my shumard oak that i planted in april is dead/dying. another post from someone in TX reported a dying young shumard recently too. mine didn't get the little spots on the back but all the leaves are now brown. i've been thinking that the guy that cut my grass sprayed roundup around the base to kill the grass growing around it, but maybe i'm wrong and there's something going on with shumards??

I don't think anything is "going on" with them. As long as they are adapted to your area(seed provenance), they are not root bound and planted correctly.

your spots on leaves probably means there's a problem from a bug or fungus etc. try googling Black leaf scorch and see if that fits.

Bacterial leaf scorch isn't down in the OP's area yet.

Surely transplant shock with environmental factors and hopefully they were planted correctly.

Dan

Today about half of the leaves on the pale tree have started turning brown. Almost double what was there yesterday. The other tree still looks the same.

Since the ground is clay and we have had a lot of rain over the last few weeks could this be a case of the tree being water logged?

Is there anything else I need to look for?

^ yeah.
Too much or too little water can kill a transplant.

I'm inclined to think it's probably the latter tho. What has your watering regimen been like and have you used any fertilizer, root stimulator, or miracle gro? Have you added anything to the soil? How wide was teh pots the trees came in and how wide was your planting hole?

If the tree survives the summer, it'll look nice all butchered up to keep off the overhead wires.

Nonetheless, there is some lf spot on the lvs combined with some sort of environmental stress. Any chance of a quality pic of the bole where it meets the ground?

Dan

This tree is not near any over head power lines. The power lines are about 30ft west of the tree.

Anyway, more leaves are turning brown. None have fallen of though. They are not dry yet either.

I don't remember the exact size of the pots but I think they were 40" wide and 30" deep. The hole was about a foot deeper and 2 feet wider.

In April while the weather was dry I was giving each tree two gallons of water a day through a 1.5 inch pvc pipe with .25 inch drain holes drilled in it. The pipes are directly behind the root ball on the edge of the hole. In May and June it's been so rainy I have not watered them. The only fertilizer was put on the grass during the spring. Nothing directly on the tree. The nursery said they would not need any this year.

I'll try to get some better pics tomorrow.

Would it hurt anything if I dug down next to the edge of the hole and checked the soil?

I'm inclined to think it just wasn't enough water or not getting to the right place. The root ball really needed more like 20 gallons instead of 2 gallons. You need to keep the whole rootball moist too. If your doohickey was used at teh edge, water may not have dispersed evenly.

Backing up and looking at the facts, as stated:
"The trees get mid day to late evening sun." [half day to dry things out and supply oxygen to the roots]
"The ground is thick clay and we have had a very wet May and June." [slow to dry anyway and repeatedly, unfortuanately, DAILY watered - daily = "oxygen stressed"]
Picture appears as (NOT guarantees) either oak anthracnose or overwatering appearance.
My tendency is to go with Dan Staley's environmental factors.
The first thought is the likelyhood of overwatering. It would be good to also check the depth of the root flare by gently probing the area adjacent to the trunk with a long, slender screwdriver. If the flare is more than a couple of inches deep, it can add to the lack of oxygen problem in clay. If there is mulch around the tree and you find the soil wet or gooey, pull the mulch back to the outside of the planting ring. When the soil dries on the surface, break the crust that forms on the clay by cultivating and breaking the soil surface to allow more oxygen to penetrate to the roots.
If it is anthracnose, clean up all eventually falling leaves and dispose of them; do not compost them.
There are other oak maladies that can occur, but these are two of the most common.
hortster

The additional fact that it was planted improperly and likely has settled leads one to believe the root collar is below grade, which is trouble in wet years.

Without additional pix, and with the info provided, the tree is suffering from decreased vigor from environmental stress and possibly improper planting, which is allowing pathogens to attack. And 30' will be reached by the tree in ~a human generation.

Dan

Well, I raked away all the mulch. It was wet underneath. I lifted the root ball which was damp but not overly wet. Maybe the mulch was diverting the rain water?

Anyway, I found the trees had settled a bit so I put fresh topsoil under them and raised them back to ground level. The flare is now slightly above ground. Watered both for awhile. I'll check them later today. The sick tree also had several wasps in it if that matters.

Can Shumard's get too much water?

Do trees actually need mulch?

How long should I wait before letting the grass grow up to the trunk?

Thanks for the help so far.

The sick tree has very few green leaves left. The brown leaves are dry but have not fallen yet.

I watered the tree around 7am today and the hole the tree is in is still wet. Looks like it is holding water.

More pics from this afternoon.

http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d118/gotrektheslayer/sick%20tree/

Here's your photo so folks don't have to be clicking everywhere-

{{gwi:377131}}

As I said on the other site I still think it is planted too deeply.
Between that and the lack of drainage it is suffocating.

Yup. Too deep. Too little O2 in soil.

Dan

It was still moist today when I got home from work.

That is the top of the root ball as it came out of the pot. Maybe it was too root bound?

BTW, the rebar is marking the edge of the root ball.

