Roses are sun loving plants and the area appears to be shaded by large trees,
I wouldn't advise planting roses there, until you've ascertained how many hours of full sun that area receives each day. I'd put a few poles up in the area you'd like roses to grow, and check at 8 am, 10 am, 2 pm and 4 pm whether the poles are covered with sunlight (or not) during those hours. and plant large flowered roses such as Teas, where they'd get 8 hours of full sun a day.

"Mme. Berkeley" and the 'California' form of "Lamarque" are the two healthiest Tea roses in our area where pm and b.s. are commonly occuring fungi. I don't know if they would be cold hardy in your area.
Good Luck
Luxrosa

You got very good advice. I have a friend who doesn't listen when I tell her roses need 8 hours of full sun. She plants in shadier spots and she has living rose bushes, but not many flowers at all.

What about some camellias? They'd be beautiful.

If you do have the sun for a Tea, Georgetown Tea has gotten to be a good size mature bush much faster than other teas I grow.

Your spot does not necessarily look too shady to me. It depends on which way the sun moves. I have a couple of Hybrid Musk, a few polyanthas, a gallica and a few noisettes, all with anywhere from 3 to 5 hours of sun a day depending on the time of year. They all do very well for me. Sally Holmes, a Hybrid Musk, has tons of blooms right now and only gets a maximum of 4 hours of sun. I am in California and perhaps the sun/heat level here is different than for you in Kentucky, but I do not see a problem for you if you want to grow roses. Many once bloomers and species roses do well with less than a perfect amount of sun. Since I am not from your zone, I will wait for others to make recommendations, but I just wanted to encourage you to continue to consider roses rather than alternatives. It would be helpful to know how much sun per day your bed gets.

I wanted to add that Duchess de Brabant is listed on helpmefind as zone 5b and above. It is also mentioned that this rose is shade tolerant. My DdB is in full sun, so I have no experience with the shade thing, but this rose is very disease free, except for a bit of summertime PM in my area. All of my roses are no spray and this one is a great rose. From your pictures, I would think that DdB would fit very well and give you some privacy. Hopefully, someone from your area will have better/further advice.

My Duchesse de Brabant was purchased in the very early spring as a large two-gallon own-root from ARE and planted in a large patio container. It gets morning sun until noon or 1 PM at the latest, and it continues to bloom its head off and its foliage is flawless so far. If you decided to try a tea there, I'd go with the Duchesse, she's a beauty.

Randy

Do you own a hand truck? I'm concerned about both root competition and winter hardiness of small teas. Planting in large planters that can be moved to the garage in December would solve both problems. Look into 'root barrier' fabric anyway.

I actually already put stakes out there this spring, you just can't see them in the photo. The first stake was definitely too shady so I put the daylily there. The second stake is a maybe. It certainly does not get 8 hours of sun but many of my roses get 6 hours and they are very healthy.

From the middle of the row to the right end, it is almost too much sun, including late afternoon which in our heat will fry the roses a bit. I could put something else in the first 6 feet or so, the rest should be plenty of sun.

The roots, on the other hand, who knows until we till. By root barrier fabric, do you mean landscape fabric or something else? How far down would you put it, about 2 feet?

So based on what I said about the sun levels, would you change suggestions? What would you plant in the first 6 feet? I will look into camellias but I have not grown them before.

Thanks.

Charles de Mills. Either that or Jenny Duval. It's possibly large enough for both. Maybe.

The rampant gallicas are hard to grow if you don't have a place that is bounded by either hardscape or lawn. You can let them decide how close to the trees they want to be. You can also let them hiss at the trees and scare them off. It's not a place I'd put something fussy. The edge by the retaining wall is going to be dry and cold.

Ok Redsox.....

LOVE the rock wall. A few things to think about....

First Camellias like acid soil and get VERY tall. I think since you are already above the driveway level you might want to plant shorter versions of roses etc. You might find you wont be happy with a imposing wall, green or otherwise.

