This next one is a lot tougher, since I didn't get a good picture. It's at the Maryland Zoo.

It looks like a very small Acer saccharum, but the samaras aren't quite the same, they're a wider angle. They're tough to see in the pic...but here goes.

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Thanks!

On the second one, peel a leaf off and see if a white substance secretes from the leaf stem/petiole. I think it is a Norway maple.

The first ID may be Caddo maples or young Legacy sugar maples

John

The second one is def. not a Norway. I did the bleed test and no white stuff came out. Besides the bark and samaras aren't right. I was thinking A. barbatum maybe?

The others could be Legacy...that makes sense. Caddos are too hard to find around here to be that widely planted.

Most of the saccharums around here are Green Mountain, plus I've seen a few probably "seedling" grown trees. The others look like the ones above. Legacy would make sense since most nurseries carry it around here, along with Commemoration, Green Mountain, and, increasingly, Fall Fiesta.

Off the cuff, it reminds me of the Norway / Shatung hybrids.

Hair,
The first tree your discription fits Commemoration Sugar Maple, though ours turns bright orange to red orange in fall. It is also starts early as indicated in the patent.

Arktrees

Ark,

Thinking back to last fall, these trees colored later than the Green Mountains, but earlier that the species sugar maple in the first pic above.

That would be what I see locally with our Commeoration, though there are lots of variation with the seed trees. I can say this, the trees locally that I believe to be Legacy are late to color. Maybe others see Legacy differently. The ones I believe to be Green Mountain are about the earliest to color. Our Commemoration is growing wide at least as fast as tall, and though much smaller than the trees in your pics, basically round in shape. Another significant characteristic of Commemoration is that the color has been relatively long lasting. Our Fall Fiesta has been an upright oval, though this year is rounded out more than previously. For our tree as least, color has been much shorter lived than for the Commemoration. FWIW, the Fall Fiesta is growing faster than our Commemoration.

Arktrees

Thanks, Ark.

I thought it might be Fall Fiesta too, but then realized it's too recent of an introduction for trees that large to exist yet. Also from what I see online, the leaves are more deeply cut, and a bit larger, than the one above.

I'm thinking it's got to be either Legacy or Commemoration. I seem to remember they peaked in color about 10/30 last year while the Green Mountains were a week to 10 days earlier.

The seedling tree in my neighborhood (in the pics above) turns a straight golden yellow around the first week of November. It's a pretty big tree, probably 65' tall.

There aren't really any true "wild" Sugars around here, but plenty are planted including many probably seed-grown.

I know that out around Frederick, MD, and up north in Harford County, I have seen a lot more in the wild, so I'm guessing the native range ends somewhere between here and there. The range line goes through the middle of MD on most maps in a SW to NE fashion.

The 3rd pic almost looks like Bigleaf maple (A. macrophyllum) of the west coast -- tho that seems improbable. Sugar maple has quite a bit of genetic variability. Crossing w/Black maple causes more confusion.

hairmetal, Washington Co MD has almost no wild Sugar maple stands in the valleys (just the mountains), but are common and invasive at low elevations just to the west here in Allegany CO. Garett Co is of course a Sugar maple haven.

beng,
You are not using the term invasive correctly. Any plant that is within it's native range can not be invasive by definition.

Arktrees

It definitely prefers higher elevations in the more southerly parts of its range. There are lots in Tennessee in the Smokies, for example.

I have seen them around Frederick but at the higher elevations, and of course planted all over. I seem to recall a few scattered Saccharums along I-95 in northern Harford and Cecil counties that appear to be wild as well even in that fairly low-elevation area.

The leaf in the 3rd pic is WAY too small for A. macrophyllum unless it fails to live up to its "Bigleaf" name.

What about a Chalk Maple? I've never seen one of those in person...but it somewhat looks like it.

Not Chalk IMHO. Chalk Maple is greatly neglected, and so almost certainly not planted. But all you would have to do is look at the bark if you have any doubt.

Arktrees

Hey Ark - I read today that 'Commemoration' and 'Legacy' are actually thought to be of more or less the same seed provenance.

I guess it would make sense. Both are known for heat tolerance and tatter-resistant leaves. I'd guess a more southern/western (but not Caddo) provenance.

Indiana IIRC. Look up the patents on Google Patent Search if you would like to know more. Even then, while better, no doubt improvement could be had by going to the far west and southwest of the native range. Sugar Maple is native here locally (even though the range maps often show them not to be), and are undoubtedly more heat and drought resistant than those of say New York state. BTW, Hyawaitha is from the far western edge of the native range. Perhaps John could chime in on that one.

