Anymore there seems to be an extreme amount of Paranoia in this country over every little thing, and not just about using manure. People are just running scared and it's sad. While I don't put fresh manure right on what I'm growing, (I compost it first), I have added literally tons and tons to my growing areas over the years and continue to add more. I'm with you, more is better and you just can never have enough. I'm fortunate in that I have an endless supply available to me.,

Greg
Southern Nevada

I had a friend over the other day to get some pumpkins and veggies we had been talking gardens all summer as this was his first year and didn't do great he was flabbergasted at the size of the veggies and asked what my secret was I said compost and manure he says but I put on six bags of compost I laugh out loud and explain that I have put approx 20 tons in my 1/4 acre spot in the last 5 years So yeah I say more the better composted is nice because it burns up the weed seeds and makes a nicer amendment than fresh manure Although how ever much one can get is much better than none

I get as much composted horse manure as I can. It IS awfully hot, though!
I'm surprised that you had rabbit poop burn your plants!?!?
The pellet type can be used right in the garden (rabbit, goat, llama, sheep) where as the chicken, horse and cow need to be composted or aged so it doesn't burn the plants.
We live in a horsey type area, so no problem collecting the stuff!

Not all manures are the same (even manures from the same species of animals can vary greatly) and certainly not all composts are the same. The amount to be applied would start with what exactly it is that is being applied.

We have rules in Manitoba about how much manure we can apply to our farm soils based on several factors and it is possible to apply too much.

So if a person wants optimum OM and nutrients, why apply more than necessary? And if there is an optimum, wouldn't one have to know the condition of the soil before application to determine how much to be added?

Then one should consider the non-beneficial aspects of manures, salt and medication residue come to mind, when adding copious amounts.

So it isn't a simple case of "more is better", there are extenuating circumstances that ought to be considered IMO.

Lloyd

..
Doesn't the excess end up in the watershed? What's that polluting the Chesapeake?

If more is more then it shouldn't be a problem to have pig farms and feed lots to just truck the, um, stuff, to the front lawn and we all have happy green grass.

Lloyd hit on it by asking why would you want more than you need. The next question is where does the excess go? If you don't think that's a problem then imagine stepping in it and tracking it into the house. Then imagine where you get your crabs. Imagine why the surfers around here get sick.
..

Some people view concern about disease pathogens in manure as paranoia when it is not. There can be genuine concern without paranoia.
Since the nutrients in manure are more soluble, more readily available unless your soil has adequate levels of organic matter to help hold those nutrients in your soil they can simply wash out and cause pollution. Compost and manure do different things in soils and one is not a substitute for the other.

I have a few horse towns near where I'm at and a few miles past that is cow country (for the time being anyway) so manures are abundant for anyone who wants them.
Working for homeowners is less than 5% of what I do and in spite of that I'll hear the same story from a home owner at least five or six times a year.
"My plants did great the first year. Year number two was pretty good but not quite as good as year number one. It's gotten worse every year and nothing grows now."...or some variation of that.
Sometimes something else is at fault but the majority of the time it's because they've been piling on manure every year since it's free or cheap and they read somewhere that it's great for plants. Of course, analytical results show very high levels salts and boron.
They think they're doing their plants a favor but all the while, they're ratcheting up the salts and boron a little more each year and things get worse and worse until very little will grow. They're shocked every time.
But, as Lloyd points out, the effects of manure will vary depending on a wide variety of things. What type of animals, the animals' diet, composted or uncomposted, soil texture, irrigation, compaction issues, hard pan, water table etc... and then of course, the dose makes the poison.
It sounds like you've had good experience with manure. Hey, cool! I'd say keeping doing what works. But also be aware that what works for you and your situation won't always work for other people and their situations. And also try to remember another good point Lloyd made (Lloyd has a habit of making good points). It's better to shoot for optimum and make some adjustments than intentionally shoot for an excess.

Compost and manure that's tilled into the soil doesn't run off and pollute the Chesapeake Bay. Feed lots and others that have huge piles of the stuff or apply it to the surface without tilling can contribute to the bay problem.

A story about manure... Many years ago we had a garden that was downhill from a neighbor's horse barn and manure pile. A huricane came along and brought torrential rain. Much of the rain ran through the manure pile and into our garden that was in a low area. We had the best garden EVER!! Manure is wonderful stuff and if just a little caution is used it will make for great gardening.

