It sounds like they may of had too many nutrients. Maybe the compost was not aged enough? Did you forget to water? Could you post a photo, and I will try to say, what I think is going on. I think the soil was too rich. I think you should always mix compost in with natural garden soil. I like maybe 50 compost and 50 soil for something like vegetables and with other plants less compost even is better. The problem is in straight compost, you get problems with growth.

I have a lot of issues with 'Mel's Mix'.......I really do not think it is an ideal soil mix for a raised bed. Or for any other purpose. The ingredients tend to be excessively moisture retentive and lead to compaction. Vermiculite in particular is an expensive ingredient added to supposedly offer some drainage enhancement. But once this material is fully saturated with water, it collapses and loses any ability to lighten or aerate the soil. And peat is just not an ideal soil amendment unless you are attempting to grow acid loving plants and need to lower pH. It too is of a very small particle size and when wet, compacts. And as the compost continues to breakdown, it too compacts......all of these issues lead to an excessively moist, poorly draining planting bed.

I doubt the soil was too rich - plants can grow perfectly well in just compost provided other growing conditions are met (aeration, drainage and water being the key). But the suggestion to use a 50-50 mix (or a 75-25 mix) of just garden soil and compost is well-advised. Plants need the mineral component that is only present in 'real' soil, especially as SFG doesn't advocate any fertilizing other than adding more compost. Minerals include the trace nutrients that all plants require for good healthy growth and they are just not present in the Mix.

Believe me when I tell you that 1000's of home gardeners have been growing with just this simple combo of plain ole garden soil and compost in raised beds for generations with very saitsfactory results.

Both good replies, so don't forget the mineral component that plants need. Ordinarily, many plants (if they get big enough) will root down into the dirt and the problem might not be so bad. Dig the thick layer of Mel's Potting Soil in somewhat and that may help.

Here's a photo of one of my MM beds. The tomatoes did fine, and I got a couple harvests off the basil, but the peppers and the eggplant never fruited, and the carrots are pretty small.
{{gwi:312272}}

Here's the other bed, with my new compost mixed in.
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We didn't have any issues with compacting. We get frequent rain, but did find partway through the summer that it was drying out faster than expected, so we started watering between rain when needed. That seemed to help some, but not with the fruit.

So I'm confused on the MM, which, 3 for 3, you're all saying is no good. But I've read plenty of threads where people say it's fantastic (and I love the no weeds part of it). And I posted in the SFG forum (post linked below) and they said there were minerals in the compost.

I'm so confused....

And what about the worm question? Why do I have none?

Here is a link that might be useful: My question about MM & soil

I do not dig in compost. I toss it on the surface and let Mother Nature do the rest. I don't know how it works but the proof is in the shrubs I grow.

If you do not find Earth worms I am thinking your pile is not damp enough. Even though I have a cold pile I always get worms and some sort of larvae They are helpful. It does not need to stay wet but it should be moist.

I think you put too much faith in Mels mix.

This post was edited by emmarene on Sun, Oct 26, 14 at 21:20

There's a bit of a mystique surrounding SFG and Mel's Mix - devotees swear by it but if you have some understanding of soil science, the nutrients plants require for fruitful, healthy growth and the contributions - or lack thereof - the mix ingredients offer to this end, it's obvious that there are some major deficiencies.

Minerals come from rocks. And rocks are are the base material of soil - garden soil. The mineral content of peat is nonexistant, the mineral content of vermiculite is minimal and what there is is very limited in diversity and unless those cows are eating a very strange diet, you're not going to find any in the composted manure either. So you are lacking copper, zinc, iron, boron, magnesium, calcium, sulphur and manganese. And to a lesser extent, cobalt, sodium, molybdenum and nickel.

And let's talk about mushroom compost. This is the base material used for the culitvation of mushrooms. Ingredients vary with different growers but it usually includes straw, used stable bedding, chicken compost, sometimes seed meals, sometimes grape crushing from wineries and assorted additives like gypsum, potash, urea and lime. And granted, these may provide some - not all - of the necessary minerals. But there tends to be a lot of chemical residue as well. Mushroom farmers have major problems with flies and fungus gnats in their growing facilities and are licensed to spray regularly with such products as methoprene, cyromazine and diflubenzuron, Dimlin and Diazanon. There are also fungal infections that can wipe out a mushroom crop and require control by such chemicals as benomyl, thiabendazole and chlorothalonil.

