First of all, there is no difference between climbing and non-climbing Austins. There are Austins that can be used as climbers because of their growth habit, but the very same roses are bush roses, which may have to be trimmed more, especially in the U.S. areas with hot summers, because of their tendency to grow much larger than in Olde England.

Almost any rose in a warm-summer climate would prefer morning sun and afternoon shade. I fried a beautiful Reve d'Or by putting it against a house wall where it received some afternoon sun. You might try removing the middle one and see how the other one does. If it suffers too much in the sun for a good part of the year I would move that one too.

By the way, I hope that's an extremely miniature citrus tree. It's going to grow rapidly out of its spot if not, and even for a small one there seems to be very little room for it to grow unless you're planning to espalier it.

Your roses look very healthy and happy and I hope you can find a good solution to your situation. This might be a nice little bed for some of the small Austins like Pretty Jessica, along with some companion plants like lavender, reblooming irises and pelargoniums, which would give quite a bit of color and interest throughout the year.

Ingrid

Hi RR: Agree with Ingrid, your roses are super-healthy ... looking good! I love the lemon/lime/kumquat bush next to Evelyn.

I have both Evelyn and CPM as own-roots. My Evelyn is 3' x 3' the second year (I chopped it really short after a flush). CPM is twice wider, she needs at least 6 feet of crawling space. CPM blooms better when crawls horizontally .. same with my tomatoes ... sap and nutrients don't have to fight gravity when it's horizontal, rather than being forced upward.

CPM can take partial shade, the petals are softer with shorter vase life. CPM has better color in partial shade, more deep orange. Evelyn did well in my full sun at 100 degrees last year. See below pic. of Evelyn at such temp.

Thanks so much, Ingrid and Strawberryhill!! Great advice as always from this forum and I love the picture of Evelyn!!

I guess this means I'll be moving roses during our mild California winter... Maybe I'll move CPM to a part shade spot and leave Evelyn. Do you think it's worth it to dig Evelyn up just to move her two feet over so she's in the middle of that space, or is that too much trauma for the rose? Or maybe just move both of them and replace with something low?!

p.s. yes, it's a dwarf Meyer lemon :)

Hi RR: I love your dwarf Meyer Lemon .. .I'm thinking about lemon pie, YUM!

I don't know if yours are grafted or own-roots. My own-root Evelyn throws 3 feet octopus canes, if I don't prune down to 1.5 feet after a flush. Grafted would be bigger.

Evelyn is thorny, her arms may reach out to poke near the water-faucet. I find CPM more thorny than Evelyn, at least Evelyn's thorns are less on the upper canes. Evelyn blooms best in full-sun.

Your roses look small enough to move. When I move my roses, I move THE ENTIRE rootball, and as much soil as possible. If I water the rose right before moving, then the soil crumbles and roots get damaged.

I find the best result with watering at least 24 hours in advance ... that way the root ball stays intact. I use the lid of a garbage can to contain the root-ball, then drag that across the lawn. I moved many roses, the most recent one Deep Purple, which I found soluble gypsum (calcium sulfate) stimulates root growth for fast recovery. Granular gypsum was useless, gunk up on top.

There's the myth of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to stimulate basal break,. The soil booklet stated that most soil have plenty of magnesium (except for very sandy soil), and 1/3 soils tested are deficient in potassium (necessary for root growth). My heavy clay is tested exceedingly high in magnesium, low in phosphorus and potassium.

Deep Purple sat there for 2 months doing nothing (lost most of its leaves after the move) .... until I gave it soluble calcium via gypsum, potassium, and soluble high phosphorus with trace elements. The result was immediate: all leaf-out with 4 buds, amazing!

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jul 30, 13 at 22:23

I'm not sure what approach you want to take, but in our coastal part of Ventura County, 'Evelyn' wanted to be 12-ft tall.

The lower part of the plant was a good 6-ft. wide.