Sandy

Some nutrients can leach if over applied regardless if they are incorporated into the soil or not. It matters not if they are in manure, compost or just organic materials. Over application beyond the crops requirements can be a source of pollution.

Lloyd

Here is a link that might be useful: Manitoba Soil Management Guide

Yes, Lloyd, you are right. Over application of anything is a bad idea from the point of pollution and from cost, both in terms of money and labor. My point (not very well stated I must admit) was that manure incorporated into the soil will not "run off" and pollute that way. It can and does pollute the ground water if there is more applied than the plants can use. Different soils allow this to happen faster than others, sandy soils being the worst offenders. This is the "caution" I was referring to in the previous post. I apologize for the misleading post.

Sandy

One of thee many reasons why it is important for a gardener/farmer to have a good, reliable soil test done periodically on the soil they have.

There is a huge difference in animal species and manure. A few questions to ask, is it straight manure or is there sawdust/straw mixed in. What species is it from. Is it just the "poop" or are you getting the urine also?
I have seen over a foot of cow/pig/horse manure with straw added several years in a row with no detrimental effects. Helps with more than just N/P/K, a lot of organic material loosening the soil.
I have also seen with poultry manure 1" thick burning the soil. Poultry manure is great for N/P/K, but you don't get a lot of organic material to loosen the soil.

One has to truely understand the manure. Take poultry for example. They do not urinate, instead the extra nitrogenous waste comes out as uric acid, the white stuff on top of chicken poop. Why? because when the chick was developing in the egg it had to store the extra nitrogenous waste in the egg before it hatched and it had to be very concentrated, mammals on the otherhand the mother gets rid of the extra waste being passed through the ambilical cord.

Even poultry manure will differ, is it broilers (meat chickens) turkeys or laying hens.
If laying hens were they in cages, if so you are getting all manure, no litter. Free range or floor birds have shavings etc mixed in.
With laying hens you will get an added benifit of high calcium levels since a lot of their diet is calcium (4-5%) Yes a lot is used for egg shell, but some is passed through.

As far as overapplying, farmers typically do not because they do not want to put an extra $10/acre of manure to get an extra $8/acre product. Most will apply so they get the maximum return on investment. For example: The most returns may be by applying 2 ton/acre layer hen manure. They could get increase of yields if they put up to 5 ton/acre but the increase is not enough to pay for the extra manure.

I think it is always best to apply in Fall, giving it some time to mellow, not to say if you are carefull you cannot apply in the Spring or Summer.

One of my favorite products is "Chickity Doo Doo" which I sidedress all summer long.

Sorry this is so long, hopefully you learned something.
Bucky

Sandy saying, "Compost and manure that's tilled into the soil doesn't run off and pollute the Chesapeake Bay. Feed lots and others that have huge piles of the stuff or apply it to the surface without tilling can contribute to the bay problem.
A story about manure... Many years ago we had a garden that was downhill from a neighbor's horse barn and manure pile. A huricane came along and brought torrential rain. Much of the rain ran through the manure pile and into our garden that was in a low area. We had the best garden EVER!! Manure is wonderful stuff and if just a little caution is used it will make for great gardening."

No, of course putting manure on the garden doesn't contaminate the Chesapeake! Gracious, what an idea. I so agree with Greg our Nevada correspondent that paranoia is rampant in this country and very sad when it extends even to gardens, which I suppose is a lot of the basis for the "oh, I'm so afraid of chemicals!!" organic movement. And even small farms, like ours, are regulated for manure storage these days, which in my considered opinion is simply a way to lower unemployment by giving some kids who know nothing state paychecks for useless "work."

Manure fertility, if not the manure itself, does run off down the hill, though, at least a little ways, as was your experience, Sandy: I have a neighbor who has been jealous of my lawn for three decades, and since I live on a farm, you KNOW I don't bother fooling with my lawn! My basic position about lawns is that it needs a garden or orchard there.

The run-off of fertilizer stops at the driveway, though.

nancyjane saying, "I'm surprised that you had rabbit poop burn your plants!?!?
The pellet type can be used right in the garden (rabbit, goat, llama, sheep) where as the chicken, horse and cow need to be composted or aged so it doesn't burn the plants."

Well, it was in those trays that are under the cages, and therefore mixed with a lot of urine. Hey, I was young. [:-)

Yes, when we had a llama I used to shovel the pellets up! He would go just in one place, very odd pattern they have. He was a sheep guard (and it's true, llama geldings are excellent for that) but our sheep just have compacted regular manure like cow manure in the run-in (called Ewe Hall). That's a cool manure and I use it heavily. Great for tilth.

