It's easy to see SGS variations in calligraphy, but in my mind any similar connections to nihon teien are spurious at best. Gardens are too complicated, with many elements and much variation. You can't "rubber stamp" a garden like those SGS theorists propose.

Bill ---

Shin-gyo-so is just an idea, and to me it's interesting. It's interesting that people thought of it and it's interesting to try to see what they meant by it. Learning about it helps deepen my understanding of what some people were thinking when they created and commented on some Japanese gardens (and other Japanese art forms).

I'm not sure who you mean when you refer to "those SGS theorists." Do you mean the author of the doctoral dissertation, the writers of the 1395 text, the people who popularized SGS during the Edo period, or someone else?

As I've said before, I wouldn't choose to use SGS as a garden design tool. It's just interesting historically, plus there actually ARE people actively using it in Japan today.

Lee

Interesting also that folks like Samuel Newscom and Josiah Conder thought it interesting enough to make long studied note of it, but Bill does not...

Interseting that it is of much import to older gardens, and of little consequence to Meiji and modern gardens. I know a magazine that thinks JUST like that...

After having seen its effectiveness in almost all areas, i've come to use it with everything. It covers everything from language to answering how much to maintain a tree or shrub.
The more finish or extra fine pruning is added to a tree, the more people are oriented and drawn toward it, the 'wilder' or more 'so' a tree is, the more people tend to ignore it and consider it part of the backdrop or pass right by it.
the Shin gyo so, sequence tells you when to stop pruning, and what techniques should even be applied.
It will also answer the question of what 'natural mix' of stones to use in a walkway, and derive a percentage of which, what where, should be manmade.
Look at any photograph of current gardens and note the mix of natural and manmade, and the gyo of that situation is immediately apparent, if it is too loud, it needs more so, if it is too quiet then it needs more finish. The objective is to strike a balance of not being too loud, and not being forgotten if it should be remembered...
very important tool, used daily, everywhere. If I were learning apprpriately from the Vancouver gardeners Association, I'd be using it even more, right through to languages and presentation techniques.
In so much as global acceptance is concerned the techniques has many names, inclusive of wayfinding, locators, etc. in the urban design pantheon.
i would not underestimate this simple jewel of a technique.
edzard

Does it suggest a design continuum represented as a line with 2 open ends: SHIN at one side and SO at the other, as a closed circle with 3 points, a open "circle" or something else ?
The first part of LeeÂs post suggests that we can draw a straight line, because the number of stones increasing/decreasing dependent on which way you look at, but the last sentences are toughÂ.especially because it refers to "moving/working backwards" (?) and that the started situation is different from the finish. It looks to me like a figure whose start and end points are not the same point, yet they approaching each others, something like a open "circle" (??)
Btw, Edzard told us in another thread that he sees the straight line design continuum, as he discussed there also the same design continuum Slawson talked about:
Featrure-oriented ----------------------------------------------- Quality-oriented
SHIN ----------------- GYO ------------------ SO

Is it the purpose to go from SHIN to SO via GYO ?
Lee wrotes:
---"SGS in Japanese gardens consists in reducing the number of stones",
---"SHIN is described as a situation where you start with something called [A], ÂÂÂÂ., except that now it has become a completely different thing, so they call it [A~]".

Ron ---

Is it possible SGS meant different things at different points in history? It also seems to mean different things in different arts. I'm confused, anyway.

The doctoral dissertation I quoted talks about SGS in the 1395 gardening manual, where the author says it consists pretty much solely in reducing the number and type of stones used.

This is different from the SGS Marc Keane talks about in his book "Japanese Garden Design," where "highly controlled" materials are Shin and natural materials are So and a mixture of the two is Gyo. In that case, there is a continuum from Shin to Gyo to So. Marc Keane also mentions the rigid Edo period classification of gardens themselves as Shin, Gyo or So.

