Even here in the UK James Galway will throw up tall canes, let them bloom then hack the cane back to about three feet. It will branch nicely on the top of that. I've got a lady of megginch making a bid for freedom at the moment, we are having high 20s low 30s here at the moment so it is making everything jump. I think we are getting a taste of what it is like for you guys - useful for my climbers, we get so few years where we can make meaningful progress with height lol.

Jackie, Austin made good use of vigorous roses and climbers. He had to. His climate is less than half of our growing season. He wanted vigorous roses and needed to use those which possessed and passed on vigor. Combine that with selecting vigorous seedlings, then loose them in two to three times the growing season and you get house eaters.

For instance, Graham Thomas (Golden Celebration, and several others which make decent 'climbers' here) are half Charles Austin. Charles Austin was bred from Aloha, which is half New Dawn. Bingo! Does that give you any idea where the "octopus" arms come from in milder climates? There are other breeding lines which may, or may not, have similar examples in them. We'll never know since Mr. Austin has chosen to conceal his breeding information as "proprietary". But, often knowing what's behind a rose can give you clues to what to expect from it. Kim

Ingrid, I really understand.

I once visited a public garden near here. They had planted, just a couple of months previously, a new Austin bed. In the front row, about 2 ft. from the path, was a row of Golden Celebration, planted on 2-ft. centers.

Behind them was a second row -- this one of Fair Bianca.

I expect that bed has long-since been replanted. Sometimes, things don't go the way you plan.

Kim, that's interesting -- that New Dawn is back there. I had never explored the pedigrees, but it does make sense. I wonder -- is climbing habit recessive??

Jeri

I've tried chopping them down and letting them grow. Mixed results. Some won't bloom after being chopped down as Jeri said. Some don't mind being tried down to a trellis and grow flowers along the cane like a climber. It takes more room. Some of them are just going to only be fabulous in spring and after that maybe a few flowers in summer and another smaller flush when the weather cools down. These are like Bourbons for me so that's where they live- with the Bourbons and HPs. The DA octopus clan seems to prefer cooler climates. The best you can do for them in warm climates is plant where they get shade in afternoon hot hours and keep the water and mulch in good supply.

There appears to be a recessive climbing trait behind many, if not most, roses, Jeri. With some, such as New Dawn, it seems dominant because nearly every seedling released containing its breeding wants to climb or otherwise be EXTREMELY vigorous. Kim

Strawberry, the rest of the canes are not nearly so thorny.

Would pegging it help it bloom more along the cane? I can't help but notice my very happy Young Lycidas has thrown what I would have called laterals on a climber on the dropping canes. Looks like it wants to be a massive ball of color soon.

I am actually okay with a tall Lady M winding around with Grandma as long as they play nice with each other. (due to the location I have few worries about lack of air flow since they are at a windy corner)

Yippee! this thread is just what I needed! In fact, I even posted on the English Roses forum looking for help. My The Ingenious Mr. Fairchild is giving me problems, too, Ingrid. I got the plant say 5 or 6 years ago and loved it's peony-like lavender-pink blooms; it wasn't stingy, either. But subsequently I moved two roses that were next to it, and it began growing wildly,becoming a big, all-green ,uber-leafy plant,with very few flowers. I thought,"well, let's try to get a climber out of it" and supported it on a rebar teepee.But this year it was not much better:first flush was made up of a lot of truly AWFUL flowers: all were either devastated by what I presume were thrips (ugly black centers in chewed-up pseudo-"flowers",balling, or were simply just plain"abortions" (tiny, discoloured,deformed things) I fertilized (organic and chemical) and watered it a bit (not lavishly though),and got some decent blooms,thoygh nothing to write home about,and they had a limp quality to the petals,as if they were not able to take up enough water).Ingrid's description of her TIMF seems like it would fit mine ,too:gangly,not very ornamental...So,what's the vote, Forum Maties? Give it some more time to grow into it's new stature,let the root system catch up with the top growth (improving the soil organically all the way, naturally)i.e.,assume that it really IS a teenager that just has to finish growing up?or prune it back hard (next spring? now?). Kittymoonbeam,which ones in your experience flower well when let to be big, for example? and which ones flower best if pruned hard?
Now,I know that some of you out there are not fans at all of the Austins as a group. For me, the jury is still out. I've only been gardening for 15 years or so, and my land was horribly neglected up to then: I don't have "garden soil",I have rock, clay,building debris...I've taken quite a while to actually "make" soil from scratch, and I'm only recently getting the hang of it: I just have to do the back-breaking task of bringing in native soil from elsewhere, preferably heavy clay.And it's not just the Austins that behave this way: at least two teas pop into mind; Baronne Snoy and Clementina Carbonieri. With these, too, large, healthy plants with terrible, non-existant blooms! And Clementina got hard-pruned last winter: a very heavy, long-lasting snow broke almost half of the bush and I had to remove it. Well, you'd never guess to look at it now! but the flowers were pathetic.I'm going to move CC (I planted this before I really had the hang of soil improvement,and plus I don't like where I put it). As for the Baronne,that, like TIMF, may just be in a spot where the soil's too shallow and I have to build it up (though Marie Nabonnand, right next to it, is doing absolutely GREAT,is getting huge, very floriferous, etc).Basically, I've decided to give the Baronne one more year-maybe-and if I don't see a vast improvement,out it goes.Reine des Violettes was a problem child, looked awful,but I dug in some heavy clay and organic matter near the roots, mulched and fertilized,and got a decent first flush and now a very good second flush, which is pretty rare in my climate.So, I don't want to be too impatient with TIMF;after all, it DID bloom well before I moved the nearby roses and it got "too big for it's britches"
Great thread; thanks Kippy, and sorry for this long post. regards, bart