I grow DdB in full hot baking SC sun next to a white (highly reflective) driveway. She loves it and doesn't crisp out. Mine is at least 4 years old and only 4 feet tall. IMO she is a very good choice for you. Plant AWAY from the edge of the wall to ensure the roots have the soil protecting her from the cold.

Corenlia is a great no spray rose as well. I have experience with her with shade---she would be my pick to put in the shadiest area (next to daylilies) She tends to sprawl a bit which is a GREAT way to end a row of roses (as opposed to a row of soilders appearance). The nice thing is that you could even weight her down a bit and create a bit of a cascade if there is room for the cars to pass. If not, just trim her at the edge of the wall....she wont mind.

Beyond that you may need others to chime in with cold hardiness. I have attached a link of Teas hardy in zone 5b.

Good luck with whatever you decide!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Teas zone 5b and up

Ronda, I laughed at your post because you are the rock wall Goddess! OK, so forget the camellias. I didn't mention in my post that I have alkaline soil. While I amend, it still runs alkaline.

I couldn't get that link, am I doing something wrong?

Hmm, alkaline. I was going to recommend Buff Beauty maybe, it tends to tumble.

Max

LOL...

Ok so HMF won't let me give you a presearched link. I went into HelpMeFind and selected Teas and zone 5b under the advanced search section. Looks like some familiar choices and some that are new to me.

Also...

C-o-r-n-e-l-i-a
Cornelia

Good lord my spelling has really taken a tumble today!!

;o)

Another you must consider is Penelope. She is awesome.

Ronda

Here is my Penelope. A bit young and already a pleaser!!

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I couldnt find a good pic of Cornelia (taken by me) but go to HMF and look at the pic by Mary Voss (link Below). I think you could imagine that rose spilling over your wall!!!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornelia by Mary Voss @ HMF

Very nice. Another question on DdB, is Mme Joseph Schwartz a sport of it? I guess that one would work too?

Would 3 of the same teas look good here or should I try some different varieties? I have never really planned a hedge before.

Your problem is that in zone 6 some of the tea roses won't be as hardy and won't get as big as they do elsewhere. I can grow teas very well in my area - Mons Tillier is almost perfectly disease resistant and it's well over 8 feet tall. But we're in a marginal area and just a few blocks away they don't seem to be able to grow teas at all. Part of it is likely to be the fact that my garden is slightly protected against the winds we get in winter, whereas your spot looks pretty exposed. At any rate, if you think you have the sun, try that rose. It's far and away the biggest tea that I have, so assuming both that it works and that it will be slightly smaller in your area, it might be a choice for you.

Not sure why you'd put Austins on the other side tho, or actually anywhere if you can grow teas. Crepuscule is also reportedly tender, but it grows pretty well for me, although not nearly as vigorously as Tillier. However, its habit is better - it's mounding and looks nicer as a plant. Plus it's also seriously disease resistant, something Austin didn't seem to much care about. What will grow in your area and at least out here has fewer disease problems than most Austins is Prarie Sunrise. Save yourself some spraying effort.

I thought Crepuscule was a climber. If it is tender for zone 7, I am a little afraid to try it. Sounds like DdB is more vigorous for all?

Debbie, what colors did you want in that area? You have plenty of sun there but I am not sure what Tea's are hardy to zone 6. Ann grows Tea's in zone 6 and should be able to tell you which one's do well for her.

Carol

Carol, well since you asked...:-) In a small bed, I usually prefer only 2-3 colors and since I already have a yellow/pink bed, I actually would like something different.

I would love to find Apricot and some other color but I'm not sure Apricot is do-able. White and something else would also be nice.

When planning a bed, I usually put everyone around me (forum) in the loony bin.

Does it have to be a Tea? Two beautiful apricots are the China's Arethusa and Perle d'Or. Lovely roses, nicely shaped bushes and bloom is nearly constant. I know that Barbara in zone 6 has grown Arethusa successfully. You could throw Comtesse du Cayla into the mix for some touches of pink/orange/apricot all in one bloom :-). I think that Ann grows all of these in zone 6 even though they are listed as zone 7 on HMF.