We tried cutting her down to a lower level, but she just quit blooming and put all of her energy into regaining her 12-ft. stature. Then, she produced blooms up there -- 7-feet above the top of my head. Had I a ladder, I could have climbed up and enjoyed them.

If I had it to do over, 'Evelyn' is a rose I would plant next to a low fence. I would stretch her canes out along the fence, horizontally, and enjoy blooms on laterals. Lovely blooms -- with a fragrance that put me in mind of sun-warmed fresh peaches.

ALAS! I have no place in my garden to do that, so 'Evelyn' won't be making a repeat-performance here.

Jeri

Rabbit, "Dwarf" Meyer lemon trees planted in the ground can eventually be as tall as 6 - 12' tall and at least as wide -- quite a few at the upper half of that size range here in Livermore. They are "dwarf" only relative to standard lemon trees that can grow much taller -- like 20' or so. The trees can be pruned quite a bit to keep them shorter and/or more compact (I do so with my Eureka lemon, a larger tree, trying to keep it to about 10-11' all around) but, like roses, you can only make them so small and no smaller without impacting the quality of the plant. So, you might want to think about and research how growth might be directed (e.g. espalier if it needs to not extend out onto the decking too much), how it fits in, etc. early on rather than later.

It's probably not your fault--the beds were likely that size when you bought the house--but that planting bed is far too narrow for anything but very small plants, such dwarf lavenders, or very small Austins like 'The Wife Of Bath', 'Fair Bianca', or 'English Garden'. 'CPM' and 'Evelyn' will fully engulf that path and beyond.

I am glad Cats said something about the Meyer. I love mine and actually planted 2, one is a dwarf and the other standard.

A lot depends on your rootstock as far as just how dwarfing it will be. Personally, I would move the lemon too. That being said, I planted a row of citrus on 8 foot centers, all standards, so they can be a hedge some time in the future. My bosses dwarf Meyer is only about 4 feet tall, but about 8 feet wide.

I wonder if I can find a genetic dwarf Eureka Lemon tree -- and/or a genetic dwarf Mexican Bar Lime . . .

Jeri

I know a rose that would be perfect for that bed . . . 'International Herald Tribune.' In SoCal, it is totally disease-free, very small, but upright, and almost continuous-blooming. It dislikes pruning, so it is pretty much care free.

The dwarf Noisette, "Roseville Noisette" would also be great there, but it's not commercially available, more's the pity.

Jeri

Thank you all so much for the wonderful advice! I guess I'll be moving some plants then. Now the problem is, where to?

I have a very small garden and not much vertical space for climbers. I do have a new trellis and raised bed, but I've already filled them with 2 roses - Westerland and Zephirine Drouhin! The trellis is 13 ft wide and 8 ft high and I've tied the rose canes horizontally (3rd plant on the left is the clematis Roguchi)

I just planted Zeffy and Westerland a month ago when the trellis was built. Zeffy was an impulse buy when I stopped off at Roses of Yesterday, a nursery in the Santa Cruz mountains. It was only when I got home that I looked her up and discovered she's supposed to be a mildew magnet in CA. Sure enough, though clean at the (no spray) nursery, she's started to develop PM here, though I've kept it in check by washing and rubbing the mildew off, then spraying neem.

Now I'm wondering whether I should remove Zeffy and replace with Crown Princess Margareta? The trellis has morning sun and afternoon shade, which sounds good for CPM. I thought I might be able to find another place for Zeffy since she's thornless.

Jeri,

I grew a Thornless Mexican Lime (Key Lime) which struggled. All the other citrus grew reasonably well. I have read that Eustis, a limequat, tastes just like Key lime, if picked slightly early, and is more cold hardy and better in a pot. If I replace the TML, it will be with the Eustis. It might be worth researching. (But don't let me influence you :) ) I have found Four Winds Nursery a good source for citrus. They carry all three, Mexican Lime, Thornless Mexican Lime and Eustis. Take your pick. Hope this helps.

