I really love your neck of the woods and have many great memories of fishing for Wallys with my late father up there on the lake. I have fished out of Conneaut, Ashtabula, and Port Clinton. Maybe a few other places. I grew up in Poland, Ohio and moved down here in '75 as a kid but returned each Fall to help the folks with their 2+ acres of gardens (Getting them ready for Winter) and Dad would take me up to the lake on the weekends. Great times that I'm glad I shared with him since he died very young. We always think there is time for everything but it just isn't true. Anyway, the soil we had at our place was great stuff but it needed all the organic stuff we could throw at it and more. Below the topsoil was a yellow clay. I hauled countless tons of manures from our farm that was just across the road for those gardens. Also, I would suck up mountains of leaves in the fall and run them through my Troy-Bilt Super Tomahawk chipper/shredder and the resulting product was huge piles of leaf dust. I spread that leaf dust at least 4" thick down each crop row every Fall. We sometimes dusted a little lime and or wood ash onto the rows as well. I guess my point is that though I suppose it could be possible to get too much organic matter into the soil but I sure don't see how. I busted my hump to get all I could to enrich that clay soil and the ground just ate it up and smacked her lips for more. I used a .22 for my groundhog gun as a kid and it would kill them but not fast enough to suit me. The darned things would crawl under the garage or barn after I hit them and then stink all Summer. I much prefer the .223 because it explodes them. They go nowhere! Well, pieces of them do but you get my point. LOL The bluegills will be great fertilizer! I usually don't have problems with critters digging up the fish but I have had a kitty or two that dug into the stuff in past years. I'm sure I just didn't put it deep enough. I try not to put it all that deep so the nutrients will be where I want them. Just give it a shot and you will figure out what works quickly and catching the bluegills will be a hoot! One other thing about the groundhogs: I have made a sport out of stalking them with my rifle. I bow hunt deer up there in Ohio and I would often see them (the groundhogs) out there while I'm in my full camo hunting clothes before or after a hunt. I can litterally walk up to easy shot range. The trick is to never move when their heads are up on "alert" but only move as they drop back down for another bite. It can take a long time making the approach but I think it's a blast and I sure have sent a bunch of them to their reward in this fashion! Have a great Summer! "Thanks for the reply. Some year when I get some cash I would like to come to Fla just to go fishing. I live close to Lake Erie and we have walleye, perch, etc.. but nothing really cool. I never thought of composting the varmits, I usually throw them in the back for the buzzards to eat. I picked off a coon last night lurking around the chicken coop. The ground hogs usually come out when I'm not around, I see them running away when I pull up the drive, mocking me as they run. I have a .22 with a decent scope on it which works good(cheap and quiet) I also have a 12ga and a 7mm but they're too loud to be discrete. The garden is on the far side of the pond near the road and I don't shoot in that direction so I use a live trap (try to anyway, damn skunks). I have 3 ponds on the property with WAY TOO many bluegill. I might have to start some intensive fishing when the wife's away. Do the fish attract critters when buried? Corn likes "N". I'll have to try the crow trick, I'm sure my neighbor will think I'm nuts :-) Thanks for the tips, they're appreciated."