Naturally, if treated with any chemicals or having used any kind of artificial nutrient to create a composting action, mushroom compost will not qualify for use on certified organic farms. Some of these chemicals are what is termed "persistent" in that they do not break down quickly or under microbial action. So you want to be sure that if you are growing organically, you want mushroom compost produced only by certified organic mushroom growers.

Mushroom compost also tends to be heavy in soluble salts, somewhat alkaline and when used on its own (not mixed with real soil or not well aged) can cause difficulties for seeds, seedlings and young plants. Can you tell I'm not wild about it?

Compost that is generated from a wide range of organic material, like good quality homemade compost or municiple compost made from household recycling and yard waste, will have a much broader range of nutrients and likely some higher levels of minerals. But it still does not come close to mineral-based soil.

As to the compaction, that will come. It is inevitable, especially with winter rains. You will experience considerable shrinkage over winter, with as much as half your planting material needing to be replaced.

Pretty much anything can be grown for a single season in any kind of soil mix, provided the plants get what they need. But for long term, consistently good results, which you didn't even realize in season 1, I'd highly recommend you reconsider your soil mix.

The only way you would know if the soil has the nutrients needed to grow the plants you want is to have a good reliable soil test done. You need to know what the soils pH is, between 6.2 and 6.8 and that the P, K, Ca., Mg., etc. are in balance.
Contact your local office of your state universities Cooperative Extension Service for help in having this done.

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA Cooperative Extension

You may very well have a nutrient problem there. From the lack of growth it almost looks like nitrogen deficiency. I don't know for sure how that would happen unless you used a lot of uncomposted browns like wood chips or sawdust. If it's that it should sort itself out by next spring. It wouldn't cost that much to have a soil test though to check pH and other nutrients. If the N test costs more you can skip it, since it's very changeable with seasons anyway.

It could be that the very spongy mix dried out rather fast and the plants struggled to get enough water even though it seemed like it rained often.

I don't think Mel's Mix is worthless, but I too would recommend mixing in some soil. If you don't have any lying around, for beds that size I'd recommend just buying a few bags of topsoil. Not 'garden soil' or potting mix, just topsoil. It varies in quality by region and brand but with all that compost you already have, the combination should be fine.

In case no one has mentioned it, a mix of essentially all organic matter sources will continue to sink down as it decomposes. Mineral soil does not so your beds will not shrink as much.

From the photo it looks like you have a disease along the lines of wilt, which is causing leaves to fall off, but sometimes insects that suck i.e. spider mites or aphids, check the underside of the leaves also cause leaves to fall off. The growth is not strong and healthy. It looks like maybe over watering is possible due to the compost mix not draining fast enough. I would add a lot of large grained sandy, and not any clay and remix and start over.

There could be worms if you were gardening in the soil and not in a raised bin, but I have worms in my raised bins, so I don't know. If you put some garden soil in, it may have worm eggs, but I don't feel worms are needed to have good soil. Some people are really into the idea of worms are turning your garden soil, but they really don't do very much of that. You still have to turn the soil yourself so it does not become compacted over time.

This post was edited by tropical_thought on Mon, Oct 27, 14 at 11:18

I'm sorry to highjack the thread, but apart from the shrinkage issue, what are the problems of planting in pure compost or in a mixture of only organic matters ?

I understand that perennials can't be planted in pure compost, but for seasonal veggies like tomatoes or zucchinis, why not ?

as an example... poplar is the other tree that roots freely ... which is a bit of an understatement.. lol ..

i once set a cut LOG... 12 to 18 inches thick ..... 1o feet long or so ... simply on the garden bed.. as a place to sit..

it continued to sprout for at least 3 to 5 years ... and i had to keep spraying it with round up ...

when it finally.. completely dried.. it died ...

just something for you to think about ...

chipped into fragments ... wood chips ..... there is no sprouting issue ...

willow would be no different ... IMHO

i have no clue.. what will happen if you bury it in manure ... it will either burn it.. or make it more aggressive... lol

ken

Lol Ken, thank you, this is the wrong forum but it was funny anyhow !

Oh, and I'm the right person so... you're not completly mad ;-) I'm the willow woman, that you got right ;-)

I understand that perennials can't be planted in pure compost, but for seasonal veggies like tomatoes or zucchinis, why not ?

They can. As stated previously, on a short term basis, you can grow just about anything in compost, especially single season plants like most veggies. Provided you are using a well-developed compost from a variety of materials, the plants will grow and bear fruit satsfactorily. But they may be lacking in full nutritional value if grown without mineral soils.