My two concerns are Weeds and Grazone.
In middle america a lot of Farmers use Grazone for weed control. My understanding is it passes safely through the cows but is still in the manure. The effects on Humans is unclear or un-posted, that I can find.
Also since using cow manure my weed rate went sky high. Now I have to cover my ground around plants each year to keep the weeds down, an extra step I never had to worry about. I may try getting manure and composting it for a year by itself then apply it next year to maybe burn off some weed seeds and in hopes any Grazone will be gone. Maybe Kimmsr has more info on Grazone?

I don't worry about chemicals (herbicides --- love 'em), especially not chemicals nobody else is worrying about, but I agree about the weed seeds, berryman: unless you hot compost effectively, which I don't, weed seeds will love your garden. I use sterile landfill compost as a heavy topping to keep down weeds and heavy black plastic for the paths and this works well for me.

That idea in another thread of "solarizing" with black or clear plastic till the sun kills the seeds is very intriguing to me in that context. I want to try that next year.

The tilth and softness of heavily manured soils makes huge and delightful garden vegetables but I can't garden without some way to deal with the weeds.

Some way besides the famous "How to Garden: pull when wet, hoe when dry."

Well, it was in those trays that are under the cages, and therefore mixed with a lot of urine. Hey, I was young. [:-)
Gotcha!

but our sheep just have compacted regular manure like cow manure in the run-in (called Ewe Hall). That's a cool manure and I use it heavily. Great for tilth.
I thought sheep had pellets like goats! It's been a long time! =)

..
The basic premise was: "Manure: more is better. Anyone disagree? Comments?"

I disagree. Over application of fertilizer is over application of fertilizer whether it's made in a chem factory or the back end of some animal.

I keep hearing that phosphates and nitrogens from over application of fertilizers on farms and in sub urbia are polluting our waterways. The local watershed management folks 'round here don't even like the grass clippings on the sidewalk swept in the gutter.

If I had lots of manure I'd be composting lots of hard to digest woody stuff. Since I don't, I don't and newspaper ends up going to the curb side pick up recycling. Composting seems to mitigate so much and it really isn't a lot of effort so why not as long you're composting anyways.

Considering the industrial production of manure out there these days, I don't think anymore needs to be ladled out untreated in generous proportions.

Point taken: different manures & different conditions. Soil conditions 'round here tend to be severe for run-off issues.

two cents
..

Let's do a little exercise. Using Jonas's numbers (because he gave them and his garden is very productive), how thick would an even layer of compost be, applied over his entire garden? Now using a 50% reduction factor of the feedstock, how thick would a similar amount of manure be?

Lloyd

Quarter of an acre - roughly 1000 square metres/
Twenty tons in five years - four tons per year.
I'm guessing one ton is around one cubic metre?
So one cubic metre per 250 square metres.
That comes to about 4mm per square metre per year of compost, so maybe 8mm if it was fresh manure.

By comparison, I spread about 1 cubic metre finished compost over about 30 square meters, which works out at 33 mm depth, and I don't think it's too much...

I found your post quite interesting, Bucky! I see you are also a connaisseur of various manures......

Yes, I agree it matters a lot what kind and condition the manure is. Fresh poultry manure is not the same as aged-in-the-open sheep manure, and I don't used it the same way either. I also use poultry manure as a side-dressing, or did this summer when I had to get rid of a lot of it quickly, and still have quite a bit left, but now I can put it anywhere and let it mellow over winter.

You startled me by saying you have seen people put a whole foot of manure on ground year after year with no ill effects --- I realize I am making the assumption that people are working with shovels and tired muscles as I am, but wow, some people with heavy equipment and a lot of animals have more potential for moving the stuff than I do, I now see.

So there is great unlikelihood I could ever put enough on to do any harm, as I don't have a bulldozer-lifter and if I did, I still couldn't get at the stuff inside barns with it, so shoveling is the limiting factor.

The results seem to me to be the issue. I get huge, huge potatoes and many of them, white and sweet, with what *I* call heavy manure application, and the same with other heavy feeders like corn, nearly everything, really. Roses bloom heavily if I shovel great heaps of manure around them, but it'll never be bulldozer quantities.

