When diagnosing (hard) starting problems ALWAYS start at square one... the battery.

You'd be surprised how many "new" batteries of all quality levels are sold with a marginal cell or two and the problem is not limited to price point or brand. These "current challenged" batteries do not provide the CCA they are supposed to and do not crank long.

A properly functioning battery makes life much easier on the starter and solenoid and that can save a high dollar repair down the road.

I run a load test on every battery I buy and if it doesn't pass, back to the store it goes and gets exchanged until I get one that does pass.

It's worth the trouble as my last L&G battery was a mid priced one that lasted 7 years.

I agree that marginal batteries should be replaced. My battery was getting sluggish so I bought a new one a couple weeks ago. I use my tractor during the winter and a marginal battery won't start my tractor when it's cold.

I purchased a 340 CCA battery for $24.95 which included a $5 allowance for my old battery. I bought the new battery at the local Farm & Fleet. 340 CCA is a bit overkill but the new battery really spins my 12HP Kohler. It should start easily this winter.

-Deerslayer

I like the fact that my old MF's use a regular car battery, group 24, something like 575cca. The ole 1855 has had the same battery for over five years, still cranks the heck out of it.

Hmm... that has me thinking. On hot days, my LX176 has a hard time starting. I can hear the solenoid click, but no crank. When I test the voltage at the braided wire that spins the starter motor, I read 6V, but I read 12V at the battery when I do this.

I suspect something is up with the solenoid itself, but maybe there's something to the battery. It's a Deere-branded battery from June 2006, so it's not like it's old.

On cooler days, or on cold days, there's no problems.

If you have 12v at the battery, but only 6v at the starter, the problem is somewhere in between. It could be poor connections at the solenoid or starter. .. at the terminal connections or inside the terminals/wires. ... or solenoid.

You say you get 12V at the battery when you do this but only 6V at the starter. Where are you probing at the battery? If you are probing directly to the battery post itself and showing 12V, try moving over onto the cable clamp (terminal) and test that. If it still shows 12V, move on to where the cable emerges from the clamp and test that. If it still has 12V, go to the input side of solenoid and test it there, and so on til you have tested each connection and crimp in the cable.

I get 12V at the battery, and at the battery lug on the solenoid. All the connections are clean- no corrosion, no oil, no dirt.

Note that the solenoid on this Kawasaki engine is on the starter, much like a non-Ford car, so replacing the solenoid will require a little disassembly. if it were just bolted to the firewall, I would have done that first.

I've been suspecting that something is wrong internally with the solenoid, but it is also possible something weird is happening with the battery.

And are you checking the voltage at the battery WHILE THE STARTER IS ENGAGED (turning engine)? If you are checking the voltage at the battery when the starter IS NOT engaged, but checking the voltage on the braided cable (output of solenoid, input to starter motor), your 6V drop is due to Amp draw of the starter (and hence is not indicative of a problem all by itself). If you ARE checking voltage at both points while the starter is engaged and you get the 6V drop, the contacts inside the solenoid are likely arc burned. This would likely require a replacement solenoid (as few components can be serviced anymore).

My 20 year old Snapper w/16 hp Briggs engine has developed what I call a Wierd start. When cold, the engine will not start or even fire no matter how much it cranks. The battery is good.
All I have to do is spray a tiny amount of Hot-Shot down the carb throat and it fires and starts right away....
Engine runs normally after it gets going.........
Any clues??.....thanks

Coil is getting a bit weak. ?? Might try a smaller gap on the plugs.

What is hot-shot?? and why why would it make the ignition suddenly spark? Sounds to me the choke not choking or it's not pulling gas from the carb. into the combustions chamber.

If the plug is not wet after cranking and cranking when it don't start I would suspect fuel is not being sucked from the carb. for proper priming in the starting phase. which if the hot-shot is a liquid IMO it's priming the engine for starting which the choke and carb. should be doing.

Now if the plugs are wet and it don't fire and the hot-shot clears the flooded condition then I would suspect weak or faulty ignition system.