I've had the same issue with Austin roses and have used 3 ways to resolve it.

Pegging made Christopher Marlowe and Sir John Betjeman look more bushy and flower dependably. Both are growing in large pots. And yes, both are larger than expected in my warm climate in coastal southern Ca.

Planting near a low fence (or other low support) allows the long canes to grow horizontally and be supported by drooping over and through the fence. This encourages lateral growth and much more flowering. Jude the Obscure and Jubilee Celebration look nice growing and flowering this way. I'll post pics in separate posts.

The third way is by wrapping and sort of pegging the rose around a teepee. I've done this to Gertrude Jekyll, Golden Celebration, Teasing Georgia and Graham Thomas. Here is Gertrude Jekyll and Golden Celebration side by side:

Hope this helps you!

Lee

Here is a bad pic of Jubilee Celebration growing through a fence surrounding a deck

And Lyda Rose growing and drooping across / supported by a wrought iron fence built into a retaining wall.

Thank you, Leezen, for those great pics. .. Lyda Rose is gorgeous, i'ts on my buy-list.

Strawberry,

Lyda has bloomed continuously since April. You'll love her!

leezen, your garden looks lovely. We love seeing garden pictures and it seems that many people with beautiful gardens are shy about showing them off. There's a lot of inspiration to be gained from others' gardens so it's helpful in addition to being a great pleasure to view others' efforts.

Bart, you must have the muscles of a body builder by now. To build a garden with that much effort takes a lot of determination and strength, and I admire your persistence.

Ingrid

Very nice pictures, Leezen! Did your Austins go through a gawky,poor-blooming teen-ager phase before they got so nice?
Ingrid, what are you planning to do about your TIMF? How long have you had it? I went to the Austin site to look it up, BTW. Says it "should" grow to about 4feet tall,a graceful shrub,flowers with crisp petals...I wish!!!!!Will this ugly duckling ever go back to being a swan again??? bart

Largest Austins here in the gardens (south inland Orange County CA) would be Teasing Georgia, Crown Princess Margareta and Graham Thomas. I planted them in places where I wanted large plants, but the lack of rebloom in Teasing Georgia and CPM was what distressed me (Graham Thomas reblooms reliably here) Finally, this season, we all tried something different, and pruned down by about 1/3 like a big hedge on TG and CPM after the initial spring flush. They are now much more generous and are giving a second flush as I type. I have friends nearby who have enormous Golden Celebrations, but the abbey specimens are much more restrained for some reason. I have had the oldest GC in the ground for about 7 years, I think, and it's never exceeded 5' - frankly, I wish it would be bigger. My friend who is about 14 miles from here has a GC that is ginormous - I am sure it's like 10' x 15' before her winter pruning. It's also spectacular. Each garden is a world unto itself.

Bart, since my TIMF is not nearly mature yet I'm just going to more or less let it do its thing, with the exception that I'm snipping off the very tips of the canes, hoping they'll take the hint and put out new shoots further down. It seems to be a willing bloomer, although I'm disbudding it, also in the hope that it will fill out more with leaves. It's much too early to declare it a failure, and it will be an interesting experiment to see if my selective snipping will encourage it to grow into a nice bush rather than a homely octopus.