But getting back to the doctoral dissertation, its general conclusions about what Shin, Gyo and So are seem like something different, especially Gyo, which brings in metaphor and allegory to suggest something which is NOT part of Shin. The example talks about Noh drama and the author says the Gyo dance brings in dance moves which are not part of the Shin dance at all. The author says "Gyo is something different from Shin in terms of structure and form. In the case of Noh drama, for example, dances which are not part of the basic form are incorporated."

This seems to contrast with the other model of SGS where Shin includes everything, Gyo leaves more up to the imagination and So is quite abstract. That is a "continuum" model. Same thing with the Marc Keane model (manmade-to-natural continuum).

I've got to read the whole article more carefully. The more I look at it the more confused I get!

Lee

Ron,..
very, very astute..... hmm, my, my, :), and why are you studying this??

-'so' the rustic, was considered the higher sense of accomplishment, for many historic reasons, the main perhaps being the need to speak without speaking directly about a given subject, while inflecting many optional meanings and trolling for responses.

If I had to draw a picture of 'sgs', then I would draw you an elastic sphere, with the '----' that you are observing/adjusting as an anchor.

In the next phase of resolution, within the sphere draw a geometric form, still multi-solutioned, each main variant an endpoint to the anchor of the 'article, nuance, object,'
(whether rhomboidal, tetrathedric, shape within shape, etc.)
(research - side note on Hideyoshi's fascination with geometric shapes and their linking points.)
--which in the end, the easiest to understand diagram and the simplist result is a straight line with gyo as a slider.

The opportunities of gyo are incredibly infinite and multiplied by the nuances of ie: yugen, aware, etc., never minding form, color, texture, scent and so on.
-how many shades of paint are there?
3 primaries, endless coloration. ? which color is which?
--- triangle circle square, more research...
edzard

Lee, thanks for finger pointing the realistic possibilities about different meanings in different times. I expect besides this posibility that ONE concept that seems to be applied at different artforms like writing, poetry, ikebana, Noh, tea, gardening, bonsai, en so forth, must be very highly abstract and high level to still fit in the several platforms. Another possibility is that there are, as you say, several major or minor differences between platforms or even in one platform during different times. LetÂs keep all posibilities open by now.

Anyway, IÂm glad IÂm not the only one confused by it. So, we keep on searching and studying. Why study it ? Because IÂm interested in JG and Bonsai in the first place, and the Japanese culture in common. IÂm not professionally busy in the field.

Edzard, this was what you typed about SGS in the thread "Evolution of Japanese Garden" initiated by me:
"By example, people are uncertain of 'wild nature', and to increase the comfort of people, more manmade techniques are applied, if the space is man made - then more 'wild nature' is applied until a level of comfort is found. (levels of gyo)
feature oriented/shin.................quality oriented/so
gyo moves back and forth to the right balance to soothe or 'attune' the clients needs, for feature or quality, and the definition of 'quality' needs now to be defined, Â."

IÂll look up what John Naka wrote in Bonsai Techniques about SGS.

Ron.. thank you for refreshing my lagging memory,
here is the latest version as well...
"--which in the end, the easiest to understand diagram and the simplist result is a straight line with gyo as a slider."
and combining the two..
"feature oriented/shin.................quality oriented/so"

help me out.. what are you trying to say?
(very puzzled, I can only presume that you are drawing attention to the fact that on one post I have responded with a simplified slider version and that in the specific 'shin, gyo, so', thread, I have gone into greater detail indicating a sphere, which in the solution process simplifies to a slider.....
I would comment that, as people have remonstarted me time and again for presenting too complex of concepts and or, with far too much detail, that until gretaer detail is asked for or needed, I no longer go into details that bore people -such as Herb and so on)

my reason for asking why the interest was that if you were researching, papers etc., that I would offer other research streams, such as Hideyoshi's geometric addiction and the Buddhist/zen triangle circle square color iconography with Sesshu's work that ties it back to Chinese painting. Which ties it to ikebana, which ties it to bonsai (formal, inf/slanting, reclining)... -which I did.
??, please clarify your point, as 'sgs' has been a study point for more than a decade.
edzard

I have to say that this glides way above my head and I can't even feel the wind. Is there a simpletons equivelant, or even a layman's? I know that some way of measuring rice fields was important for taxation purposes and that their may have been creative ways around this but how does this relate to making a Japanese garden in soon to be 2006?

