>does it matter.. according to the link below.. that it isnt rated for such?????

Look further down the page, they do list Japanese beetles.

>second... how big is this tree ... and why are the jap beetles an issue ... is it >dying.. do you see any impact on the tree.. other than an aesthetic impact .. >trees are pretty resilient ...

The trees are around 12 feet tall. I do not know how much stress the beetles put on the tree, I don't believe they are in any real danger, but it is a major aesthetic impact.

>please dont get carried away with chemicals for the sake of soemthing you >cant do anything about ... E.g. .. bagworms.. are ugly .. they look horrible.. >but probably never killed a tree ever ... are the jap beetles really a threat to >the tree?? ... i dont know... i am giving you things to think about ...

>if not.. dont worry about them.. bug populations ebb and flow over the >years ....

>you should be attacking the japs in the lawn where they live before >emerging ... learn the life cycle and attack where they are most
>vulnerable ...

I hardly think treating two trees would be called "getting carried away with chemicals", especially compared to treating the entire lawn with insecticide, killing the firefly larvae (fireflies and the JBs emerge at about the same time) and who knows what else in the process.

I did apply Milky Spore to my lawn last summer. For those not familiar with this product, Milky Spore is a pathogen that, when ingested by Japanese beetls grubs, multiplies and kills the grub, releasing more spore. It takes a few years for this to spread throughout the lawn.

Living in a development where the lots are 0.4 acre, I don't know how much impact just killing the grubs in my yard will have on the population of adults eating in my yard. It doesn't seem there is a good single solution to the JB problem, but we can hope that applying several so so solutions will have an impact.

Also, how can I know if I can't do anything about it unless I give it a shot? I undertstand the point you're making, but if the Bayer product works as advertised, it would be a cheap and easy solution to the problem for my elms.

>finally .. in my opinion .. never put traps in your yard ... give them to >neighbors up wind... the traps ATTRACT them to your yard ... it doesnt >make any sense to me .. to attract, with sex hormones.. every beetle for >miles around .

This is certainly the advice given on numerous websites, but I and other gardenweb members have had luck drawing the beetles away from a garden by placing the trap in a distant part of the lawn. Even in my modestly sized back yard, I have definitely been able to reduce the number of beetles eating my raspberry plants by placing a trap 50' away. I have made a notable modification to the trap, which is to reduce the size of the lure, so the pheromone scent should be greatly reduced.

Alex

I cannot speak to any specific JB/Merit efficacy issues, or to your case specifically, but regarding your question about timing, I do know that professional applicators often apply during winter for spring/summer control of various insect targets. It takes time to move into the plant, especially for large trees. 4-6 weeks is a minimum for spring applications. Mulch and organic material on the surface can also tie up Merit and keep it from moving into the root zone to be taken up. Proper watering in of the material, and placement of the drench is important as well to get good distribution into the tree.

I happen to live in an area that is devoid of Jap beetles. The situation you describe indicates trees under stress. The major problem most folks have is trees planted too deeply. You should be able to see the root flare at ground level. That is where the roots begin to flare from the trunk. If you can't see the root flare, begin to remove soil till you can see it. The depth of that root flare will say something about the future health of the trees. You also indicate a small lot and speak of trees. These elms become very large. Will your yard accommodate several 70-80' trees? I assume you know American elms are subject to Dutch elm disease? It has taker heroic efforts to maintain American elms but many of them have died around Washington DC.