Cath

Just my personal opinion but, except for its fragrance, in a warm climate Zepherine Drouhin gets huge with not much rebloom, and therefore to me would not be worth keeping. There are many other roses that bloom much more, and have more beautiful blooms than ZD (forgive me, dear Florence, I know you love this rose), that are also fragrant. If you're already having problems with disease with this rose, I wouldn't give it any room in your small garden.

If you want to keep the Meyer lemon where it is you could try growing it horizontally along the wall, as an espalier, see how large it will get that way, and then fill in with smaller plants as hoovb suggested if there is room left over.

Ingrid

What a wonderful trellis that is, rabbit. You are so lucky to have it. I can't offer much advice because Evelyn is the only rose I grow (several of them, in fact) that you have. She grows very wide for me and fairly tall with stiff brittle canes. It would be difficult, I think to grow her well in the space you have pictured--but I could be very wrong. Good luck sorting this all out. You've done a lovely job with the climbers on the trellis, but I have to agree with Ingrid about Zepherine. She doesn't seem to bloom much in this climate.I have two friends who grow her, and I've never seen her in bloom! Diane

Ok, I guess ZD has to go then! Best to remove now (since she's only been 1 month in the ground from a pot) or give her some time and wait until our mild winter?

Also, what to replace her with? Ideally I want a rose that's robust, disease free and blooms like crazy. With a good scent. I've combed through the archives but it feels like what works for some in different parts of the country might not work for me here in N. California.

I already have CPM which I suspect will look really pretty next to Westerland, but I don't know whether CPM is a good rebloomer or large enough to fill that 8 ft trellis. I stopped by Regan's Roses the other day and was so impressed by their climbing Eden. It's gorgeous, but has very little scent... but...I already have a pot ghetto of climbers!

Here's what I have on hand:

-A Shropshire Lad
-CPM
-Evelyn

Do you think any of them would be worth planting on that trellis? It would have to be the showpiece of my small backyard.

Btw, my little Meyer lemon tree seems to be a bit of a runt, I'm afraid. I've had it for 3 years and it's barely grown at all. Looks healthy and produces lots of lemons though.

Personally, I don't think Evelyn would make a good climber with her stiff, brittle canes. She wants to go out not up. Right now, I am training a Colette on an arbor, and I think this rose is more of a natural climber with soft bendable canes. She's a fast grower, too, with blooms in a similar color to Evelyn's, though they are a lot smaller. Here's to a growing pot ghetto (sorry). This pic is a Colette bloom in July. Diane

Rabbit, maybe you have lucked out on the Meyer lemon. I had one like the one Kippy's boss has, some years ago -- never taller than 3' or so, but 6' in width. Like yours, it seemed healthy enough; maybe something to do with which dwarfing rootstock was used. My mother's dwarf Meyers, about 5 years old, is about 5-6' tall, not pruned except for a bit of shaping.

I took about 3' - 4' off my Eureka today, though (again).

I wouldn't do anything until december or january. Then the plants will easily move. If you move them now, the heat is going to come on soon and make it tough for them. At least you can get a few blossoms between now and january if the plants aren't stressed.

I say this because sometimes its hard to get DA roses to settle in and grow after moving them. Winter seems to be the best time for me and then they have a nice spring flush which is the best they will look all year. By the time next summer comes, they will have a good root system under them.

I had a zepherine here trained in a narrow space next to a walkway. Maybe its a good choice for your path. It was beautiful but was basically a spring bloomer here with a few flowers in fall. The leaves were always healthy and made a lovely covering for the plain wall and of course there were no thorns.

Wow! Jeri, Diane, and Strawberryhill, I love those pictures of IHT, Colette and CPM! They are so beautiful that I want them all (is there a term for rose acquisition fever?).

Strawberryhill - really great tips about forcing Austins to rebloom. I'll have to try them - is it too late in the season to do so now? Also, do you think burying banana peels near the base of the rose will help?