Arktrees

I actually went out last night and visually compared both Commemoration and Legacy. They are actually very similar in leaf shape. They are too young to compare growth habit. Caddo maple leaves are also similar but with some differences. Hiawatha has classic large sugar maple leaf that comes to my mind when I think of sugar maples. Hiawatha has been a stellar performer so far in my yard and has larger samaras than any sugar maple I have seen as well as being the most vigorous clone I have so far. Nice orangey red fall color, too. I believe all are only in their first or second growing season, however so I'm sure things will change around the next few years.

I will try to post some comparison pics of each in this topic for you to look at over the weekend, hair. I love taking pics of trees so if you have a special request, I can probably accomidate =)

I also have a chalk maple but the leaves on mine don't look remotely like the ones in your pics.

My sugar maples include:

John Pair
Autumn Splendor
Commemoration
Legacy
Sandersville aka Harvest Moon
Hiawatha aka Oregon Trail
Species seedling
Mexican sugar maple Acer skutchii

John

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Fri, Jun 28, 13 at 9:54

Hiawatha/Oregon Trail is an interesting one. I can't find it anywhere but ForestFarm, however.

So it's vigorous? Would you say faster growing than Commemoration or Fall Fiesta?

There's a third cultivar of Caddo out there too (besides John Pair & Autumn Splendor), called Flashfire...does anyone have experience w/that one?

And yes, I'd love some pics, John.

"There's a third cultivar of Caddo out there too (besides John Pair & Autumn Splendor), called Flashfire...does anyone have experience w/that one?"

I would love to have one but haven't seen one locally. There is a member here Mattm01 that has one. I linked to his master post below.

I found the Hiawatha (or did Arktrees find it for me?) at a local nursery and took it home. I bought the John Pair at the same time. The Hiawatha was in a huge pot and the roots were already really spread out. I didn't have to prune a single root for girdling/circling. It took off that first spring like nothing had happened to it. Now let me clarify vigorous in this particular case. The leaves are humongous but the stem growth is in the 8-10" range.

The John Pair on the other hand had spent a little too long in too small of a pot and needed some work. It just breaks bud with small/medium size leaves with no shoot elongation. It did flower this year, though, and I need to check it for samaras. I hope it finishes recovering below ground this year.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Holy Grail of plants for Texas

8 - 10" of growth the year of transplanting, with large leaves isn't that bad. When did you plant it (the Hiawatha), 2012?

Although at that rate I'd be an old man before I could sit in a chair under it...haha.

I've heard several comment that John Pair, although gorgeous, is painfully slow growing, however, much slower than most Sugar Maples.

What really fascinates me is the genetics of it all.

You have the "standard" Northeastern sugar maple. Then you have black maple, similar, also "full sized" but with a range shifted just a bit west, that is also thought to be a tad more heat/drought/alkaline tolerant than standard A. saccharum, but only slightly.

Then you have the Acer leucoderme and Acer barbatum/floridanum (Southern Sugar/Florida Maple), both smaller, more heat tolerant, less cold hardy.

Then Acer gradidentatum (sp?), the Bigtooth Maple. Cold hardy, but more tolerant to hot/dry, also small growing.

Then of course, the newly "discovered" (by us tree geeks) Mexican Sugar Maple, Acer skutchii .

I'm pretty sure the Caddo maples have some genetics that is closer to either the Bigtooth or one of the 2 small Southeastern sugar maples (Chalk or Florida) that gives them their edge and smaller size. Most of the other common cultivars that do well in hotter areas (Commemoration, Legacy, Green Mountain, etc) probably have some Black Maple characteristics, even in the smaller, leatherier leaves. Although they don't have the "droopy" quality true Acer nigrum does.

The thing is, some call them all different species, but they're really a continuum of sorts...I'd presume all the above can easily hybridize with each other.

FWIW I'd love to see someone do some intentional hybridization of the above.

FWIW, according to this page, both Legacy and Commemoration were patented by Willet N. Wandell of Illinois - filed 1981, patents approved 1983. They're probably from the same seedling lot from what I can see.

Here is a link that might be useful: Patent Fish

Oh - John - how is the Sandersville/Harvest Moon doing??

Illinois.... Indiana....... What's the difference.... they all talk funny and look the same anyway....