Is there any chance I can save it now that the vast majority of the leaves are brown?

The "top of the rootball as it came out of the pot" means nothing- maybe it was planted too deeply in the pot as well.

Here's your tree

{{gwi:377131}}

Here's a tree showing proper root flare above the ground

{{gwi:377132}}

There is a marked difference.

It is likely too late since your clay soil and the bath tub effect are drowning it, but for future reference always get in there with your fingers and uncover where the true planting depth is. Never trust the health of your trees to whomever planted it in the pot.

Please read the article at the link I have provided below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Planting depth info

Above it was already explained that the tree was planted improperly - the hole was dug too deeply and the root ball settled. Very common mistake. Now that it has been lifted, it is just as if it was planted yesterday - in Texas June heat in waterlogged clay. Hopefully the tree makes it.

Dan

I pulled back some of the thickly matted small roots that are on top of the ball. The flare is under those. Maybe I didn't do too much damage to it. It got dark before I was able to do much.

Anyway, for future reference, how should I go about making a hole to plant a tree or shrub in without creating a bathtub?

If the tree dies I will have to put something else there. I need to get some shade on that end of the house. How do I make the clay more suited for a tree?

In my experience, it is best to attempt to find a tree/plant that will not mind the clay, as opposed to amending it. At least the clay we have here in Ohio, you can add more and more stuff and still, at the end of the year, you are left with clay.

Before we moved along the lakeshore (sandy soil here), I became resigned to only having a few plants that needed well drained soil so I could concentrate on the small area I put them in.

Good luck! I would provide suggestions, but I'm not at all familiar with the Alabama climate and flora!!!!!!!!!!!

Dig the hole only as deep as the rootball. And in 96.625% of cases, no amendment to backfill is needed. Clay in 86.166& of cases nothing is wrong with clay and generally provides what trees need (except trees that need fast drainage). Your Co Extension should have a list of trees suited to the area.

Dan

jcalhoun wrote:
"If the tree dies I will have to put something else there. I need to get some shade on that end of the house. How do I make the clay more suited for a tree? "

A lot of trees do just fine in clay soil. The problem people are talking about here, "bathtub effect" is when your soil ball is comprised of nursery container mix or your planting hole is ammended and the water drains from that medium but has no where to go once it does because it takes much longer for clay to absorb it.

Next time you buy a tree in a container, remove all the soil covering the rootflare first (or better, before you even buy the tree). What happens a lot of the time is nursery workers receive the trees bare root and stick them in a container and pile on several inches of soil on top of it to keep it from tipping over.
If you buy a b&b tree, the machines that dig the trees out of the ground will push a lot of soil against the trunk and that needs to be removed during planting.

The thing says you're in mobile, ala so you have 6 months before you should attempt planting anything again. Plenty of time to dig out your root flare and see out this one does.

Dan gave you some good directions in the previous reply however I think he left out one key ingredient and that's to dig a WIDE (not deep) planting hole. 3 times the width of the root ball is ideal. As mentioned, don't dig any deeper than the soil bail. It doesn't hurt to have your soil ball a little higher than grade.

Will second what musical said about the rootball being above grade. When in clay soil that doesn't drain well leaving the top of the root ball as much as 2" above grade can be helpful.

Dan gave you some good directions in the previous reply however I think he left out one key ingredient and that's to dig a WIDE (not deep) planting hole. 3 times the width of the root ball is ideal.

Yes, indeed - insufficiently caffeinated, apologies.

Plant small, grow tall, plant proud.

Here's the diagram the BH includes on her tag with every tree she plants, and includes on her instruction page:

{{gwi:377133}}

Dan

Thanks for the links.

Today about 90% of the leaves are brown. All of the limbs, branches, and stems are still green though. Hopefully it will pull through.

I have had much more success with planting shumards in their whip stage and during their dormant season. These trees for me have grown agressivly. And gained great trunk strength and good canopy structure with just small amounts of needed pruning each dormant season.

Did have two 4 inch wide trunk and 14 feet tall sized Shumard oaks planted in my front yard decades ago. A local nursery delivered and planted them for me in the late fall part of our growing season that year.

I remember that the nursery worker planted both those trees raised higher due to what he termed as too much clay soil that he encounterd after he had dug only 12 inches down.

Those two trees survived just fine, but that was probably only because the heat of our summers had passed, and that year's September, October and November month's temps were moderate enough to not stress those new transplants which allowed the trees proper time to go dormant for the upcoming winter, and for their roots to acclimate better over that fall and winter prior to winter freezing, and then to resume as early as the winter freezing temps broke in that then, following late winter and early spring.

The first 12 to 14 years after these trees were planted for me, I simply loved them as they flourished and grew large enough to shade the house from the summer's hot afternoon sun exposures. But after that the trees became a pain due to their abundant acorn crops. tons of pollen debri had to be cleaned up in the early spring, and through out much of the rest of the growing season, acorns. Tons of acorns falling in the yard, my landscape beds, under my shrubs, and on the sidewalks. The results of this each year was sprouting trees from acorns I had missed picking up or had not seen due to them having been planted by squirrels.
Keeping those oak sprouts pulled would not have been so bad, if I had not also encountered tons of maple and dogwood saplings, which had drifted from my neighbor's yard into my landscape beds.