BIG thank you to everyone for the tips about dwarf Meyer lemons. I love how knowledgeable everyone here is and do think you're right - my little runt will probably get wider (if not taller) so one way or another I should shift those roses in the planting bed. But somehow the combo of roses, citrus, and lavender is really appealing!

Thank you, Rabbit. I know you will get this figured out. I just wanted to mention that I think Strawberry Hill's pic of Evelyn is about the most gorgeous I've ever seen. It should go in the Austin catalog. Diane

I planted CPM as a grafted plant about 5 years ago on a slope. She's so large she has claimed her share of the hillside and has dwarfed her smaller rose neighbors and wants to crawl out into the street. Her height can easily get 6-7' tall, with arms that wide. I have her growing through a trellis, along with clematis. One thing that I like a lot about 'CPM' is that her blossoms dry up and fall off between flushes if I don't get there quick enough to dead head. She's definitely a girl that wants her space.

Yes, you could espallier the lemon quite well. That would be a good solution since you are short on space.

I agree with Ingrid, just get rid of Zepphie. She'll never do well--it's just not her climate.

Jeri's idea of 'International Herald Tribune' is a great idea for that tiny space. Lots and lots of beautiful color.

Citrus needs to be grown on true dwarfing rootstock ('Four Dragons' is the usual type) to be truly dwarf. Even then a Navel Orange will still get 10', which however is only a third the size of the natural version.

The other thing is, you may not have the 'Meyer' lemon all that long. Very sadly, the Citrus Greening Disease is coming to California, and all citrus is doomed until resistant or immune types are developed. GMO techniques will be required to save Citrus.

Here is a link that might be useful: citrus greening disease

Yes. HoovB is correct.

Southern California has the Asian Citrus Psyllid. I am in Ventura County, which is now quarantined.

Our ag people have not, thus far, found any incidence of huanglongbing disease, but it is probably inevitable. Major growers have been asked to spray their trees, and for the most part have done so. That's a HUGE deal here, where most crops are NOT sprayed.

We have had traps in our garden. They didn't find anything. But it is true that our citrus industry (not to mention backyard citrus) is running scared.

That said, I would still plant a dwarf citrus here, hoping that it will take a long time to impact us.

Jeri

Hi Rabbit: I read in previous post that you are a writer, made $$$ on a novel, I would like to know what's the name of your novel so I can check out. I like to read in my zone 5a winter. I appreciate the kosher-chicken-mushroom recipe you gave to me here ... except my husband gives me dirty looks when I put salt, and my kid gives me dirty look when I put mushroom ... so I haven't made it.

Per your question of banana peels buried under bush ... that's great too. I chop up banana peels NPK 0-3-42 with a scissor and soak in molasses & a bit of vinegar for my tap water at pH 8 to extract banana's soluble phosphorus.

Per your question of when to stimulate blooms? Right after it's done flowering, then I give it nutrients for the next flush. Right after moving a rose, I also give it soluble-nutrients to encourage root-growth. Alameda (Judith) in Texas wrote on how she forced stingy Graham Thomas to bloom:

"When I was at Chamblee's last September, I asked what in the world I could do to the thing to make it bloom. They suggested Carl Pool BR 61. I doused it with that.......lo and behold, a few fall blooms! I did it again in spring and the bush actually bloomed well! I also used the combination of Spray N Gro/Bill's Perfect Fertilizer on it. After the bloom cycle, I cut it back - when I pruned in spring, I didn't allow those long tendrils."

Rabbit: Carl Pool BR 61 has NPK of 9-58-8, plus trace elements. The high phosphorus is from monopotassium phosphate, which I tested using 0-58-34 bought from Kelp4Less, tons of blooms on Sonia Rykiel and recently transplanted Golden Cel.

A cheaper source at $6 is MiracleGro Soluble Bloom Booster, NPK 10-52-10, with all trace elements. I tested that on Stephen Big Purple bought as tiny band this April. The result? 3 buds 1st flush, 7 buds 2nd flush, pinch that off, a week later, more buds were formed.