So there are two issues here: 1) farmers with farm equipment being able to put a WHOLE lot on, versus the capacity of home gardeners to dress up their beds. 2) Theory versus practice --- I see some posters like to work with numbers and research papers and such; I myself like to work with plants and dirt. If the plants are happy, I'm happy, and the more manure I use, the happier they are.

Neighbors who say, "You aren't putting all that on your garden, are you??" but don't actually garden much or successfully are victims of some theory they read or heard somewhere ---- depending on "research" is just making other people's mistakes, I think. Better to make one's own mistakes. With experience, one makes fewer.

Buckyz: A poultry Phd. once told me that roosters don't excrete the uric acid in their manure like hens do leaving a manure much higher in total N than hen manure, FWIW. If memory serves me correctly, he also said rooster manure is the highest N manure of all animal manures. The hard part is finding straight rooster manure.

A problem phebe is that if people over apply, they may be polluting.

In many jurisdictions, farmers are not allowed to put excessive amounts of manure or fertilizers on to their fields, they are subject to fines if they are caught. Worse yet IMO, if they, or anyone for that matter, are aware that over application may cause serious pollution problems and they still choose to do so without knowing for sure that what they are doing is safe, then they are even worse than those that weren't aware of the issue.

Forums such as this one often propagate misinformation, some of us are trying to tell all readers (responsible gardeners mostly know this already)...

Over application of manures, composts or fertilizers can cause serious pollution under certain conditions.

...if anyone is not aware of this then they had best get some knowledge before applying said materials. The 'net is a wonderful resource but if a person shuns research for some reason, we have Ag offices in Canada to consult with, I assume the U.S. has something similar.

And BTW, you can't 'see' nitrate pollution, it is happening under the soil. It is found through testing the water so a "happy plant" or a wonderful garden is not an indicator.

Lloyd

I talked with a professor at UW-Madison and they said the roosters manure may be a little higher than the pullets just because they are not putting the nutrients back into the egg especially calcium, but what it amounts to is not significant for all practical purposes, They did not confirm the part on the male not producing uric acid, I believe all birds produce the uric acid since it goes back to when they were embryos in the egg.

What nonsense, Lloyd. I'm beginning to think you don't HAVE a garden. You only talk about forbidding regulations, never about your own experiences. Too cold in that foreign country of Manitoba for gardening, I expect. Thank god I don't live there. Cold, no gardens, overregulated by government.

Better to live in Maryland, Ohio, Tennessee, places where one can get decades of experience gardening. I'll ignore your posts from now on and I hope you'll be so kind as to do the same with mine; I don't come her to be exasperated by somebody trying to stop everything successful I do. I'm not interested in a lot of "don't do this, don't do that, get off the planet" type research.

So then phebe, what was the point of this thread and specifically of you asking...

"Anyone disagree? Comments?"

...or are you just looking for people to agree with everything you say even if it is wrong?

Lloyd

P.S. If you think I have never talked about my own experiences, I suggest you might do a little reading first. Here is but one thread that talks about some of the stuff I do, there are hundreds more.

Bucky: It has been about 15 years since I met that Phd.. He brought in a sample to our lab for TKN-N analysis, a sample from his rooster operation. The sample was either composted whole roosters plus their manure or just the manure with no bedding, I can't recall. The TKN-N was very close to 8%, I was amazed!

Another calculation: 20 tons/1/4 A over 5 years = 3/4 lb./sq. ft./yr.. Doesn't sound like much but if I remember correctly form my BMP days that is too much. At any rate, from an organic matter addition standpoint - an acre furrow slice (one acre of soil, appx. 6-7" deep) weighs appx. 20 million lbs. If 20 tons is applied at one to 1/4 A that would raise the %O.M by 0.8%, not exactly a quantum leap.

One note of concern: some crops are particularly salt sensitive, I.E. beans, learned this one the hard way by incorporating a bunch of manure and then planting beans within a few days, not a single one made it, salt injury. Hey, I was young and didn't know any better :)

When I use to work for a large commercial layer farm the barns would be cleaned out once a year (Fall) to be put on farm land that would be corn the following year. This was pure manure, no litter, and it was applied at 1 - 2 ton/acre. I do not have the manure breakdown anymore. This would be a very small dusting, but that was all that was needed with phosphorus being the nutrient they were most concerned with overapplying. Phosphorus seems to be the nutrient environmentalists are most concerned with leaching (not to say excessive Nitrogen can not be problematic also.) In Madison, WI (possibly state wide) I know you cannot put any fertilizer on your lawn with phosphorus unless it is newly seeded or you have soil tests proving you are deficient in it.