My experience has been that when JB numbers are high, it is very difficult to control adult feeding damage. Here is a 2004 GW posting that may be helpful:
Posted by lrobins z6b MD (My Page) on Thu, Nov 25, 04 at 22:58
Here is some interesting information about Japanese Beetle control from Prof. Daniel A. Potter of the University of Kentucky Department of Agriculture. I have corresponded with this professor, after finding one of his earlier articles about Japanese Beetles on the web, and he has been kind enough to summarize some research results that will probably be published within the next year. I mentioned to Prof. Potter that I would forward his comments to Gardenweb.com. First, here is my summary: several different "conventional" and organic insecticides and repellents, which are advertised to reduce JB damage to plants, were tested by applying the products to linden tree foliage (one of JB's most favorite foods), "weathering" the treated foliage outdoors for varying time intervals of 1,3,7,14,19 days (to test durability of each product when exposed to the elements including rain), and then offering the treated and "weathered" foliage to JBs. Some of the more effective products, from longest to shortest lasting, were: 1. Synthetic pyrethroids (deltamethrin, bifenthrin, lambda-cyhalothrin, permethrin, and cyfluthrin): all gave effective protection for more than 19 days. (I don't yet have the trade names in these products, or any information about the "inert" ingredients that are mixed with the pyrethroids.) 2. Sevin: protected for about 14 days 3. "Pyola" from Gardens Alive, natural (botanically derived) pyrethrins in a canola oil base, the most effective organic product: protected for about 5 days 4. "Neem-away" from Gardens Alive, neem oil product, protected for about 2 days During the protected time span, JBs will not feed (or will not survive an attempt to feed) even when put right next to the "target" foliage. If, as other research suggests, JBs tend to follow a "feeding trail" marked by the pheromone scent of other JBs, it may be that JBs will not return in force to a protected plant (or garden) for some period of time even after the repellent wears off. Such an after-effect was not tested in the study. Here now is the complete letter from Prof. Potter: ############################################################ Last summer one of my students evaluated a number of "organic" insecticides, as well as known or putative feeding deterrents for repellence or direct control of adult Japanese beetles on linden foliage. We sprayed individual intact linden shoots, allowed the residues to weather outdoors for varying 1, 3, 7, 14, or 19 d, and then harvested those shoots and challenged them in "no-choice tests" with 10 beetles confined with a treated or untreated leaf, or in "choice tests" wherein 10 beetles are offered a treated versus untreated leaf in an arena. We tested five synthetic pyrethroids (active ingredients were deltamethrin, bifenthrin, lambda-cyhalothrin, permethrin, cyfluthrin) and all of them gave at least 19 days residual control from a single application, despite frequent and heavy rains. Sevin gave about 2 wks protection (longer than I would have thought), but did not last as long as the pyrethoids. Among the "homeowner-oriented organic products", the most effective were "Pyola" and "Neem-Away", both from Gardens Alive. Pyola is a combo of natural pyrethrins plus canola oil; it was effective out to 3 days, but not to 7 days post-spray. Pyola also was relatively rain-fast once the residues had dried. Pyola served as a feeding deterrent, and also gave rapid knockdown, although most of the exposed beetles eventually recovered in these lab assays. I think they would dessicate and perish in the field. One day old residues of Neem-Away were highly deterrent and gave good protection, but the effect noticeably was wearing off by 3 days, and the product seemed less rain-fast than Pyola. Surround is a kaolin clay based emulsion that is sprayed on plant material to deter insects. It essentially whitewashes the plant material with a fine film of inert white clay. In our trials, surprisingly it did not deter the beetles from eating the linden foliage. Regardless, I don't think that Surround is well suited to use on roses or other flowering ornamentals because the white coating affects aesthetics. But it does have promise for fruit protection, where the clay residues can be washed from the fruit after harvest. We are also looking at Surround as a borer treatment (i.e., whitewashing tree trunks). Keep in mind that these were one set of experiments on one plant species (linden), so results might differ on other plants. For example, we did not apply them to open rose blooms. But from what we saw, either Pyola or Neem-Away should give short-term residual protection and be effective if re-applied as-needed (every few days) during the period when Japanese beetles are abundant. Of course, neither will protect rose blooms that break bud and open "in between" sprays. Several of the "natural" plant extract-based products that we tested (and that claim efficacy against Japanese beetles) caused severe phytotoxicity (burned the leaves), so growers would be well advised to test such products on one or two plants before treating a whole garden. As I am 100% Research and Teaching, I regret that I'm unable to answer all requests from the many individual gardeners who find me on the Web or telephone. We will be publishing this work in both scientific and popular articles, but probably not until sometime later in 2005. Also, we may be doing additional testing on roses. Feel free to follow up later on. Incidentally, there is a good Fact Sheet on Japanese beetle management that can be downloaded for free from the University of Kentucky Department of Entomology website. Hope that helps. Regards, Dan Potter

>I happen to live in an area that is devoid of Jap beetles. The situation you >describe indicates trees under stress.