Those zillion-petals also demand calcium, best in soluble gypsum, plus extra potassium. Soluble gypsum I bought cheap from Kelp4Less ($8 for 5 lbs.), free shipping. Sulfate of Potash has lower salt index 43, but I prefer banana peels with zero salt. Plantation blackstrap molasses supplies 20% calcium, 17% potassium, 20% iron & other trace elements.

In soluble-fertilizer experiments, the best root growth was achieved through high potassium and high calcium, plus decent phosphorus. Best root growth also means more flowering.

Diane - Thanks for the encouragement! ;)

terryjean - Great to know about CPM's eventual size. Maybe I will put her on that trellis after all, and remove ZD.

Hoovb and Jeri - Noooo! So sad to hear about citrus greening disease. And you're right, backyard citrus is really going to suffer. I wonder whether dwarf trees in pots would be easier to keep free from citrus psyillids? I have a soft spot for dwarf citrus.

Strawberryhill - Wow! Thank you for the wonderful info about what/when to fertilize. I'm going to print out your suggestions and take them with me when I go to the plant nursery.

And how kind of you to remember about my debut novel! As a matter of fact, it will be published next week by HarperCollins. Set in 1890s colonial Malaya, THE GHOST BRIDE is about what happens when your arranged Chinese marriage is to a dead man. Come visit me on my blog! http://yschoo.com/the-ghost-bride

If you happen to be a Good Housekeeping Magazine subscriber, my novel is one of this month's Book Picks (pg 160 of the August 2013 issue with Hugh Jackman on the cover).

Today's roses from the garden: (L-R)
ASL, CPM, Evelyn, Louise Odier, Madame Alfred Carriere. All beautiful, but Evelyn smells the best :)

Here is a link that might be useful: My author blog

Thank you, Rabbit, for those stunning bouquets .. I love them all, esp. ASL's form .. will be requesting my library to purchase your novel so my town can enjoy.

Rabbit, I recall you talking about the subject of the book, and I am intrigued!

Sadly, ALL citrus are subject to the Asian Citrus Psyllid. And it's not the Psyllid itself, really -- it's the fatal disease it transmits.

Terrible thing.

Jeri

That book does sound intriguing indeed,Rabbit! Congratulations on being a published author!
Now, I must defend ZDrouhin. In my garden it established very quickly,and is by no means uber-diseasey. I often do not get around to spraying,and when I do, I only use copper and/or sulphur;no chemical fungicides.This year I had more b-spot than usual (didn't get around to spraying),but ZD was not one of the worse affected.It gave me a magnificent first flush, and has continued to produce blooms. However, mine is in clay soil,with good air circulation.It sounds like yours is a very young plant.
Are you sure that you don't have space in your garden to grow a climber up a tripod as a vertical accent? That way, you could keep ZD and give it a chance to see how it will do in your situation. regards, bart

Thank you so much for the encouragement everyone! It means a lot to an unknown newbie writer like me ;)

Yes, ASL seems to have a very beautiful, almost spiralling form in the blooms (I cut another flower today - the second flower it gave the whole year -- arghh!!). Since digging him up and relocating to my pot ghetto, ASL has suddenly started to put out a big flush of new growth and buds. I think it's because he's now in full sun, instead of part shade.

My Austin roses have been rather stingy this year because we had quite a dry hot spring, but every time a bloom appears, I'm smitten (or a sucker?!) again.

Bart - your suggestion of winding ZD on a tripod is interesting. The pliable stems might do well - and I love how they're thornless. I've been trying to buy Annie Laurie McDowell but nobody seems to have it in stock right now :(

Yeah, I've been trying to get Annie Laurie McD for a while now; I think here in Europe only Bierkreek has it, and what with the bad weather everywhere last year, none of their ALMcD's made it. So hopefully this year...It's a shame that this clearly popular rose is so hard to find! bart