I've never posted in this forum, and I don't want to spend a lot of time introducing myself, but since 2002 I have moderated three organic lawn care forums around the Internet. I live in San Antonio and have noticed the mention of Malcolm Beck in another post by strawberryhill. That made me feel a little at home here. I have met Beck on many occasions as he had a monthly organic gardening community meeting running for a year or so in the early 2000s. Malcolm is considered the father of organic gardening in our part of Texas and has a huge following, so it is nice to see his mention in this forum. I have an observation or two (or a lot more) on this forum, but in the context of this thread, I'd like to hold my keyboard back somewhat. All my focus has been in lawns for these years, but in the course of many meetings and keeping my ear to the ground, I have learned a little about how the community cares for roses. First of all, to answer a question asked way up on this, the application rate for molasses over an area is 1 gallon per acre which equates to 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. For spraying roses, the San Antonio organic community typically uses 3 ounces of molasses along with 3 ounces of liquid seaweed per gallon of water. Spray the undersides of the leaves and all surfaces of the plant. What this apparently does is feed the microbes living on the outside of the plant and those microbes help ward off sucking pests. If you add 3 ounces of garlic juice to the mix, it helps keep thrips off the roses. If you have not already discovered it, check your local farm and ranch co-op to see if they sell bulk molasses. Bulk molasses is sold by the pound. I think the current price is around $0.15 per pound which equates to about a $1.50 per gallon. This stuff is feed grade molasses, not food grade. Also I'd like to respond to somethings strawberryhill said above. This might be long so get comfortable. I have the same good results breaking up my rock hard dolomitic/limestone clay here with gypsum. I was digging a hole and stopped at rock-hard limestone at the bottom. I sprinkled gypsum, poured some water, and took a few hours break. I came back, and the bottom was softened enough to fish out more stones. I would highly suggest you get a soil test done before adding anything like gypsum to your soil. The best soil test lab in the country seems to be Logan Labs in Ohio. By best I mean bang for the buck as well as reliability in their test results. For $20 you get testing done that would cost up to $100 at most university soil test facilities. At LL that is their normal test so they are very experienced to doing it. At a university these would be considered "extra" and they'd have to order chemicals and relearn how to do the test. And in general, adding gypsum type calcium to a soil that is already calcareous seems like the wrong approach. In the past I dumped peat moss (pH 4), or alfalfa meal (pH 5.7) at the bottom of the hole. BIG MISTAKE ! Those fine particles glued up with my sticky clay ... and became concrete. University of California Extension listed 1 ton of gypsum as equivalent to 5.38 ton of sulfur. The only thing I would put in the bottom of the hole would be micorrhizal fungi and possibly rock phosphate. I also tested how sulfur soften my clay ... takes way longer than gypsum. It took at least one month for the sulfur to have an effect. A bit of gypsum is 5 times more effective than sulfur to soften clay, also to de-salt saline soil. First of all I would disagree with making this sound like a blanket statement. Gypsum does not soften soil except in special circumstances. Sulfur is a fungicide which kills the beneficial fungi which normally soften soil. So sulfur would be a bad idea for softening the soil. In the lawn community there are commercial surfactants sold to soften soil for professional sports complexes and golf courses. The cost roughly $70 per gallon which is out of reach for most home owners, but not out of reach for one of the moderators I worked with for several years. He also happens to be a soap hobbyist and junior chemist. Basically he tried the various surfactant materials and found they worked fantastic. Then he reverse engineered them and examined the ingredients. Then he bought those ingredients on eBay and started experimenting. As his basic tool he uses a screwdriver. Stab the screwdriver into the ground and measure how deep it goes. Then soften the soil and measure the penetration. Then along I came and simplified his approach. I have been recommending the use of baby shampoo at the rate of 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. Apply to the soil and immediately follow up with 1 inch of water. A week later give another inch of water. A week after that reapply the shampoo and inch of water. That should set up the soil environment to favor the beneficial fungi which normally keep the soil soft. In the typical lawn this has worked across the country. In my yard after watering my soil is almost too soft to walk on without turning an ankle. That moderator experimented with increasing amounts of his surfactant to see how deep his soil would soften. He got up to about 50 ounces of surfactant per 1,000 square feet every week for months. There was no problem to the lawn (but I would redo this for roses to be sure). As far as softness, basically he ran out of screwdriver and had to resort to other measuring devices. I believe he was at a comfortable 20 inches or so of pretty soft soil (he's north of Philly). Another mod had a tree limb bury itself 27 inches deep in his lawn. So I would highly recommend trying this. Molasses & gypsum & sulfate of potash to lower alkaline water: It works better than vinegar, I wilted a few roses by watering plus vinegar in high heat. I tried used lemons last year, didn't green up. Molasses is thick so I dilute molasses with water, before adding the other 2 powders and shake the bottle. Then I use 1 teaspoon of that pre-mixed solution per 