Carol

Carol, thanks for the great suggestions. I can't do Perle d'Or due to alkaline soil, but the other 2 are fabulous! I am starting to sort out my "list" of possibilities.

Perle D'Or was an Earthkind in TX, which has alkaline soil. I was going to suggest Marie Daly, or Marie Pavie. They would grow perfect size, thornless, and are all fragrant. Do a hedge of one kind.

I grow Perle d'Or here in alkaline conditions.
She handles things more like a Tea than like a Polyantha.

In that same general family, check on Lady Ann Kidwell (said to be hardy to Z 6)
and the original bush form of Cecile Brunner (to Z 5) or Spray Cecile Brunner.

These are all "Poly-Teas," rather than regular Polys.
Note that all of these are roses we find, un-cared-for and un-watered through summers, in old deserted cemeteries.

Jeri

Confused...I know a hedge of one kind would probably look better but I hate to have 3 of one rose when there are so many that I want.

hi, Redsox,
I've been trying to think what I would do if this were my driveway. I don't think I'd want anything tall on the edge of the bed adjacent to the driveway because from the driveway looking at it, I think it would look weird; what you'd see is the feet of roses.

On the edge, I'd use a groundcover rose like baby blanket or seafoam, allowing about 4 feet square for each plant down the slope. They're tough, good bloomers and very disease resistant. I think both are fine in your zone too. Then you wouldn't really have to spray them, I don't think.

Then on the upper edge, I'd expand the bed quite a bit, probably at least six feet, using some wide curves and add whatever taller type roses you want. I'd put in some concrete paving blocks between the two areas so you could get to the back of the teas to spray or prune and to the groundcover to trim it when it gets out of bounds. I think your idea of a combo of 2 Duchesse and 1 MJS with interplantings of perennials would very pretty. Either baby blanket (pink) or sea foam (white) would go well with those, I think.

Then, looking at it from the driveway, you'd have the groundcover spilling over, but easily trimmed back and then the curved bed; from the upper edge, you'd have a nice curved bed with your three teas. I also think the form of DdB would go well there; it tends to be more horizontal than vertical, I think.

All this is assuming that the bed areas are not a mass of roots and you can dig through it to plant. I'd use a lasagne bed to expand your bed. Anyway, just my two cents. Gean

Thanks for the idea. Baby Blanket is the one I would choose of the two. I see your point about looking up to bare legs.

I am liking the idea of DdB more and more as one or more of the choices. I start off being confused about what I want but I guess it flushes out over time.

I like gean's suggestions.

You could also put a graceful, shade tolerant evergreen that's just a bit bigger than your roses where the daylily is. I'd mix the three roses (so many to love!) up but select ones with the same form/shape. The daylilies would go at the end of the driveway. To tie it all together I'd cascade a length of Helichrysum 'limelight' with purple verbena or scaveola over that great rock wall. On the house side a few low growing perennials and a wide swath of alyssum to border it.

Something like that.

In my experience DdB gets a lot of dieback in zone 6B and requires many years to grow to decent size. It is also quite prone to BS here, not a no spray rose at all for me. Beautiful and fragrant but not very hardy in our zone and not care free.
Olga

I don't know how far north camellias can grow, but I have heard that there are camellias for "colder" climates. I've planted camellias in the northern sections of my beds that do not get optimal sunshine for roses due to some palm trees, as it alternates between a few hours of direct sun and dappled, and put the roses in the sections with all the direct sun. The camellias and roses compliment each other beautifully. I'm also throwing in a few native plants and daylillies to the mix. I can tell you that the same identical roses planted both in the full sun area, and the "marginal sun area" made it VERY clear to me that roses need as much sun as possible to bloom and stay healthy.

Roses actually look better when combined with a few other plants and shrubs. By putting the right plant in the right place disease is no longer an issue. I've quit growing roses in shade, unless it is late afternoon shade after they've been in full sun all day, and this includes the hybrid musks. They stay much healthier when they are in direct sun most of the day, and bloom more.