But it's pretty much a one time shot. I wouldn't care to repeat the process reusing the same compost the following season. I doubt you would have comparable results.

Part of the reason the garden looks sad now is that we've had a few nights approaching freezing, so it's starting to die off for the winter. But you are correct: the plants didn't grow as large as expected, and while they flowered, most didn't fruit.

It sounds like the consensus is that we need to add soil to both beds, along with the higher-quality, more diverse, homemade compost that we've got in the compost crock pot. We'll try that in the spring and see how it goes.

Al is right there are no never evers, because some compost may be very well finished like for years and have soil mixed in the process of it. But fresh hot compost is a problem for planting things. When one says "compost" it depends on what is in the compost, how long it has cured.

I once tried to short cut. I was lazy. I threw down my compost and planted with out digging it in. The entire bed died at once. Lesson learned. Next time I dug it and no problem that way.

Lack of blooms and fruiting could be a phosphorus problem.

I had a wilty looking garden for a couple years, plants were stunted and produced little. Finally realized tree roots and shade were killing it. Moved the soil to a new raised bed in a sunny spot away from tree roots, and this year that same soil produced incredible growth and production. Since this is a new bed you probably don't have tree root problems. How's the sun exposure? Veggies need about 6 hours of sun per day to do really well.

Don't give up! Trail and error will make you a good gardener if you keep at it. Gardening is challenging. For example tomatoes do need hot sun and I can't grow them here. I get weak growth due to lack of heat and sun.

Lol Ken, thank you, this is the wrong forum but it was funny anyhow

==>>. why is that... you suggested.. burying willow ... i suggest poplar roots as easily as willow ...

and you MIGHT have trouble with your method ... maybe not ??? ... just a variable to think about ... rather than dismissing it outright ....

i was specifically addressing your question ... or so i thought ...

whatever.. i am not offended ... i wish you luck in your adventures.. you sound like you are having a great time... doing it all

ken

I am using Mel's Mix and I love it. I do think it has too much peat so I am now using less peat and more compost. I do use at least five different types of compost in my mix. I also supplement with fertilizer if needed - Plantone or blood meal if I need a nitrogen fix. I have not done it, but there are amendments you can add to the Mel's Mix to get minerals into your mix if a soil test shows that there is a problem.

Mel's Mix is 30 dollars a bag. It must be great stuff. I will stick with buying woody stuff and making my own compost, since wow, I mean if I had to use only that, I would spend so much money.

I make my own Mel's Mix and my own compost. the only expensive thing is the vermiculite.

Tropical,
I don't understand how in San Francisco you don't have enough heat and sun for tomatoes. It seemed to me that there was a perfect weather there for gardening, with the perfect mixture of moderate but quite high temperatures, and the high humidity. But then perhaps it varies with the exact place, whether you're on the coast or in the hills ? Anyway it's a great place to be !

As for fresh hot compost, as I only moved in my place with garden last year, I had no time to get the garden ready for my tomatoes and planted some in hot piles of poop or hot piles of manure in May.

Results : one plant died at once in the manure pile. The Black Krim produced only a few enormous and very tasty toms, the Pink of Bern and Jersey Devil produced many very good toms. But they were all a bit soft, as if overriped.

Those that did best were Stupice and Zebra, red and green, and pumpkins and zucchinis.

But the supports all collapsed because the heaps shrinked, and bermuda grass just overgrew everything.

So at the end it was just a big mess of leaves, grass, and snails and slugs having the party of their lives eating the toms hidden on the ground ! As for the stupice that is quite hardy and rising quite high without help, the green stink bugs enjoyed turning them into cork !

All this was great fun and a good experiment and I'll try to do better next spring thanks to everything I learn here !

ken - you were indeed specifically addressing the question, it's just that this isn't the thread about burying the willow, it's a completely different one. :-]

Thanks Tox, I didn't know how to say it to Ken, I felt clumsy with words. Didn't want to insist as an arrogant pompous french who always wants to be right :-) And it's not that important, after all I got Ken's advice.

In a few years all the lurkers who will read this thread without having read the willow one, will really think we're nuts ;-)

The beds do have good sun exposure. We put them in the sunniest spot in the yard, so they get sun from mid morning till late afternoon.

The tomatoes were about the only thing that did halfway decently. The basil was good too, and the lettuce until it got hot.