I don't understand what you mean here, what did I write that indicarted that the trees are under stress? Are you suggesting that trees which are not under stress will not be attacked by Japanese beetles?

> The major problem most folks have is
>trees planted too deeply. You should be able to see the root flare at ground >level. That is where the roots begin to flare from the trunk. If you can't see >the root flare, begin to remove soil till you can see it. The depth of that root >flare will say something about the future health of the trees.

They came as one gallon plants, so they were in about 6 inches of planting soil at most. I planted them in a slight mound, so the surface of the potting soil was a couple inches above the original surface of the yard there. In short, I can't imagine that they are planted too deep.

> You also
>indicate a small lot and speak of trees. These elms become very large. Will >your yard accommodate several 70-80' trees?

My original message was not clear on the number, there are only two elms, and the front yard is plenty big for them. Once they are over 40 feet across, one of them will enter my neighbor's airspace. Currently, his birch, maple, and willow all hang over my yard, so I'm not too concerned. :)

I grew up in a neighborhood of 1/3 acre lots, and most of them had elms before Dutch elm came through. Some remain, including 5 in the yard where I grew up, so I do have first hand knowledge of what mature elms look like. Believe me, I put a lot of thought into the locations of all my trees.

>I assume you know American
>elms are subject to Dutch elm disease? It has taker heroic efforts to >maintain American elms but many of them have died around Washington >DC.

Yes I do know that. That is why I planted the cultivar 'Valley Forge', which has the highest tolerance to Dutch elm disease of any American elm variety tested. If you are interested, you can read a report on the testing performed by the USDA here:
http://www.elmpost.org/report1.htm

In addition, one side effect of living in a newish development (built in the early 90's) is that there are no elm trees in my neighborhood, at least none that I can spot. So in addition to being highly tolerant trees, they are also rather isolated from other elms, minimizing the chance they they will be exposed. There are Zelkovas around, which I understand can be carriers.

Alex

arbordave,

Thanks for the post. For the elms I'm primarily interested in a systemic product, mostly because each year it will be harder to spray these trees, they grow pretty fast!

Alex

Beneficial nematodes will dramatically reduce the number of japanese beetles that are allowed to grow into beetle-hood. They are applied to the soil and are available through Garden's Alive, among other places. I've had very good success with these while my neighbors still use the antiquated bag-a-bug system.

Patty

We've had good luck w/ben. nematodes controlling grubs in our yard also but they don't stop beetles flying in from elsewhere, unfortunately. Sorry Alex, no advice, but you definitely have my sympathy :~). The beetles seem to be particularly bad this yr. and I am SICK of them already. Fortunately I've never had anything completely defoliated (other than morning glories and I could care less about them) so I try to ignore them as much as I can. I also try to focus on keeping the soil healthy and the plants as stress free as possible (adequate water, etc.) so they can withstand the feeding. Good luck!

Alex,

You sure are not getting very good advice in this thread. It seems no one took the time to read your whole post before giving suggestions.

Unfortunately, I don't know what to tell you as I have similar issues.

I have relatively young trees and 4 Greenspire Lindens which seem to be a favorite food of Japanese Beetles. Last year I sprayed, and I also did the same thing this year. Unfortunately, it only takes about 24 hours for the beetles to defoliate the entire tree.

For this reason, I finally bought the Bayer stuff (expensive, about $69 a gallon). I just applied it this week and the bottle said that it takes at least a week to work and maybe up to a month so you should have been fine. Although the instructions said that it could be applied at any time, it did say Fall was best.

Who knows, I'll see how it works next year. I'll be happy if it at least minimizes the damage.

Just got a notice the other day from NC State that I'll pass on. Of course this applies to the NC area, but you may be able to grab something from it to help your situation.

Although the instructions said that it could be applied at any time, it did say Fall was best.

Normally I would say to follow the instructions but this is bizarre. How is applying an insecticide just before leaf fall going to help prevent a beetle attack in late spring or summer? Timing is important with something like this, but the timing has to be when the insects attack the tree.