Hi all.
It is intresting posting. I will find moer about it and post later.
Scott: I will see you at New England grow show .

Edzard : put your partner sleep first, I will call you soon. I can explain most of questions you have had in the past about stone lanteran such as kozama, hoju, motifs in the kozama. It took me few years to find it.

Lee: I will see you at New England grow show. Please contact to Cady.

Christian : many thanks to you . Lets make tripod ladders. I will see you soon.

Rick in New york : I will contatct to you after mid Jan . I don't have own computer yet . talk to you soon.

Happy and safe, prosper holidays to all.

mike

Holy ****, Yama-Sensei is back!!!!!

See, I was good this year!!!!!

Michael

Hello Mike---

we all missed you, mentioned your name here.
What about my diner invitation ?

Andrea

I quotes from the book of John Naka "Bonsai Techniques II":

There are 3 types of bonsai display. SHIN is very formal, GYO is informal and SO is flexible and casual. Examples of the tokonoma displays:

SHIN: a conifer bonsai with a scroll or a suiseki. The tree must be a single straight trunk, slanted trunk or a Moyogi style trunk.

GYO: Mostly a deciduous tree such as elm, maple, etc. and kusamono, a weed or grass as complementary plant or suiseki or some other accessory, such as a figure of a bird or other animal.

SO: Very flexible and casual. Bamboo, reed, palm or other plants, such as rush, grass or wildflowers are displayed with suiseki

What can we learn from this ?
At the first sight, it seems that a conifer is considered more formal than a decididuous tree. The formal forms are those with little or straight movement in the trunk.

The concept of Shin-Gyo-So is sometimes a bit difficult to grasp (still working on it) as it can signify a continuum (kyudo comes to mind) or some analog of black-grey-white/formal-semi formal- informal.

Perhaps in this case (as it pertains to Noh) what if we run with harmony/disharmony for SO and Shin and to blow your minds harmony within disharmony for Gyo.

Anyone think of examples????

What if we think of it in terms of symmetry (or lack thereof) More examples come to mind????

Could one design a path that at the beginning is formal, not in harmony, and symmetrical and end informally with a lack of symmetry in harmony???

In harmony with what??? The forest??? Or with your hot tub???

Makes you think as a minimum...........

Michael

Ooops...the last post was for you Inky....give you something to chew on as you create in 2006.

Michael

My understanding was always as a measure of formality. While certainly formal gardens are likely to have more features in general, the temple garden often had few featrues and still is very shin (think Ryoan-ji). Not sure you should really do a shin tea garden; I like the Rikyu inspired simplicity and narrow focus of the roji. I don't think of it as a measure of stuff, more about feel for me...just an opinion...

Scott

"Shin-gyo-so: Formal, semi-formal, informal; a ranking system first applied to design styles by the tea masters of the medieval period."

"Japanese Garden Design"
MPK

Uh oh, old stuff...

Scott,

I believe that SGS is much older than the medieval period. I believe the description Lee gave at the beginning of this thread:

"Shin Gyo So Â^ÂsÂÂÂ@originally referred to three styles of writing Chinese characters, and it originated in China. It developed over the course of time stretching from 1350 B.C. to 700 A.D. (early TÂfang era). "

Two new versions to inquiry SGS:

Teiji Ito said the concept is needed to allow totally different styles "live in peace" side by side to each other.

Wybe Kuitert assumed the triplet may have its roots in the 15e century SANSUI NARABINI YAKEIZU first 3 drawings [p137]. Furthermore, this devision in formallity of the Edo manuals "..was also clearly connected to social standards and behaviour. The SHIN mode is particularly used in the design of the gardens of the military class for instance"

SGS in Saga Goryu ikebana has all the above interpretations, another way that we are taught is to think of Shin as standing, gyo- walking and So as running. So looking at styles of SGS encouraging us to reflect on the nature of nature.
david