I have them both...Penelope is a spreader, while Cornelia is more upright.

My experience is the opposite of Melva's: 'Cornelia' is wide and lax, while 'Penelope' is a little stiffer and shrubbier. If she likes her growing conditions 'Cornelia' makes a great small climber. Favorable conditions mean sun as you describe it and cool soil (organic mulch or little groundcover plants) and lots of it.

So you got Hybrid Musks this spring, did you? Have you considered 'Vanity'? 'Francesca'? 'Pax', 'Kathleen', 'Moonlight', 'Thisbe', 'Nur Mahal'? Can you tell I like Hybrid Musks?

Melissa

For me, Cornelia grows into a lax fountain shape, while Penelope grows wide and stiff. They both have a terrific spring bloom, but Cornelia repeats very little afterwards. I have found both Buff Beauty and Penelope difficult to enjoy because they do not have enough room to grow naturally and my pruning skills are less than desirable, leaving me with oddly shaped rose bushes. I'm glad Melissa mentioned Nur Mahal--she is my absolute favorite hybrid musk and getting to be my favorite rose overall. Mine is completely healthy, blooms repeatedly and has a wonderful fragrance and she is THORNLESS!

Penelope is a huge rose. I have about 5 of them, and one that I measured was 10 feet long and wide, and about 6 feet high. Recently I cut them down, and the new growth is fine, but some of the canes are as large as my wrist. Until I can shape the smaller rose, it will look funny. It is almost always in bloom, and a beautiful rose. I don't spray them at all, and have not sprayed them for a few years.

Sammy

In my garden 'Cornelia', like all the Hybrid Musks, reblooms very well in fall, and is exquisitely lovely then. I'm surprised jardineratx doesn't a good fall flowering. Summers here are hot and dry and I don't water; I don't know how much summer bloom I'd get with cooler and wetter weather, plus the deadheading after the spring flowering that I don't usually get around to.

Melissa

I am sorry I have Ballerina not Penelope...excuse my crazy post. c

Ooh, I would like to see photos of Sammy's five Penelopes. They must be spectacular to behold.

'Cornelia' has been very highly rated in past ARS surveys (based on results I seen in the Buyers Guide) and I am inclined to agree.

Like others in this group not likely to be super hardy, there was some die back on it after this past winter - because it got down to maybe the vicinity of 10 degrees F. on the site where I am currently growing it.

If you don't have room for Penelope to fountain, cut the arching canes back by about half, pruning to an upward-facing bud (Jon's tip). Then shorten any longish laterals. Do this in spring and again as needed in summer. This yields a self-supporting dense plant that is shaped sort of like an aircraft carrier, but a bit smaller.

I don't grow it but I've observed it for years and pruned it one year. It's a wonderful rose with good repeat and delicious sweet fragrance.

One of the spots I am thinking about for penelope is between two nikko blue hydrangea bushes. Each bush is 5 feet tall and 6 feet wide. There is probably 10 feet of space in the middle. Toward the front, I have purple coneflowers and 1 foxglove. I am thinking about putting penelope behind the coneflowers. I think it should have enough room to spread out if it wants to. Will this look nice or odd? I think when nikko blue is in full bloom, penelope will be in sporadic summer reblooming. All of these are on the east side of some 15 feet tall beech tree, so they get morning sun.

For cornelia I am thinking about letting it climb a 6 foot wooden fence. Is it difficult to train it going horizontally over a fence?

^ No, Cornelia has flexible canes.

My Cornelia is both tall AND spreading. Give it plenty of space. It does not like to be fried in full sun.

If I had to tell a shape, I's say like a fountain.
About 2m x 2m (= about 6.5 feet x 6.5).

Good rose, you'll love it.

I forgot: here you can get an idea of the shape (the black cover is ugly, I know, but will soon be covered by some creeping rose):

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scardan123, your cornelia is beautiful. How old is your bush? I bought a 1 gallon plant so it is pretty tiny right now.

This is a picture of my Penelope. It was a year ago, and you really cannot tell how huge the lower canes are. I am having a little problem with the new canes. They are quite large, but have nothing to support them, so when it is very windy, they tend to break. (We do have strong winds in this part of the country.)

I would never put this rose between Nikko Blue hydrangeas. I think it likes the sun. Also, I am not sure how easy it is to "mold" Penelope. Its width is more than 10 feet sometimes, but it could be that from the center of the rose, it would grow 3 feet in one direction and 7 in the other. It could mess with your hydrangeas, and the hydrangeas not only need shade, but they could shade Penelope. It gets very hot here, and my hydrangeas have shriveled up. Penelope loves the heat.

I don't conisder Penelope a shade lover at all. But I could be mistaken.

I do love this rose.

Sammy

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sammy, I was going to put penelope slightly behind the hydrangea shrubs. I don't think either the shrub or the rose will be shaded by each other too much there. I don't imagine that the nikko blues will get much wider. They are already 6 feet across. Where do you grow your penelope? Is it just a stand alone plant in full sun?

Hi Ikea_gw, my cornelia is 2 and a half years old. Came as a tiny thing in a pot.

My Penelopes are in the sun. Two of them are part of a border that goes down to a stream, and the other three are part of a bed that has 2 Maggies, 3 Basye's Blueberries, and some Crape Myrtles. (I keep the Crape Myrtles short, and take out the lower branches so they will not shad the roses.)

I have 3 Nikko blue hydranges across from the Penelopes, but there is a tree between them. I have more Nikko Blue hydrangeas on another side of the yard. I like the hydrangeas when they perform well, but mine have looked bad for a few years, and I think I will replace them with the more modern ones, or another shrub that can take more sun.

Our temperatures have been near or over 100 for weeks now, and it is just frying the hydranges even in the shade.

Sammy

Sammy, I am on the edge of zone 6 and 7, so our summer is much cooler than yours. Right now we have highs in the mid 80s but where the hydrangeas are it probably never gets above 80 because of the shade it gets after noon. I actually have a few endless summer hydrangea as well and they wilt much more than nikko blue. The one hydrangea that is always prefect looking for me is a blue lacecap, which is now my favorite hydrangea in the yard. My understanding is a lot of the newer hybrids of hydrangeas are bred with the goal of them bloom from new wood and thus handle the colder zones better. I wonder if that kind of breeding makes them less happy in the hotter zones in the summer.

I noticed that when I had my potted penelope in the sun around noon, there is a bit of wilting at the tip of the shoots and the flowers don't last very long. Your penelope are not wilting in full sun?

My Penelopes are not wilting much at all, but I spray them with water everyday. I hose them off, but do not soak the roots everyday.

I am about ready to move away from my lacecap hydrangeas. In about 6 years I have seen about 8 blooms. They are lovely when they bloom, but I want a lot of bloom. I don't prune them, but our zone's habit of having a late frost is probably bad for them.

Sammy