Ingrid

Hi Bart:

My Austins are own-root. First year gallon-size Evelyn threw 3-feet, or 0.9 meter octopus canes with high nitrogen fertilizer NPK 10-5-4. Second year, no nitrogen, but calcium and potassium, I spring-pruned it short below my knee, gave 40 blooms for 1st flush. I pruned down below knee again, but left one branch unpruned just to experiment.

That unpruned branch became over 3 feet, or almost 1 meter tall , with no flower. The chopped-down branches have many buds. Today I counted over 30, that's pretty good for 95 F. or 38 Celsius ... no rain these weeks.

Same with Golden Celebration, last year green to the tip through our warmest winter. Last year I forgot to spring-prune, it was very stingy ... gave 10 blooms per flush. This 3rd year I chopped it down to below knee, moved it (lost half of its root). 1st flush was good, considering that it was moved a few months ago. 2nd flush, today, I counted over 30 buds on a short plant 2 feet tall, or 0.7 meter.

I did the same to Radio Times, pruned it really short below knee, and moved it to a new location. Now it's blooming well, despite our current hot and dry weather .. the trees are wilted here. My tap water pH is over 8, very alkaline.

I pruned Mary Magdalene most severe, down to 1.5 feet, or 0.4 meter in early spring, and also after the 1st flush. Below is how Mary looks in 2nd flush, short and lots of blooms, it's next to a big shrub, plus under the roof's overhang, so doesn't get much water. Picture taken in 95 F heat, or 35 Celsius:

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Jul 20, 13 at 15:27

Kim -- Thanks!

Knowing the history of the advent of remontancy, I sorta guessed that there was a hidden recessive climbing gene. So,that's PART of the problem with Mr. Austin's Jolly Green Giants. :-)

Jeri

Very interesting; thanks to all! It does sort of seem, from what Jerome and Strawberryhill say, that the Austins may actually need harder pruning in order to flower well. Yet, at least for now, I think I'm going to go along with Ingrid's policy,for tho my TIMF is probably about 5 or 6 years old or so, it only got huge in the last two years or so . And these past two years have been ones of severe drought. Then, this year, thank Heaven, we got lots of rain and snow. I'm having a strange rose season: everything started late-ish.My faithful, formerly ever-reliable Clair Matin had a horrible first "flush" (if you could even call it that...),b-spotted tremendously (never did in the past),lost all it's leaves, and is now re-blooming. Harlekin is usually one of my first to bloom; not this year,and it, too, had a pathetic first flush and is now-in JULY- re-blooming well! I usually get almost no re-bloom in my garden,BTW. So, when I think about it,maybe I really am being a bit unrealistic about TIMF,considering that all of my roses are coming out of a long period of stress. I do plan to continue working on the soil...regards, bart

Strawberryhill, I am curious what did you fertilize with?

Grace e

Hi Grace: I learned from Canadian Agriculture website that late fall fertilization before frost yield better result than early spring. So when I winter-protect my roses before hard-frost hit ... I mixed horse manure with alfalfa meal and top-dressed roses. The spring flush was awesome, under 2 feet Austins gave 40+ blooms.

When I prune the 1st flush off, I put gypsum (calcium sulfate) and Epsoma sulfate of potash NPK 0-0-60 (use very little, salt index 43, can brown petals if used in excess or wrong time). Those zillion petals bloom require lots of calcium and potassium for best water uptake.

If I want the blooms to be deeper pink and better color, I give MiracleGro Bloom Booster NPK 10-52-10, high in phosphorus, boron, iron, and trace elements. That's to enhance the blooms' color, I don't use that stuff in hot weather due to its nitrogen content (salt index over 80). I don't use that stuff on Austins since I withhold nitrogen on purpose, so they stay compact.

I tested tomatoe spikes, chemical NPK 8-16-8, that driven deep down with a wooden post. I'm not crazy about the too much leaves result, not much blooms as expected. That chemical stuff can burn foliage in hot temp. I get better blooming with horse manure as mulch.

I learn to stay away from granular fertilizer, even the organic type, since they gunk up on top. Nitrogen mobility is a 10, potassium is somewhat mobile at 3, and phosphorus mobility is a 1, stay put where it's applied.

That's the logic behind using soluble fertilizer for instant phosphorus uptake. If your soil is tested low in phosphorus, soluble is most efficient. A large study in Australian agriculture showed that granular phosphorus didn't help much with the yield, but soluble phosphorus increased yield substantially.