"Hot Shot" is 32% ether. My thoughts were that it would ignite with a lower quality spark. ??

From Wikipedia:
"Starting fluid comes in a regular or premium grade. The regular grade contains 21-35% diethyl ether. Premium grade starting fluids have a 40-60% diethyl ether content. The rest of the volume is commonly taken by heptane.

Using starting fluid to get the engine running faster avoids wear, especially on rarely used engines. Mechanics, especially amateur mechanics that lack diagnostic machines, sometimes use it to diagnose starting problems. If sprayed into the air intake on a car, it can be used to determine whether the spark and ignition system of the car is functioning, since the engine will run until the starting fluid vapors in the intake system are exhausted. It is used more often with carbureted engines than with fuel injection systems. It is especially useful for starting diesel engines in colder weather as they do not run efficiently until the engine block warms up to a certain degree."

mownie- my results are with the starter engaged. I get a click, but no engage. I don't think the pinion gear is coming out, or if it is, it's not turning the engine. I'm still leaning on the solenoid. It's strange that it happens only when hot.

constantinotobio,

It's not strange that it happens only when hot. A solenoid problem can manifest itself when hot and internal parts expand increasing clearances and dropping current across contacts.

You may find that only a cleaning and burnishing of the internal contacts is necessary. Don't overlook inspecting the bushing in the nose of the starter that supports the shaft, they sometimes wear and bind. Also, check the Bendix and sliding gear for smooth operation.

Reasonable suggestions from justalurker if you can access the internal heavy duty contacts.

Heat is cause of silenoid not working when hot magnet weak. I say to late for heatshield installed for this one but so for this maybe bad info. For weird part its not uncommon on japanese are germany starters to be to close to flywheel bendix is hitting flywheel but not engaging after hot all parts have expanded a good fix be shim starter out .010 but flange mount with tight fit bellcrank on starter to bellhousing ( less call it bellhousing even if not ) may not allow moving starter away from flywheel the reason of moving starter from flywheel is so starter will begin its spin that what you are losing spin caused by to short travel in silenoid plunger. Every time I have replaced a starter to correct this it never work are not for long. Changing flywheel and adding spacer washer between flywheel and crankshaft is another work around. This problem is factory defect so a good sevice manager should pick up on this and help given time with his factory rep. they may come up with good patch are new engine. constantinotobio good luck.

My JD GX255 comes from the factory with a 500 cold cranking amp battery to spin the Kawasaki 20 hp air-cooled engine.

I agree that you can never have too much battery for your equipment. When I buy a new battery, I try to get the most powerful CCA/RM battery I can find.

Autozone usually has some good batteries made by Johnson Controls and with good prices.

I only use ether in sub-zero weather (which I haven't had the pleasure of being in for 20 years) or maybe on diesels, but I don't own any. Ether IMO has no benifit other than cold weather starting.

Any engine that been in storage should be primed anyway. IMO carb. cleaner is best for priming engines it also vaporizes and cleans the carb. as your trying to get the engine started. Which IMO is why it an't starting----due to a dirty carb. I have taken carb clean to clear flooded engines by removing the plug spraying and cleaning with a wire brush. Then I squirt a fair amount into the combustion chamber through the spark plug hole and motor (crank or pull the rope several time). this blows out any gas and oil residue and primed the engine properly for starting. They usually fire right off even if they have been is storage a could of years.

Grassmaster I agree autozone is hard to beat for amps per buck.

"Hmm... that has me thinking. On hot days, my LX176 has a hard time starting. I can hear the solenoid click, but no crank. When I test the voltage at the braided wire that spins the starter motor, I read 6V, but I read 12V at the battery when I do this."