Those that support the "more is better" school of thought apparently are not reading current research on pollution where just downstream from fields where heavy doses of manures are applied things such as high concentrations of Phosphorus, Nitrates, E-Coli, Listeria, and Salmonella are being found in both the ground water and surface water streams. If anyone has ever tried to drill a water well in an area with bogs, swamps, fens, nearby and found that water to be "skunky" they will also know that too much organic matter in the soil can adversly affect the water.
It is not so much a matter of being afraid to use "lots of manure" as it is using common sense in the application of that manure and working toward balance of nutrients in the soil. Contrary to what was thought many years ago you cannot bank nutrients in your soil, excess nutrients, nutrients not utilized but fairly readily available to your plants, are simply washed out of the soil with the excess water.

Berryman's concerns about grazon are very valid. I had this problem this year with topsoil amended with dairy cow manure from a farm in Eatonton, GA. (Link below to my posts on this earlier this year.) After a summer of growing, a few of the beds do seem to have recovered somewhat - the ones that were in lots of sun and the soil was fairly uncovered. But I am still seeing the effects of twisted and stunted plants - particularly beans - in the beds I did not replace all the soil in.

I've recently read that this problem of herbicide contaminated manure shows up in commercially bagged manures.

I need to amend my beds again and am trying to find a volume source of compost/soil/organic material that I can be confident does not contain manure that could be contaminated... If anyone has suggestions, I'd welcome ideas.

(Two posts in the thread below - one when I first purchased the soil, then a report of the problems further down.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Manure contaminated with herbicide

Wow, Cindy. Good report on the issue of using manure from commercial operations if they use herbicide. If that's your experience, I take it seriously. I only use our own small-farm manures, which of course aren't contaminated with herbicides, and that never occurred to me. Darn, you'd think it would poison the cows! If it's true dairymen are putting cattle on herbicide-treated land, one wonders about the meat and milk, in fact...........

Very interesting about the possibility of bagged manures being herbicide contaminated!! Boy, that would certainly stop people from using much manure -- they are likely to say, "Oh, we must have used too much and burned our plants!" when in fact they've had an herbicide kill. And that industry product would go dead out of fashion, so the producers had better watch out for that.

To me it seems sort of sad to buy manure in bags --- like buying bagged leaf mould in the old days, but I guess there must be people who do that.

Hi Phebe Greenhouse,

Yeah, talk about mad... I spent forever trying to figure out what could be wrong in my garden! I'm probably overly paranoid now about manure, but short of getting a small amount and mixing with soil, then doing a test plant of bean and tomato seeds, there's not a good way to evaluate it. (Lab tests apparently exist, but they are very expensive.) Also, my experience with this was somewhat spotty in terms of which parts of beds were affected. English peas grew fairly well while the tomato next to them was twisted.

I let a few of these plants grow to maturity and you could see the effects of the herbicide - an eggplant that had huge, beautiful healthy leaves near the ground and curled and twisted puny leaves at top. I started all my own plants, so I'm sure that the plants weren't contaminated from another source.

The dairy farm was non-responsive when I reported the problem. I suspect they continue to sell the contaminated top soil to unsuspecting gardeners. :-(

You're right about the diagnosis problem. If I hadn't talked to the county agent, I'd have never thought of herbicide. I was sure I had some virus as it was the second year of a fairly organic garden and I had quite a few leaf hoppers and other critters that could be spreading it...

I hear you on the sad to buy it in bags... For gardeners just starting out in rural GA - there aren't a lot of resources for "organic" materials. Even the hay has been sprayed...

phebe- I learned to use manure on a small farm too. Mostly cow & horse, but some rabbit. Rabbit is the strongest, then hen,sheep,steer,horse,duck,cow,pig.OG_magazine.
Yes, some people are afraid of manure, not working with it all their life like us. & they have a small garden or small compost pile.
I have cleaned out 6 stables & spread it on the 5 acre field until a ran out of manure, then cut it in.I have a few tons of waste coffee that I am spreading to sheet compost & cut in so it will not cause run off. No, I do not think that will be a problem, but better safe then sorry. It was going to a landfill before I got it, no water pollution there.
I know some things get old, but large dairy s have to watch their compost/manure, because of run off. Well their piles are bigger the some high schools!
Good to hear from the farm.