Just joking everyone ;-)

Yes hair, both could have easily been in a block of seedlings and he picked the two that he liked best, that happen to graft easily, and grew a bit faster. It can easily be that arbitrary.

Arktrees

I planted the Hiawatha in fall of 2011 just after it had gone dormant. I checked the new growth out today and it only put out about 6" on most side branches and 8" on the vertical growing leaders. Also, the samaras are now not too much larger than the Commemoration samaras. I am thinking the size discrepancy is due to the Hiawatha only having a dozen or so fruit while the Commemoration had a bumper crop.

In your list of all the closely related North American sugar maples, don't forget Acer skutchii ;-)

I planted the Sandersville last fall. The upper growing tips grew about 4-5" while a vigorous branch low on the trunk grew about 2'. I am going to cut that one this fall. The vigorous shoot is already in position to rub on higher branches because it grew almost straight up. I need to give it a couple more years before I can report reliable growth info. I planted both the Sandersville and a Legacy on the west side of my house for shade in the future.

Now for some pics =)

John Pair - Looking at previous growth, it was going well over a foot/year or foot/flush in the container. Planted fall of 2011

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Autumn Splendor - Previous growth in over 2'/year in the field. Planted fall of 2011.

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Hiawatha - Previous growth looks to have been in the 1-2'/year in the container. Planted fall of 2011

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Sandersville - as claimed appeared to grow 4'+ last year before being topped and then pushing out another 6". Planted fall of 2012

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Legacy - appeared to grow ~2' last year. Planted fall of 2012

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Commemoration - appears to have grown {{gwi:380315}}

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IMO Legacy, Commemoration, and the caddo maples John Pair and Autumn Splendor all have similar leaf shape. Biggest differences are Autumn Splendor and Legacy have very dark green leaves while John Pair and Commemoration have a lighter green leaf. I don't know if this a nutrient deficiency or not.

I put the pics up for your comparison. If you feel it is clogging up your topic, please let me know and I will delete any and all pics you don't want in here. I will also take individual leaf pics of Legacy and Commemoration against a white background tomorrow.

Edit: After posting this and comparing to your solitary leaf pic, I'm not sure any of them are a perfect match where leaf shape is concerned =/

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Fri, Jun 28, 13 at 22:43

John,
Our Commemoration after the first growing season has always been intensely green, though it does fade some later in the summer. May be lacking nitrogen at least. Might try the compost we talked about to address potential nutrient problems other than nitrogen. As for growth, ours has grown 12"-15"/yr in good years. But its site stays wetter in winter than I would like so I can't swear that is it's true potential.

Also great pics. The Autumn Splendor seems to be recovering nicely.

Arktrees

I'm still leaning Legacy...but they're a tad different.

As a side note, I've seen Sandersville called an Acer barbatum or barbatum x saccharum hybrid. I suppose it would make sense, but the original tree would be quite large for a barbatum IIRC.

Ark,

A lot of the sugar maples around here start fading to a lighter green right about this time of year...however, it's mostly those that are either street trees or near pavement that do it the worst.

I think it's a stress or nutrient issue, hence it happening more for those near the street. Or possibly soil compaction or latent road salt damage. We haven't had enough snow for major salt usage since 2009/2010 but salt buildup can take a while to show its effects.

Commemoration on the left; Legacy on the right.

Commemoration appears to have more deeply lobed leaves. Legacy seems to have proportionally larger middle lobe than Commemoration.

That Hiawatha is a nice looking tree. Love those big leaves.

I haven't seen it locally, but even most bigger nurseries only carry sugar maple seedling, plus Green Mtn, Legacy, and Commemoration. I've started seeing Fall Fiesta pop up.

Buying a seedgrown makes me nervous, unless I could know the seed provenance. Most hired hands at a nursery have no idea...

If it was from TN (where a lot of tree seeds seem to be sourced) that would probably work. If something like MI or VT probably not.

I was back today at the same store/plaza where I saw these trees. Got a better pic:

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Apparently they have scraped the mulch to bare ground. Not sure why.

Hair,

My Legacy sugar maple (just planted this spring) has leaves very similar to the ones you originally posted, although smaller, but that's probably due to transplant stress. I'd go with Legacy...but I've never seen a Commemoration up close.

So today, I was back at that same shopping center. These sugar maples are showing small hints of fall color:

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Driving to work today there is a large Nyssa sylvatica, growing alone among a bunch of Quercus alba off the side of the road, that is DEEP crimson right now.