You could do a quick check when it malfunctiions. Disconnect the purple wire from the starter sol. With the parkbrake locked, jump the positive sol post to the male tang where the purple wire was connected. If the engine spins now? Then the problem is with the saftey system, low amps. There is a kit to fix this condition. If the starter still just clicks, then the starter will need further checking. These starters can be repaired most of the time.

deeredoctor- does this retrofit consist of a relay? On old air-cooled VWs, this is a common issue (particularly on hot-starts) because the energizing current for the solenoid runs through the ignition switch, which over the years degrades because the ignition switch is not really designed to carry this current load. What we do on those is put in a 20A relay to take the load off the ignition switch, such that the ignition switch carries the energizing current for the relay, not the full current of the solenoid circuit.

You got it. They are listed on the old 100 series parts lists. 130/160/165/170/175/180/185's. Very easy fix.

Looked it up on jdparts.com:

Part Details
Part Number: AM107421
Part Price: 24.90 USD
On Hand: 2
Description: KIT, WIRING HARNESS & RELAY

My local dealer has it in stock. The more I think about this, the more it seems like the classic heatsoak issue.

"energizing current for the solenoid runs through the ignition switch, which over the years degrades because the ignition switch is not really designed to carry this current load"

Do you suppose that's what is happening to my old '78 Jeep CJ5? I checked over the starter wiring and put on a new starter, but sometimes it "just has a flat spot", then it takes off. It has all the original harness, fuse block, and switches.

tmajor- Do you suppose that's what is happening to my old '78 Jeep CJ5? I checked over the starter wiring and put on a new starter, but sometimes it "just has a flat spot", then it takes off. It has all the original harness, fuse block, and switches.

This is a pretty common problem, particularly as a vehicle gets old. A common solution also is to use a Ford starter solenoid as a relay, and bolt this near the starter so that the cables are nice and short (and less apt to short out against something in the engine compartment).

Don't discount that you have a bad ignition switch or neutral safety switch, however.

Here is a link that might be useful: Here's the general idea:

Using a big Ford type starter relay is a bit of "over kill" for this application (though it will work). A more appropriate (size wise) relay is a Bosch type, 5-blade "universal" relay. These are rated at 30 amp continuous load (40+ momentary load) and will do just fine to power up the solenoid on the starter. The main thing to remember is: Your new wires feeding the input to the Bosch relay and the output from the relay to the starter solenoid, need to be 12 gauge in size. You can provide power to the relay by making a wire lead with 5/16" eyelet terminal on one end to attach to BATTERY + cable stud ON THE STARTER. The other end of lead needs to be a female spade terminal to attach to output post of Bosch relay. This lead should include an inline fuse (20 amp) near the attachment point on the starter. If you want a schematic of the wiring I can post one. Basically you would be pulling the present OEM solenoid "trigger" or control wire from the starter solenoid and use it to operate the Bosch relay. The Bosch relay will send current to the OEM solenoid post on the starter when you turn your key switch to the crank position.

Well, I picked up one of these AM107421 kits this morning at my local JD Dealership. It looks like just the relay I would have made up myself, just a little more professional. I'll be installing it this weekend.

I will likely add a fuse to the wire on terminal 30, which is the wire that goes to the starter lug and feeds the power circuit on the relay. I don't like wires connected straight to the battery to not be fused.

You don't need the fuse. I have installed dozens of these with no problems.

How long is the run of wire leading from the + lug (battery positive at starter) to terminal 30 on the relay?? Where are you instructed to mount the "add-on" relay? If the added relay is "piggy-back" mounted on (or very near) the starter, and the power feed (+ lug to relay 30) is only a few inches long, you can omit the fuse (if you like). If this wire is more than 12" long and/or will rest on/touch/rub metal surfaces, absolutely employ a fuse. Locate the fuse as close to the + lug of the starter as you can get it so that the wire feeding the add-on relay will be protected against short-to-ground events. Unless YOU INCLUDE a fuse, the new circuit will not have "over current protection". In any case I recommend covering the new wires with either "split loom" or "solid loom" to give added protection against chafing.

The pigtail coming off the relay is maybe 8" long. It's designed to be mounted close to the starter- on my engine (Kawi FC420V), it would go on the bolt holding the dipstick tube according to the instructions.