2 gallons water. Here's the basics if used from concentrated. Again making the blanket statement that gypsum is good for the soil is not going to work for many people. Certainly it won't work in Texas where most of the soil is limestone with a pH of 8.0. Normally we use vinegar instead of RoundUp to kill plants. Spraying it on plants is one thing (non selective herbicide), but using it on the soil is another (carbohydrate bacteria food). And I'm also interested in the mention and use of potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash). That is not an organic material. That is salt. I realize it is used in every commercially branded organic fertilizer, but that is why I never use those. So I'm curious why it is so prominent in an organic forum and what it does to enhance rose health or production. One teaspoon of thick molasses per 2 gallons of water, beyond that will turn the edge of leaves brownish (I did that to Gina's rose, most likely from the 20% iron of molasses). Wholesome Organics (zero salt) and Plantation brand (low-salt) also has 15% calcium and 20% potassium. I have not heard of any problems using 3 ounces of molasses per gallon. I'll check into this further. The purpose of adding sulfate of potash and calcium sulfate (gypsum) is to utilize the sulfur part to green up roses, and neutralize the lime in tap water. Again this only applies to calcarious soils, but I believe there is a much better material to use. Sulfur is a fungicide surpassed only in potency by most sulfates. If you want to harden your soil, the first thing you should use to kill the beneficial fungi is sulfates. If you have calcarious soil, you'll be better off using greensand (if you can find it) and mulching with a shredded tree mulch. As the mulch decomposes the organic humic acids from that process will do more to acidify your soil than sulfur. Any tree trimmer has the material you need. One teaspoon of gypsum powder per gallon of water, beyond that will make plants more prone to fungal diseases (rust and black spots). Too much calcium drives down potassium, necessary for disease-prevention. Instead scatter whole ground corn meal (the kind you cook with or animal feed) around the base of your roses. Cornmeal attracts the trichoderma (try koh DER mah) fungus. Trichoderma is a predatory fungus which feeds on the cell walls of other fungi. This research was done on peanuts at Texas A&M in Stephenville. They have suppressed the research and recently took it off the web. Basically what they found was that peanuts, which normally develop a fungal disease over the course of a season, had to be rotated with a non-fungal crop every year. By using ordinary corn meal on the ground (20 pounds per 1,000 square feet), they were able to use the same soil to grow peanuts year after year. I tried it on my roses and the PM and black spot disappeared in a 3 weeks. Corn meal is also a weak organic fertilizer so there is certainly no harm to try this approach. There was a lot more about the use of potassium sulfate and gypsum, so while I believe those are not good for an organic garden, I am interested to know why y'all thing they are.

Who did that "soil test"? Your Kansas State University does a much better test that does include, besides pH, the ratio of Calcium to Magnesium, the C.E.C. (Cation Exchange Capacity), and amount of organic matter in the soil. What you need to know is the soils pH. Most all nutrients are most readily available with a soil pH in the 6.0 to 7.0 range, although some plants have evolved needing a lower soil pH. The ratio of Calcium to Magnesium influences soil pH. The C.E.C. is a measure of the soil ability to hold on to both moisture and nutrients and release them so plants can utilize them. The C.E.C. should be in the upper teens to low twenties and sandy soils tend to have very low numbers while clay soils tend to have much higher numbers. Organic matter tends to have numbers in the upper teens to lower twenties. How much organic matter is in the soil. Whether your soil is sand or clay you should work toward an amount of organic matter in the soil between 6 and 8 percent. In addition to helping sandy soils hold on to both moisture and nutrients and helping clay soils release the moisture and nutrients and open up the clay so drainage improves the organic material added to soil feeds the Soil Food Web that feed the plants growing in that soil. In addition to having a good reliable soil test done, preferably by your Kansas State University Cooperative Extension Service, perhaps these simple soil tests may be of some help. 1) Soil test for organic material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. 2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up. 3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart. 4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter can be bad as well. 5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy. kimmq is kimmsr

Whatever your "landscaper" used for "topsoil" was probably about 95 percent mineral (the sand, silt, clay part of soil) and 5 percent organic matter and what your soil really needed was organic matter. Whether cottonseed meal, or any other meal, would help would depend on the Soil Food Web and how active they were. Things like cottonseed meal need to be digested before the nutrients in them are available to plants and if the soil has little organic matter the SFW is not there to do that. First you need to look closely at that soil to determine what it needs and that requires a good reliable soil test for soil pH and major nutrient levels and balance. Then these simple soil tests may also be of some help. 1) Soil test for organic material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. 2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up. 3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart. 4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter can be bad as well. 5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy. kimmq is kimmsr