Over 400 of your favorite roses? Wow, Jim--you ought to be in rose heaven! So how many 100s are you going to order? LOL

Kate

I have had good luck with Hortico this year. At least as far as not receiving mislabeled roses. I have made several orders for sporadic roses throughout the season and they all have been true to variety. On a few occasions the website had them listed when they were actually sold out. But I was informed of this right away and all available roses were shipped out within a reasonable period of time, broke dormancy in a pot, and are all blooming. They do have quite a selection, and as far as my experience goes, I wouldn't hesitate to order if I wanted something. Go for it Jim! : )

Has not had.

I didn't want anyone to think that some how all those roses disappeared and weren't available now.

Unfortunately, Kordes engages in the despicable practice of using the EXACT same name for multiple (but very DISTINCT) roses. Also unfortunately, nursuries supplying Kordes roses (including Hortico) are confused about precisely what they are offering to the public. Case in point: If you order the HT Caramella from Hortico, you are NOT going to get the HT Caramella. What you're going to get is the much more recent shrub by the same name. As for the 3 different Valencias -- well, I'll not go there. Who knows how many other examples there are . . .

Does anyone know when hortico will start shipping - I put in my first order with them this year and what I received was wonderful - no complaints from me at all.

Veelakin,
I didn't know there were three different Valencias out there. How different are they from each other? .
It's on my spring order list, and I was thinking of ordering it from Palatine. Anyone know if they have the "real" Valencia? Thanks
Judith

3 Valencias? I assume Palatine has the one I want. I had one of my roses from Hortico die, and the other two were tiny. Only one has flowered. Hortico does have a great selection, but I'd rather have larger roses that get off to a better start. My Palatine roses, on the other hand, have been huge and grew very well.

I have the 1989 Valencia and the florist rose Valencia released, I think, in 2003 or about. I do not see much difference between the two except that the florist variety - being grafted on fortuniana - blooms more.

Ceterum is correct about the two more recent Valencias. The original rose by that name was released by Kordes in 1967. All 3 of them are very similar in appearance. My assumption is that Valencia '89 constitutes the vast majority of roses now being sold as Valencia. I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from adding Valencia to their garden. It's a rose well worth having.

It's aggravating, though, that Kordes has used names repeatedly for different releases. Also off-putting is the fact that, to a greater degree than most other hybridizers, Kordes remains silent on the lineage of many of their roses. Salient cases in point: The parentage of Valencia '89 and BOTH Caramellas -- all 'undisclosed'.

I can't get too upset with Kordes for reusing a name as it is their own nwme and most often the new one is an improvement on the previous. And many times they add a year to distinguish it from the newer one. Yet it is confusing.

Now as to revealing there parentage, Kordes has usually done that. Perhaps with new roses they have become secretive. But Tantau if you have noticed has a policy of never revealing parentage. I haven't paid attention to other breeders.

In a way you can hardly blame a hybridizer from not telling what he used as it something so easily copied. Well of course you might repeat the cross and never get that same rose again but when you are looking for some trait such as hardiness it might be a clue. And a competitve advantage lost.

Hey Jim, Are you on Kordes' payroll as a paid apologist, or what? ;-) *Something so easily copied....* ---- *competitive advantage lost* !?!?!? Come on, Jim, get real!

Just to show I'm not totally biased toward K and lately T's I checked out some other breeders. Oh by the way the Hortico site is one of the easiest to use that I've found. Gad, I can't find where I wrote it. Well I remember that after Kordes came Meilland with around 200, and Poulsen surprisingly around 180 or so, Austin a very high number considering their newness, 176 and so on. But the high number of K's, probably the most, they have ought to tell us something.

Now I'm expecting my check for K any day now.

Seriously, I've been growing roses here in Upstate NY for 16 years and before that in S. CA for 25. The NY period has been more intense as I'm retired and have more time. And with the great differnce in climate I've needed to try something other than HT's and floribundas that I grew in CA.

I'm partial to Kordes mostly because they have been most successful here. And of course I like them. All 9 of my Austins died so I'm reluctant to spend any more effort on them. I also have been disappointed mostly in the look of Explorers and the one Buck I tried. Now I have several OGR's and am exploring more of them. Since most don't repeat they are less interesting than later roses, like HP's. Ramblers are fascinating because of their vigor and mass display of flowers.