I think Jeri Jenning's suggestion to plant a few poly-teas such as Lady Ann Kidwell, etc. is an excellent one. They will stay smaller than a tea, but will be more substantial than a polyantha. The other thought is to pick a tea that is hardy for your area that gets fairly large, and making that one a focal point, with a few small polyantha or floribunda types. I would still mix a few other plants in, as it will make the area look like nature put it all there. You have the perfect spot for a lovely garden.

There is a small camellia that grows as a little mound called Shi Shi Gashira. I don't know if she grows in your zone, but it's a lovely camellia to use as an accent. She can take a great deal of sun and has been totally disease and pest free for me.

Sandy

If camellias really like acidic soil, they would not be a fit for me. My soil is highly alkaline. The azaleas, which I grew fine up North, look terrible for me. I could stick the azaleas under the tree and see if they improve, as they are in too much sun now. But they do like acidic soil.

I am very confused as to what to do. From the middle part of that row to the end, it gets TONS of sun. It will not be a problem. The only question is the first quarter of the space where it is shady by early afternoon.

If the area that is shaded by early afternoon still gets about 6 hours of direct sun, you will most likely be able to grow some hybrid musk roses, or some of the more shade tolerant polyanthas. If it's less than 6 hours I wouldn't put any rose there, unless you want to struggle with disease and twigs and canes dying back. I also think I recall Jeri Jennings commenting that certain hybrid musks do not like alkaline soils. Maybe she'll chime back in, or you can e-mail her for details.

Since you have said that your soil is highly alkaline, I am assuiming you had a professional soil test done? If not, it would help you greatly, as it will tell you exactly where your soil stands. A test I had submitted to an Ag place (no longer doing testing unfortunately) even asked what kind of plants I had or wanted to grow in that area, and told me specifically what to add. Depending on the severity of the alkalionity, it may be possible to "correct" it to some degree. Otherwise, you are best researching what plants will thrive in the conditions you already have. This is where many native plants come into the picture, and many natives are truly beautiful.

You can also grow many plants in pots for a long time. Whenever I see pictures of lush gardens, many of them have a few potted plants tucked in and the effect is lovely. I may try it myself. That may be an idea if there is a plant you really want to grow, but the soil isn't right for it.

I can picture a large speciman rose towards the center of your bed. I can also picture some native plants somewhere in there that will attract birds and butterflies. A birdhouse and/or feeder, along with a beautiful birdbath would give a nice feel to your garden. Something like that may even work in the shadier areas. I was able to get some really good Florida native plant books and I am amazed at how many native plants will grow in both sun and shade. My books also state whether the plants need acid soil, or if it isn't fussy about soil, and how much moisture it needs, drought tolerance, etc.

My advice, and I am speaking from personal experience here, is to not rush the process. I have the type of personality that wants everything complete all at once, so I can dust my hands off and move on to the next project. Well....I think maybe God made me love gardening to teach me a lesson here about slowing down and chilling out a little. Don't rush things or you won't be happy. Keep asking questions and keep looking at the area in question. Look through some books for ideas. Start with planting one nice shrub or rose where you know that you want a speciman. That's a start. Pretty soon something will jump in your head and you'll know where to put the next one.

If I were you, I'd start in the sunny area, as it sounds as though you have a good idea of what you want there. Don't worry about getting the shadier area planted just yet. It'll come to you. You can make that it's own little nook within the garden. ...

I have a few roses that get just barely 6 hours of morning sun--shade by early afternoon--and they do just fine. Again, I am in Northern CA, so this might be quite different from your experience, but I would think that sun is sun. I also love Perle d'Or. I planted 13 plants of PdO at my sister's house to make a nice four foot hedge in front of her home. We have alkaline soil here. It will have to be pruned to stay that size here, but your area might keep it more in line. It is one of my favorite roses--a peachy-apricot button center with frilly ribbons all around. If poly-teas will work better for you, you should not hesitate to try PdO. It all depends on which roses will do well in your climate.