How late do you fertilize in the fall? I've always heard you should withhold fertilizer so as not to push growth that will die with the frost. It's interesting that there's a new theory.

Hi Ophelia: Right before the ground freeze is that I read for late fall fertilization. Lawn follows the same approach of late fall is better than spring. My neighbor has the best looking lawn, and I asked her when she fertilize? She said once a year, during Thanksgiving, that's right before our killing frost in zone 5a. I tried that approach and had the greenest lawn in spring.

When I put organics like alfalfa mixed with horse manure, they get frozen by the final killing frost, and when early March comes, the melted snow and spring rain make alfalfa tea for early root growth. My roses were blooming 2 weeks ahead of the rose park nearby.

Here's an excerpt from the link below on lawn fertilization, which makes sense with roses also:

"Avoid early-spring applications. Research shows that these applications do not really enhance spring green-up compared with late-fall applications.

Fertilizing healthy lawns in spring just increases top growth at the expense of root growth. The lush, succulent growth encouraged by spring fertilization makes the plant more susceptible to insects and diseases."

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell University on lawn fertilization

Here's the link from University of Illinois Extension on late-fall fertilization for roses, see excerpt: "Roses can be fall fertilized after the plants have gone dormant. Applying fertilizer at this time will not encourage growth but will be available as the plants start to grow in the spring. Also by using a fertilizer high in potassium winter hardiness tends to be increased."

Here is a link that might be useful: University of Illinois Extension on Roses

This fall fertilizing theory is fascinating, and it makes sense to me. I plan to try it. Thank You for sharing.

Thanks so much - I will try that this year!

If you are fall fertilizing, make sure that it is okay to do in your zone. Some get few freezes and we have to induce a sort of dormancy by leaving hips and allowing that rest period.

Drying the roses out induces a deeper "dormancy" than not dead heading and not feeding, Kippy. For the arctic hardy, once flowering Old European Garden Roses, their genes say 'shut down' with cold. The Tea and China genes say "shut down" with dry. With many of our winters now lacking rain, that shouldn't be too difficult for many of us. Kim

Strawberry, forgive me if you answered this but how far do you chop them after a flush? And do you chop them after each flush? Do you chop in fall or leave them as they are.
thanks!
Susan

Hi Susan: Before spring with lots of rain, I chopped them below knee. pH of rain water is 5.6, helps with blooming.

After 1st flush, with some rain coming, I chopped them 2 feet. After 2nd flush, less rain, I lightly trimmed ALL branches. After 3rd flush heading into winter, I don't prune whatsoever. They survive my zone 5a winter best if I don't prune.

I prune hard after a flush if there's plenty of rain coming. I prune lightly if there's little rain. Putting vinegar to lower my tap water (pH 8) helps Austins to break out in blooms after pruning. No more than 1 tablespoon vinegar per gallon. Musk like Annie L. McDowell and Marie Pavie blooms better if it's slightly acidic rain water or soil.

Dark-green leaves like Romanticas wilted in the heat with sulfur and acid to lower water pH. Romanticas bloom well with my water at pH 8, they stay compact, no need for pruning.

Pruning and lowering tap water pH to that of rain (pH 5.6)helps most Austins to bloom, except for Evelyn, Golden Cel, and Pat Austin, which bloom well with alkaline tap. I have alkaline soil, so I put sulfur around the bush after pruning. Correcting pH near neutral helps to unlock nutrients to generate blooms.

Some municipals put hydrated lime in tap water so pipes won't corrode. Hydrated lime, with unstable calcium binds up with phosphorus and potassium in soil, thus less blooms if watered with high pH water. To test if your tap water is alkaline, boil that with red cabbage ... if it turns blue, your tap water is alkaline. Compare that with red cabbage boiled in distilled water.

Distilled water boiled with red cabbage turns violet. Distilled water is slightly acidic, not neutral as I thought. If you get violet from boiling your tap water with red cabbage, then you are lucky, no need to adjust tap water.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Jul 22, 13 at 22:03

Austin Octopi do well with support:

Gorgeous photo!
Strawberry, thanks. You mentioned Lyda Rose above. She is bulletproof here in Nashville.
Susan

I've been getting crazy octopi limbs with James Galway this year! At first flush it was over 6 feet high, and after I pruned it back by half, it's even taller now--with only like 4 super tall shoots! Crazy octopi. And the canes too stiff to train on the fence, to boot, so it just waves around manically.
However, with new rose bushes, I don't really prune them overly much in order to get a general idea of their 'true' growth patterns. That said, I think a hard spring prune is in JG's future.
Here's a pic (sorry for quality, I just popped out with my iphone). It's literally too tall to capture in full. On the left, it's a bit hard to see for the sun is behind it, is a cane that's probably 7 plus feet tall. Silly James Galway.