Another way to tackle the problem is to treat the larvae in surrounding ground as described in the Turffiles link. I guess that's only useful if a lot of the beetles are coming from your own lawn.

Beneficial nematodes are effective for the control of the white grub of the June beetle but do not work especially for Jap beetles. Milky spore disease seems to work better for the grubs of Jap beetles. This seems to be supported by research. As I mentioned in an earlier post, for some reason the Japanese beetle has not found its way to Texas, at least in any numbers. Some seem to have come in on nursery plants from infected areas. Perhaps they do not like our triple-digit temps in the summer. I remember as a boy in Ohio, my Dad picking Jap beetles off his grapes. He would put them in a paper bag and then step on the bag. From what I have read it takes a village to control Jap beetles. Dosen't do a lot of good to effect some control in your yard if your neighbors don't take part in the action. I would like to hear if anyone has had success using any type of systemic insecticide.

I recall using that product when it was new to save a youngish spruce from a borer (holes found no borer found). It was recommended to apply it in the fall as it takes several months to be absorbed. It worked for me.

(disclaimer: haven't followed all the links and read everything fully here...)

I've used the Bayer drench named in the title of this thread, and it seems to be working. At least, there aren't very many beetles chomping away at the leaves. Before they were swarming the trees all afternoon.

Also, you need to read the label for this product (and all products). It plainly states to only apply this product once in a growing season...not repeatedly.

FWIW, I have a rose and use another bayer drench with the same bug killer in it, and it worked very well on most insects that we have problems with EXCEPT Japanese beetles. It didn't stop them at all. For my roses at least, pretty much all that dissuades the pests is me throwing them into soapy water (or you can spray insecticide right on them).

Bayer recommends applying the drench in the fall for spring pests, but again, not sure the time of application will make any difference with JBs.

If I remember correctly, Bayer doesn't prevent them from feeding, it just kills them once they do. So if you have 50,000 Japanese Beetles and each is taking 5 little nibbles, you will still see some damage.

Best regards,
Ernie

I've had success using the Bayer product with my Birches (also a favorite JB food source).

You really want to make sure that you apply the product, diluted as directed ... early enough for it to be taken up into the tree and distributed out to the tips.

The product label says that this may take a month or more with larger trees.

My Birches are about 20' tall and I get minimal (tolerable) damage to my trees.

I, typical, apply the product as soon as the trees start growing in the spring.

Shrubs n Bulbs writes "Normally I would say to follow the instructions but this is bizarre. How is applying an insecticide just before leaf fall going to help prevent a beetle attack in late spring or summer? Timing is important with something like this, but the timing has to be when the insects attack the tree."

The bayer product being discussed is a systemic and as such application must be made well before the anticipated pest attack. Fall application is a fully acceptable method if the pesticide is to be fully translocated throught the plant by early summer.

On another not deealin with jap beetles is a pia since even if control them in your yard they are going to come in from other peoples yards that have not beeen treated. Trying to control the beetles on an elm as it gets larger is going to become more and more expensive to apply the chemical as the tree gets larger. The home owner needs to make the judgement of wheter or not treating the tree for it's life time is worth the expence of growing the tree.

I've recently applied Bayer Tree and Shrub Protect and Feed to my Princeton American Elm (now about 12 feet high, 6" circumference of base of trunk). Jap Beetles are in the area and have skeletonized quite a few leaves of this tree and I expect this product to help eliminate them. Since it's been quite humid, a bit windy, the ground already wet and I water about twice a week, and the fact that this tree is growing like a weed, I believe transportation should occur rather quickly, within a week or two.

The biggest benefit of this product that I expect for my elm is that it will kill the Elm bark beetle, the principal source/carrier of Dutch Elm Disease. In combination with good fertilizing, pruning, watering, and the dearth of elms in my immediate area, I am hoping this product will save my elm from DED for as long as I'm around to care for it.