Here's a website that might help also; it's called Woodland Rose Garden from a zone 6 garden, near Cincinnati. I've found it to be really helpful; it has some great articles and information.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kent Krugh's Woodland Rose Garden

Sherry, I'm not sure whether it's my alkaline conditions the Pemberton HMs don't like, or something else.
SOME of them do really well here, and others don't.
Jeri Jennings is doing really well, and Thomas's 'Bishop Darlington' is a wonder for the ages. But some of the Pembertons really struggle. I don't know why.

Jeri

I recently saw Dapple Dawn at a garden tour and it was beautiful, The back yard had some shade but these plants were airy and light. They stood about 5 ft maybe 6 ft tall. It's an Austin, not a tea, but check it out.
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Here is a link that might be useful: Dapple Dawn

I'm with Duchesse, this is ideal for ground-cover roses-- Electric Blanket, Seafoam, Lovely Fairy or The Fairy. I've not grown it, but Coral Flower Carpet is a nice color and it's in the no-spray garden at the zoo lookin' good. I grow Seafoam and both Fairys-- no spray--in less than 6 hours sun & they are blooming well.

Sandy, you are right that eventually it will come to me. I did do several soil analyses when we moved here but not that area. Maybe I should do one to see if I need sulfur.

I had a ding moment when I realized that in the shadier areas, provided the roots are not all encompassing, I would want hydrangeas. I love the look of hydrangeas and roses, but in this climate, hydrangeas only like morning sun, and roses, of course full sun. A mophead and a lacecap would fit nicely.

I wish I could see more roses in person but most of our society members grow HTs and floribundas, some with a few OGRs.

And Duchesse, thanks for the link, that is very helpful!

Oh, I LOVE hydrangeas! There aren't many that will grow here very well, but I'm planning on researching it out. There is a native Florida one, but it needs tons of shade, and I don't have what I would consider dense shade. I have just one spot under two palm trees that doesn't really get direct sun, only bright light, but I planted a baby antique camellia there. I don't know if I should move it or not, as it looks ecstatically heppy there and is growing like a weed. However, most camellias need some sun in order to bloom well. I may ask the man that propagated it what he thinks. If it'll bloom in that spot, I'm not going to move it.

I can't wait to see how your garden evolves. It sounds as though you've got ideas starting to come to life. I'm glad that you are open minded. When I had the mind set that I HAD to grow roses in my shadier spots, I failed miserably. They were not happy or very healthy for long, and that made ME unhappy. Now that I work with the conditions I have, and plant accordingly, gardening is so much more enjoyable. It's opened up a whole new world. The roses that are planted where they belong, instead of where I dictated they go, are absolutely stunning. They are babies, and they are taking off like crazy, with beautiful foliage as well as blooms. I don't spray either.

One of my old gardening magazines that I was browsing through today showed a planting of beautiful shrub roses. The text that went with it stated that the roses weren't so lush and beautiful because of the soil. They were that way because of the available sunshine.

It'll be fun to see what roses you select for your garden, and the companions to go with them.

Sandy

Great idea with the hydrangeas and roses in a mixed border. Hydrangeas Plus has a great online catalog, and also carries large 3 year old plants if you want to spend the $$. I recently got a 3 year old Veitchii, and it was excellent size, in good shape. As I am sure you know, Vintage also carries a bunch. I think hydrangeas have lots of varieties to explore.

This is just my opinion, so for whatever it's worth if you will, but you have to be careful what you call shade, and i would be careful with hydrangeas, i would prefer more of a peegee or limelight or ones that can take sun. I thought i had shade also until i planted hydrangeas. they all died. i've since planted some peegee and so far so good. i have discovered that even though i have full grown shade trees, i don't have shade. lilacs would probably do well there, with the sun and alkaline soil, and also well drained. I'm wondering about your alkaline soil though, as they say mf doesn't like alkaline soil, maybe why the pemberton's don't do so well in ca?? but i have been travelling through ky and wv here recently and have never seen so much mf, especially in wv. I like the old dependables like roses,lilacs peonies and historic iris's. maybe a few prairie flowers thrown in for good measure, like black-eyed susans.

I guess I could think about peonies there too. Maybe some singles that don't need staking. Can they be grown in 4-5 hours of sun? My other peonies get at least 7 hours.