the top of the pergola on our deck. It is a stinky for sure. Photos anyone?

F.L.

I purchased my Sombrueil from ARE year before last and I believe if you order Colonial White you'll get the exact same rose I did-- yep, the one everyone persists in called Sombrueil. I think recently ARE decided to start calling the rose by its modern name and they simply updated their website and catalog. You could call & ask them to verify! Boy there are a lot of books out there that list this among the teas.

Well, but there IS a Tea! It's just not a Climber.

The real'Mlle de Sombreuil' (which is what the climber was sold as) was int.in 1850-51.
It was in commerce in CA in the late 19th Century,
And was found growing in Santa Rosa, CA.
It also grows still, in France.
You'll find an excellent contemporary illustration of it in "THE OLD ROSE ADVISOR."
It looks exactly like that.
See:
{{gwi:232037}}

It was mis-identified as 'La Biche' (and sold under that name) but it never ceased to exist.
Ashdown, I believe, lists it correctly.
So does Vintage.
ARE still hasn't got it right.

The true 'La Biche' is not in commerce, and may be extinct.

Iowa Jade: The climber you have is now called 'Sombreuil.'
It is now correctly classed as a Large-Flowered Climber.
(It's likely a close kin to New Dawn, and it is a modern rose.)
But it's a very very nice modern climber, and you're right -- great fragrance.

Jeri

So ARE says this rose was introduced in 1850?..and is a "mannerly" climber...I sure hope so because the trellis I have I want to "esplanier" is along...should I refer to it as "Sombreuil" or "Colonial White"..I like the open faced look of it on ARE's website for I have two..."Devonesis" and "Mme. Alfred Carriere" which are multi-petaled and wanted a more "Tea-like" bloom...Thanks everyone..Jeanne

OK. Let's try this again.
THE CLIMBER WAS NOT INTRODUCED IN 1850.

The Climber you are growing is a 20th-Century Wichurana Hybrid of UNKNOWN ORIGIN.

There is no record of it having been "introduced."
Think of it as a Found Rose.
Its origin is un-documented, other than a catalog description dated 1942.

It is a modest climber.
Canes can reach to 12 ft in SoCal.
Canes have some rigidity.
It is VERY well armed with prickles.
It is a MODERN, 20TH-Century, Large-Flowered Climber.

The rose int. 1850 is a completely different rose. A BUSH.

Jeri

jeanne, I don't find mine very mannerly. Each time I pass it, I hear my mothers voice say 'that thing is going to put somebodies eye out'.

Jeanne, I have 6 Sombreuil climbers. I love this rose. In my climate it is virtually always in bloom and healthy. A super-star in my garden.

And compared with the rampant growing Mme. Alfred Carriere (of which I have 3) I'd certainly call Sombreuil more "mannerly" (but thornier) climber.

Jeri has the info correct. In fact, she has been a major player in researching and clearing up the Sombreuil, Colonial White, Mlle de Sombreuil, LaBiche confusions. Much thanks are due to her for her efforts.

Alas, some vendors are way too slow in changing their online catalogues. And almost all rose books of the past list Sombreuil (the modern Wichurania climber) as a Tea (1850-51). When this (1850-51) date relates to the Tea rose Mlle de Sombreuil. So a certain understandable "confusion" exists, even when the evidence for proper identities is fairly conclusive.

My Mlle de Sombreuil is still small, but she too is a rose of great appeal.

To really confuse matters I'm planning on planting Mlle de Sombreuil next to a Sombreuil, and then let them fight out their identities ;-)

Bill

It has stiff canes but it can be pruned judiciously. I have 2 and grow one as a bush and one as a mannerly climber. Actually, my DH keeps it pruned as a mannerly climber because he hates the thorns on its canes and it's near the gate he accesses for watering and cleaning fountain. :)

I would call it whichever I wanted. I think most gardeners who really are into roses will know and those who do not, will not care. It's your call. You could name it Colonial White/Mlle Sombreuil.

Bill, I love that, let them fight it out. Poor rose is gonna have an identity crisis if people keep changing its name.
BTW I have two which I think are the ones now known as Colonial White and love them. They do take a little time to get a grip and have a decent repeat but its well worth the wait.
Hamp

I like the name Sombreuil better, so I'm keeping that.

I adore this rose. The fragrance is one of my favorites but mannerly, it is not. The canes are very stiff and it is exceedingly thorny. It doesn't look that thorny, so I often forget and reach into the bush and get ripped. The canes can be trained if you place them when they are very young, other than that, you'll have to prune them judiciously as Pat states.

Carol

Bet, the name is "correctly" Sombreuil. There was a big controversy about it wasn't really Sombreuil so the nurseries started calling it Colonial White at the request of many of the people who were trying to sort the name out and then the ARS decided to keep the name Sombreuil and change it's classification to the LCL instead of a climbing Tea. That is where all the confusion comes in. The nurseries were trying to be responsible and correctly identify/name the rose and the situation just got more and more complicated.

Thanks for all the wonderful feedback..I have recommended this rose to several people ONLY because of the rave reviews I've read on this forum from yall...and when I saw it growing in a friends garden..I JUST HAD TO HAVE HER...so when I created my new beds last year...I had a place for ONE more climber and knew immediately that it must be Sombreuil..which is what I shall call her..thanks for the heads up on the rigid canes as early guiding is important..something I am anal about for my desired look!!...Hugzzzzzz to all...Jeanne

I let mine go for 2 years and now I have to get it under control. I'm thinking of wearing a suit of armor!