Several years ago I was VERY upset the systemic Bayer All-In-One Rose & Flower Care didn't control my roses' blackspot because I spent $45 & faithfully applied it EXACTLY as the label specified all summer. Then I read a post on GW that said you can get your money back from Bayer. I found the fine print on the bottle and sure enough it was true. I did get my money back from Bayer. I assume they still make this offer. You need to save receipt & bottle for bar code to submit for refund.
I also used the Bayer systemic Tree & Shrub on a boxwood that had been heavily infested with leafminers every year for 30 years. It didn't work the first year but the second year they were gone.
Was the Bayer finally working or coincidence? I'll never know. I have very heavy clay soil -I've wondered if it delayed absorbtion?

As the starter of this thread, I was surprised to see it revived a year later.

Sue, you observation is interesting to me, because this year, the damage to my elms is much less. It's hard to know what the reason is...I applied milky spore a couple years ago, but my lot is only 0.4 acre, so there should still be plenty of adults around from my neighbors, and my raspberries and rhubarb are still getting ravaged.. Another possibility is that it took the product more time than expected to spread throughout the tree. I also have clay soil.

I'll continue to apply it once a year.

Alex

Fall does seem like the best time to apply the Bayer Advanced to help defend trees.
If applied in the spring, I would also use topical products to help rid the tree of current infestations

Hi! My husband and I have a linden tree on our property and in 2006, the beetles just decimated it. It was our main source of shade, so having it defoliated was awful. Anyway, I got some of the Bayer insecticide and applied it but I can't remember if I put it on in fall or spring). The beetles still got to the tree this summer, but not nearly as badly. It looked like the ends of the branches got nailed-all the newer growth. What was weird was we'd lived here for six years before this ever became a problem. And we have a small property, too, about.25 acre, plus there are about 50 rose bushes on the property. So now I am not sure if the Bayer helped or if the beetles just weren't as bad this year but I guess I'll try it again for the next growing season-but I am thinking that maybe I should wait until spring. The tree is fairly mature now-it's as high as our two story house, and about 15 feet across.

So I wish you the best, Alexander3, and if anyone has any advice, I'd appreciate it. (and my husband has treated the lawn with milky spore and nematodes, etc., and he keeps the rose bushes treated with something systemic-plus alot of manual control, i.e., knock 'em off the bushes into a coffee can, etc. Oh, and my dogs love to eat them!--so I knock the beetles out of the tree in the early morning, and the dogs run around under the tree munching away-it's rather disgusting)

I don't know about beetles, but the Bayer works great for white flies. I had some gardenias that were infested with them, they all disappeared within two weeks after using the Bayer.

From past experience, I agree that now, in the Fall, is the best time to apply the Bayer systemic.

We have aspen and cottonwood trees here in Alaska that have a zig zag pattern on a great number of the leaves----will your product help eliminate the insect causing this?----the leaves do end up falling from the trees----especially the aspen---thanks so much

Has anyone had any luck with this product for Japanese beetles since this old post? We're in central Iowa (northeast of Ames) and have what a large/huge beautiful elm on our lot... We were told it was a Chinese elm that escaped Dutch Elm disease here, but I'm pretty sure it's a Slippery Elm. I thought it was a longer-term cycle thing with the beetles last year (given what little I've observed with this tree over the years), but the beetles are back in full force again this summer. Now I realize we should have watered it with last year's drought and I've also finally researched and discovered that it now has a severe case of wetwood bacterial disease!!! I would hate to lose this tree. It's possibly the most outstanding feature of this small lot!

How big an elm and is it over your home or kid's bedroom? Wetwood always sound like a fancy name for rot to me.

The size also affects hiw much Bayer you will have to apply. I am struggling with this as I would like to treat a big ash I have. Think I will call the 800# and ask what happens if my kid or hypothetical puppy goes rolling in the grass after application then decide. Perhaps I will make my apllication then go on vacation for a week lol.

I had excellent results with Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub insect Control. A professional Arborist gave me these instructions: It must contain 1.47% Imidacloprid THEN...Use as a drench. Apply the 3rd week of June. Drench from base of tree one foot out all the way around the tree: 1 oz per inch of distance around trunk at chest height.

i had absolutely no JB after having it devour the top and a good share of the rest of the tree last year. i believe the timing is crucial because he stressed it has to go down the 3rd week of June!! So better luck next year!! This stuff WORKS!!!