Erasmus, your photo shows EXACTLY what I'm dreaming that my Austins might become!!! I may have screwed up last year on TIMF taking out a lot of blind growth ; maybe I just have to be patient. Amelie, Itoo,have James Galway, and this rose ,too, has some of the problems like TIMF,though not as bad. JG is a big, healthy green plant, gave me some nice flowers, but could do better. I am training mine horizontally; taking one of the stiff-ish, long canes and tying it at a slight angle,only forcing it ever so slightly.Then you wait a week or so ,go back to it,and tie the angled cane again, a little more horizontally, only forcing it ever so gently.And continue doing this until you've got it where you want it! bart

Sounds like a plan, Bart. If you catch the canes when they're new and flexible it is pretty easy to train them. They put out so many laterals when trained horizontally. Gertrude Jekyll ( plant in my pic) will put out really long laterals so it does require pruning. My Gertrude plant is blooming right now just a little, and it'll bloom in fall. Some people advocate cutting back the entire plant severely to get it to rebloom but I think cutting back the laterals is all you need to do. I don't think it's necessary to support all long caned Austins, but you can peg them to get laterals. They just take up space. My Teasing Georgia plant is very large and shrubby but this spring started putting out some octopi that were going up in a tree. I cut them off because I didn't want a climber. Most of the time it doesn't do that. Here's a pic of an octopus arm of Alchymist going in to a Lavender Lassie plant. Octopus is another name for unruly but accidents can be nice surprises.

Erasmus, that photo of Alchymist with Lavender Lassie is one of the most gorgeous rose photos I've ever seen. Positively DIVOON! Looks like a really wonderful Ice Cream Sundae. Or an extra-sumptuous chintz.

I think you have the right idea regarding those long canes. Where others see octopi, you see opportunities.

I have that problem with Heritage. I thought I had pruned it into submission, but this year, with all our rain, it has an 8 ft cane. Also in the front row...while WS 2000, which I though would be larger, languishes behind it, sprawling on the ground at about 3 feet. Guess I will be doing some digging this fall.

I tied a bunch of the longest canes to the picket fencing yesterday. I am hoping for a fence row like yours.

I realized that like James Galway, Lady of Meggenich also wanted to peak in to moms bedroom and show her a few roses and is building a nice collection of them at the end of the cane. It found the window on its own.

Gotta love it.

Love these canoodling pics--wonderful blend of different pastels.

Kate

Thanks, Kate. I think nature does better than we do in coming up with these artful combinations. Diane

Oooh Nanodoll! I love it! Thank you plan9fromposhmadison. I too like to get an idea what to expect from a plant but often enjoy the surprises.

I agree: those colourcominations are gorgeous,both that of Erasmus and that of Diane....bart

Beautiful and scandalous, Diane! Jude the Obscure with Frederic Mistral. How positively BLOOMSbury Group of them to carry on that way! ...particularly with a nascent troika becoming apparent.

But who is the third party lurking demurely behind the leaves?

Oh, teehee, plan9, I guess I wasn't really thinking how those two canoodlers would look to innocent viewers of the pic. The lurker is another Jude, perhaps waiting for the the second Frederic to give a nod. Diane

You two are so funny! Myself, I'd call if a menage a trois.....

Ingrid

Buford, WS2000 will sprawl unless he is trained up on a support. Once on the support, he looks nice and fills in hiding the support. Eventually older canes harden up and hold the plant upright so less tying is needed. My WS200 is blooming much better now that it is tied up on a structure. I am using tomato ladders.

A photo of Lady of M the other day, waiting for the buds to open

{{gwi:290827}}

Feeling left out on the long canes, Crocus decided to attempt a few long canes too

{{gwi:290828}}
With larger sized roses as well.

Kippy, that is a big hunk of gorgeous Crocus. Will he be able to reach the Lady for some canoodling? Diane

Nana,

Lady of M is draping herself over granny's hat, not very lady like if you ask me. But Crocus wants to canoodle with both Lady of M and Young Lysidas...and maybe is why James Galway decided to throw a cane above the fray