I really have no clue as to why parentage is or isn't disclosed. But in the case of Tantau I'm quite sure it is because of competitive reasons. Doesn't that make sense?

Finally I'm p..... because to me because of my experience with K's that it seems they have been largely ignored and even posters seem to have a bias almost a hatred toward them. I mean being annoyed about the fact that they use some of their names over or a couple of introductions don't have parentage when the vast majority do.

Obviously I'm out there crusading. I'm retired, I've got to have a cause!

Does Hortico grow all of these roses in the field up in Ontario or does someone else grow them?

I have no idea but given their vast selection I wouldn't be surprised if they got some maybe many from other growers.

Possibly someone who lives in the area near them might know that?

I think Lynette indicated that Hortico gets several rose varieties from Europe. Furthermore, quite a number of roses I received from H. seemed to be grafted or rather budded onto something else but multiflora. However, when one asks Hortico about the type of rootstock they usually have no idea about it. I somehow doubt that they could grow all those varieties themselves.

I should add for the sake of fairness that the replacement I got from them this year was very nice, grows, and flowers well. I might be tempted to try to get a few Tantau from them  those roses in the Nostalgie series look and sound very persuasive.

Ceterum

I see according to your Member Page you live in Italy. What zone?

Very likely a warmer zone than mine, 5. If I lived in a warmer zone I would probably be planting many Meilland's as I see they have lot's of what look to be good roses but mostly z6.

That is quite the catalog Horitco has put together. Listing roses by introducer is interesting. Looking beyond Kordes and Tantau, here is the top 11. (always tricky to know where to break such lists knowing the world doesn't necessarily share the interest in lists of numbers that Jim and I have.)

o Kordes 293
o Meilland 212
o Williams, J.B. 207
o Poulsen 194
o Austin, David o 176
o Harkness 107
o Tantau 103
o Delbard 70
o McGredy 70
o Zary 57
o Fryer 49

Interesting list I suppose. Given that it is not what I usually associate with Hortico, I was shocked to see them list 67 roses in their species section, and 22 in their pimpinellifolia section. I do see that many have an availability of "T.B.A. - To Be Available", which means "We are currently sourcing these roses, locating budwood, or attempting to put these varieties back into production". I guess I'll stay tuned.

There is a cautionary note in CRL2007 to the effect that Hortico does not always have the roses listed in their catalogs--online or otherwise. The last couple of years I have ordered in the spring to find that the roses are not available in the following fall or winter. So a little caution about the extent of the roses from x or y might be in order. Again, in fairness, they frequently have roses from Europe or elsewhere not available from any other nursery. Rootstocks are another question. On one occasion the rootstock turned out to be 'Golden Pheasant,' on another, it seemed to be 'Manetti,' but I wasn't sure.

JimD

I have a Manetti too which I think was from them.

Well that is one of the risks involved with them or any supplier.

Given the vast number of roses they handle it isn't surprising that they sometimes ship the wrong rose. But this Spring all were true to what I ordered.

Or that they don't always have the roses listed in stock. That really would be impossible.

When they are the only source what is your choice, forget it or take a chance.

Given the huge number of T.B.A. roses in the catalog, I am disappointed by the lack of any roses by Andre Phùfufnik.

I don't want to belabor the point, but caveat emptor is not a recommendation I would want. But, as you clearly note, if you want their roses, you have to put up with the risk-taking it involves. JimD

I missed reading estevinho's more complete listing. Who is J.B.Williams? In all my browsing of rose books I don't recall seeing his name mentioned that often, at least to have over 200 roses carried by Hortico. He must be Canadian like Joyce Fleming.

Nah. Ben Williams was from Maryland. Listing 207 roses from J. Benjamin Williams is rather staggering. I wouldn't have guessed he had that many introductions. He's the guy who started using the term "Miniflora".

With the exception of 26 roses from Joyce Fleming (only four of which are TBA!) I don't see any Canadian leaning in the Hortico catalog.

I should temper that last statement with 17 roses by George Mander. If some of his roses were easier to find, I might actually try a Hybrid Tea or two.