I have it next to Don Juan and I am hoping for a nice blending of the rich velvety blooms of DJ and the white creamy blooms of Sombreuil. I love red/white.

Carol is so right on. This rose looks so harmless, I don't need my gloves.

In short order I am like in the film: "Dungeon Frolics" with me warbling: "Hep me" Hep me."

Foghorn

I have 2 "Colonial White/Sombreuil" (purchased from A.R.E. several years ago). I love this rose, but need guidance in pruning. Patricia, exactly how do you do your judicious pruning? I want to grow mine as tall,free standing shrubs.
thanks,
molly

Thanks, Jeri for your response. I think I will dismiss the idea of a shrub form on this rose.
molly

The up shot of the new classification is that it can't be exhibited as an Old Garden Rose.

No. It cannot be exhibited as an Old Garden Rose.

Of course, that makes excellent sense, as it is NOT an Old Garden Rose! :-)

I might add that I personally probably have some sort of record for Dowager Queen awards won with this very rose.

But if Rose Shows are "educational," they really must be correct.

Jeri

Jardineratx, Jon of Wessex posted on how to make those big climbers into bushes and I took his advice on this one. This year my DH cut it back to 18 inches. I will post a picture when it blooms (ugh, if it lives).

OK, Patricia, I will wait on your results...no need for two of us to take a chance, right? Thanks.
molly

Hi, complete amateur here who has done lots of research.
I live in nyc (zone 6 as far as I can tell online) and am preparing a rooftop garden. I wanted to use a climbing rose vine... and after much looking found the Mme Alfred Carriere - which I love but I think will not survive my ny winters which get below freezing, right?
Then I stumbled upon this beautiful Sombreuil... how do you think it'll do in a ny winter? and what care would it need? Also, is there any way to buy this plant a bit more mature than a bareroot plant which as far as I can tell looks very much like a cluster of vines/sticks without leaves or flowers.
Thanks for your help.

Do I get it if I say that La Biche and Mlle Sombreuil are the same? How big that bush is when it is mature? I will get La Biche from Chamblee's probably by next Saturday and I would appreciate some info on its size in the southeast of US, zone 7b or 8.
I do have Colonial White aka Cl. Sombreuil, in too much shade, I am afraid, but was so intrigued by the story that I want to see the 'original'. Is she/it a mannerly bush or it is a monster tea?

Do I get it if I say that La Biche and Mlle Sombreuil are the same?

*** NO!
You'd be more correct to say that the rose which has been sold as 'La Biche' is actually 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'

The true 'La Biche' may still exist, you see.
It just is not in commerce.
Anything sold as 'La Biche' in modern times is a mis-labelled 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'

And, 'Mlle de Sombreuil' is quite simply a typical Tea Rose.
I can't yet tell you how large she will be in maturity, as mine is only a couple of years old.

Jeri

So what is La Biche? I grow La Biche and it is a very soft white-pink color, looks noisettish to me, but not sure, could be tea noisettish. A much prettier rose IMHO than Sombreuil but then that's just me. I love La Biche who is not la biche.

You'd be more correct to say that the rose which has been sold as 'La Biche' is actually 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'

God enough for me!

Patricia, did you save the instruction of Jon of Wessex how to prune a climber as a shrub? Time to time rosarians refer to this post but it was probably posted before I discovered the GW rose forum. I loved to read it. I have a few candidates that are climbers but I try to grow it/them as a shrub(s).

I would appreciate it if someone would post it again or send it to me by email.

Just to add an update...I did get her and planted her almost 3 weeks ago and she already is a blooming fool!@!...Jeanne

I'm doing the happy dance here after finding out that Sombreuil/Colonial White is a good rose. I just planted it this week. Yay!

---
Wendy

not a farmer, the climbing Sombreuil is supposed to be hardy to zone 6B. I would guess that you are in 6 if not 7 with the changing zones. Alot may depend on what location you have the rose in and what kind of winter protection you can give it.

It's hard to find mature rose plants for sale. You may get a 3 or 5 gallon, but not climbers. And it is best to get them as bare root or young potted plants. They are much easier to plant that way. Believe me, they take off pretty quickly.

I got my own root climbing Sombreuil from Jackson Perkins and it grew quite well and bloomed the first year. This year it's twice as big and I'm expecting a big spring flush.

So what is La Biche?

*** The rose you bought, labelled 'La Biche,' is the 1850 Tea Rose, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'

A much prettier rose IMHO than Sombreuil

*** Well, :-) Let's just say both are pretty, in different ways.
'When this came up, in a talk we gave not long ago, someone said definantly: "Well EYE am still going to grow my Sombreuil'"
My reply was: "And so am I!"
(But isn't it nice to know what you REALLY have?)

I love La Biche who is not la biche.

*** I do, too, and I am even happier to know that she has her true identity back!
For more information, go to the web site of the Gold Coast Heritage Roses Groups (see link below).
Under Articles, click on "The Sombreuil Saga."

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: Gold Coast HRG Articles

Sombreuil just never performed well for me. The fragrance was not strong to me and it was a poor bloomer for 3 years and finally met the shovel this year. I replaced it with a Pope John Paul II which I keep reading is a great rose.