JD would not sell something unsafe. This kit has been around for years. I know of no failures with it. It is built to be plug and play, nothing else required. Just mount it by the included instructions and you will be ok.

I have installed them on 130,160,165,170,175,180,185,LX 172/173/176/186, Gator 4x2's with no problems and no extra anything except a zip tie.

Including a fuse or circuit breaker is always good practice. The battery + cable that attaches to the starter lug is not "fused". Therefore any circuits that are derived from it are "unprotected against shorts". Even if the battery + cable WAS fused by the OEM, the capacity of THAT hypothetical fuse would necessarily be too great to protect a "small load circuit" such as this "solenoid load circuit" modification. The bottom line here is that you should always include overcurrent protection in ALL circuits where a short-to-ground could lead to a fire. That John Deere (or Kawasaki) does not incorporate overcurrent protection in "their kit" does not not prove that there would never be a reason for having overcurrent protection. It more proves that they are willing to sell a kit with the absolute minimum components required to affect a correction of the "non engagement" problem and that they are OK with playing the odds that overcurrent protection will NEVER be needed. In other words they are betting that YOUR machine (not theirs) will never have a short. I never impied that the arrangement "will not work" without a fuse. I am only pointing out that overcurrent protection is a necessary consideration in circuits and to omit that from the package is negligent and poor judgement. If it was such a sure thing that shorts WILL NOT happen, fuses would never have been invented. (necessity being the mother).

mownie,
Are you an engineer? You strike me as the type after reading several of you posts.

Also, don't walk outside in the rain, odds of getting hit by lightning are good. I have a friend that was hit by indirect lightning, 20 ft from a chain link fence that was struck, in a light drizzle. I also have a customer that has been hit multiple times.

The loom idea is fine, makes a super clean factory look. JD tests their products, but I know things come up that was not tested. Its all about choice. Anything can happen in an electrical circuit. Heck, Ford had a bunch of ign sw's catching cars on fire and had recall and it was fused.

deeredoctor, I'm not an engineer (though I did get to sit in the engineer's seat of a locomotive once. 8^) I'm a mechanic (for about 40 years now, started at age 16 and had 1 year in trade school to that vocation). I have an incurable compulsion to read and study and experiment and build and on and on (shut up already!!!!) I have worked as a professional electrician (2 year stint with a good sized electrical contractor in the early 1980s) and as a welder (1 year at trade school to that vocation). You are correct to point out that the OEMs don't always "get it right the first time". I have seen addendums to the addendums of Factory Service Bulletins throughout the years that make you wonder just how many committee members were actually in attendance when the first bulletin was written. You are also correct in that many things do come down to a "matter of choice" in how one does their work/projects and such. I don't want you to think I was belittling you or the work you have done. I just wanted to make sure every reader got the point about what a fuse/fusible link/circuit breaker is needed for and why it really should be a detail to consider when modifying circuits on ANY type of electrical system. Just as I would NEVER suggest anyone remove or defeat any overcurrent device provided by an OEM, neither would I suggest that new or add-on circuits be rendered without addressing the aspect of short circuit/overload protection. Your highlighting the odds of getting struck by lightning are good too. We all know that it could happen and thus don't (I hope) do things to to increase the chances of being a "lightning rod". Glad you mentioned the part about Ford (though probably not the only OEM "guilty" of being off the predicted mark). That their fuse DID NOT prevent every possible scenario shows (at least to me) either the original estimate of amp draw in that circuit was wrong...or somewhere between concept and production, the parameters changed (like maybe the ampacity of those ignition switches or the associated wires on it) and nobody caught that or went back to change the rating of the fuse/fusible link.

Well, here's the relay installed:

{{gwi:356565}}

As you can see, it's bolted to the clip that holds the dipstick tube, per the instructions. Power is sourced from the battery + terminal, and I grounded it on the starter bolt.

It looks real clean, and starts up just fine (summer will be the real test, but the sooner I take load off the ignition switch the better, I say.)