There were two very large popcorn (tallow) trees here before the oaks. They very messy with the pollen and seeds. I figured the oaks couldn't be any worse and a least are native.

I wanted to get rid of the popcorn trees before fall but money was tight so I had to keep them until April.

It has been dry for a few days now. The tree doesn't seem to be declining as much today.

Update.

The tree seems to be much the same as last time I posted. The same pale green leaves are still pale green (but not brown!) and the limbs and stems are still green. I guess that's a good sign.

It's been hot and dry yet very humid lately. There has only been an inch or two of rain in the last week or so. The hole is still moist but not holding water.

What's the status of this one?

About the same. There are a few very pale green leaves remaining on the bottom limbs. All the other leaves are brown and starting to fall. The limbs and stems are still green.

We've been in a hot dry spell lately. I have been giving it a limited amount of water but the hole seems to be less prone to holding water right now.

The other tree is dark green and seems to absorb water much easier than the other tree.

If the leaves are falling off your shocked tree, that is a good sign. The falling leaves indicate that your transpant shocked tree is still alive enough to push those dried up leaves off.

What you do not want to see is dried up leaves that continue to remain on a shocked tree. Any transplanted tree I have seen go in shock and that is not able to push off the dried leaves, has usually produced such a situation for that tree, which results in proving that the tree is either well in the process toward death or already dead.

I hope so.

It's supposed to be rainy the next few days. I guess we'll see how it goes.

Well, it's rained quite a bit this week. I guess this will let me know if it stands a chance.

If it doesn't pull through, I'm thinking about planting a 8ft tall potted magnolia that I have access to. Otherwise I'll have to buy another 8 to 12 ft tall tree that will survive in this nasty clay yard.

I've planted shumardies in late spring in stripped, compacted clay street lawns with no probs.

Latest update.

I had to pull it up today. The leaves were all brown and the stems were starting to turn brown.

When I got it out of the hole the roots were wet.

I filled the hole and will get that magnolia (it's free!). It's still potted so should I be able to plant it or let it stay on the patio for a while?

Does your magnolia cultivar tolerate soggy clay soils?

The Butterfly and Anticipation cultivars that I planted have proven to need moist but very well draining planting beds.

I first purchased those in the fall and planted them without removing their pots. Then after the last freeze of the following winter, I pull them out, removed them from the pots and planted them while they were still dormant.

Butterfly and Anticipation magnolias are not evergreen magnolias, and they easily stress and die if planted after they have already leafed out or if the soil where they are planted gets too soggy and drains too slowly.

Is the cultivar you have in a pot not so sensitive? I mean will it easily survive when first planted in saturated soils that do not drain well, and will it do well even if you plant it in the hot summer months?

It looks like the typical Southern Magnolia that is native to this area. However, the tag on the tree says that it is called magnolia grandiflora "teddy bear". Not sure what the teddy bear part means.

The tree is about 7 feet tall. It appears healthy but is starting to get root bound. Maybe I should go ahead and try planting it?

Not sure what the teddy bear part means.

That is the variety (cultivar). If it needs good drainage, it won't work there.

Dan

After doing some reasearch I discovered that the teddy bear is a dwarf magnolia. It is only suppossed to get about 20ft tall. Otherwise it looks like an ordinary Southern Magnolia.

I decided to go ahead and plant it since it's starting to get root bound. Not sure how it will do but it at least it was free. I'll have to find a more suitable shade tree this winter.

OK, I'll be more direct. That tree won't like it there due to the apparent poor drainage.

Dan

Time for an update.

The "Teddy Bear" magnolia did pretty well in that loaction. Unfortunately, it was destroyed by a wind storm this past winter. I have since planted an ordinary red maple there and it seems to be doing well.

The other shumard got infected by a worm or borer. When I noticed none of the leaf buds were turning color I did some investigating and found chewed through channels inside the trunk and the bark was peeling away in large patches. So, I decided to cut my loses and remove the tree.

I went to the plant sale and talked with a nursery owner about the problem. He said that due to the thick wet acidic (pH 5.4)clay he doubts the shumards would have ever grown well anyway. So, I purchased a 6ft tall sweet bay magnolia that they grew from local stocks. He claims they are more tolerant of high acidity and wetland type conditions. I had also planted some cyrillas and dahoon hollies along the southern property line and they are also doing well this spring.

It's alive! Alive!!!

The shumard referred to in the previous post was cut down to ground level with my Saws - All. Around the first week of June it sprouted from the stump. It's now 13 inches tall.

I'm going to leave it alone and see what happens.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d118/gotrektheslayer/trees/shumarda.jpg

{{gwi:377150}}

Here we go.