J. Benjamin Williams died last November at age 93. He was primarily a hybridizer of novelty roses--including stripes and 'coffee colored' roses. News reports indicate he was still working in his garden a week before he died. HMF lists 215 roses that he hybridized, sometimes a rose would just disappear after being offered for a year.

JimD

I've been reading your posts on several occassions, but I never posted myself... so here it goes :). Just for your information - if Hortico is importing their roses from Europe (as many of you stated), they should keep the roses in their fields for at least 2 years before they can sell them to US (or another country). This is supposed to prevent us from getting any disease that may spread through the plants... I hope they follow the proceedures ;) Considering the fact that they sell newly introduced varieties, I really don't think they take the time to test the plants in their fields.

Who knows?

But I'm willing to take a chance. Consider that European breeders are really our only source of good roses. Who are the American breeders that hold a candle to them? Meilland, Harkness, Austin, Poulsen, Lens, Kordes, Tantau, Fryer, McGredy, the list goes on. Who do we have Buck (dead), Boerner (dead), Lammerts (dead), etc. Zary is a name that pops up but who else is there?

Then there is the concern by those rose growers that they do not want to introduce any disease here as it would seriously affect their business.

The one european disease I would NOT want in my garden is associated with rose roots (and other plants in Rosaceae) and it's rose replant disease which European scientists study and report on. On this side of the Atlantic we may not believe it exists, but over there it's documented in juried scientific literature.

A recent discussion on Rose Hybdizers forum unearthed the Tantau roses offered by Monrovia, the mega-plant-producers in California.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tantau roses from Monrovia

jim w ny;

I just wanted to warn you, that whatever H does with the european roses seems to be illegal (I used to work for CFIA for some time) and if they get cought once doing it, it may mean loosing their right to export roses out of the country...etc.

If true, about the disease thing, it would be great pity. Why because roses from European breeders are far superior to our own hybridizers. Just my opinion based on personal experience. Now Tanau roses are new for me just bought three this spring. Cupshaped writes that they for her are superior to K's.

And I wonder if Kordes would export a rose with disease as I have great respect for them. Now Hortico is another story. Maybe I'll stick with Pickering and maybe Palatin who I've not tried yet.

I don't think that H is getting those roses straight from Kordes. They probably import them from european nurseries, at least that was my understanding after I spoke with one of Hortico's employees last spring. Who knows... I had the impression that most of the roses Hortico carries are grown elsewhere (not H's fields) as the employee couldn't even tell me what understock was used. The quality of the roses is not the same for different varieties and they seem to be getting them from various places.

I wish there were another source for the newest Tantau roses. I really want minimum 3 of them. Alas, not even Hortico offers all of them.

A couple of posters warned about rose replant disease. (Domestic vs imported roses).I didn't think of it at the time but that seems very unlikely as most of our OGR's came from Europe. And consider the very popular Austin's of recent origin. Not to mention other popular HT's like Oregold (A Tantau rose with a very long name) or even a much older import Crimson Glory, Kordes 1935. There are many, many more.

Still buying from Hortico does pose some risks, namely getting the wrong rose. Which has happened to me more than once. But they are getting much better at addressing that problem. This year they said they would replace some roses, mistakes or roses that didn't grow, just like that.

Considering the huge number of roses they sell it must be a major problem keeping them all straight.

Some commercial growers of European roses import budwood, not bare root roses. The danger of soil borne pests are thus greatly reduced. The growers also comply with import restrictions. If you read some of the rose books from the very early 1900s that are available on google books now, you'll see that the number of roses imported was tiny, compared to the massed production of today. The early American Rose Annuals have some numbers.
Other importers keep the roses in strict quaranteen as must individuals who import.

If a rose supplier were to buy bare root roses from other producers for immediate resale (which might explain why some roses are sent out in fall, others in spring) there is no way in heck that the rose supplier would know if the roses they are reselling are true to name or not. They would be dependent on the care taken by the original grower as well as tag loss/loosening in transport.

I do know that for at least five years the Cressidas sold by Hortico weren't Cressidas but included at least two other roses.

"I am disappointed by the lack of any roses by Andre Phùfufnik"

Oh man -- me too!!! The greatest rose hybridizer of the 20th c next to LeGrice.