Deerslayer,

I spoke with 2 service techs at the local dealership and they both said that the K46 on the LA 130 and the K46 on the X300 were different. This was also confirmed by a person that I spoke with at John Deere. This was my original question when the second LA130 was not performing.
The only thing that I have been able to get out of anybody for sure is that the two transmission are different and the X series uses a heavier duty version. I went to the selector tool on the JD website and entered my criteria. Specified an X300 for slope and hills, few obstacles and occasional light hauling. I know what the specs say but the difference in operation is more than a little. It is huge. Unless it was a fluke that I got hold of two LA130s with the identical problem, it does not make sense unless the transmission is different. I looked at the 2 transimissions on the different mowers in the showroom and they did look different. Outside of that I don't know. If anyone else reading this knows the answer I would like to know.

Bruno

Thanks again. I agree that the logical conclusion is that the K46 in the X300 is built differently than the K46 in the LA130.

I sent an email through the JD website asking if the X300 has more pulling power than the LA130. I'll post the response if I get one.

BTW, congrats on your new tractor!

-Deerslayer

Here's my response from JD.

Dear Mr. Deerslayer:

Thank you for contacting our Web site. We appreciate your interest in our products. The pulling or towing capacity will be different for these machines. The towing capacity is the weight of the tractor plus the weight of the operator and any ballast or additional weights. The X300 Select series tractor is a heavier duty tractor and will be able to tow more than the LA130 lawn tractor.

If we can be of further assistance, please call the Customer Contact Center at 1-800-537-8233. Our center is open 8:00 a.m. - 7:00 p.m. EST, Monday - Friday and 9:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. EST, Saturday.

Thank you,

Sha'Kesha
John Deere Customer Contact Center

I was disappointed in the above response because I asked specifically about pulling power up a slope and whether there is a difference between the two K46s. Also, when I have a technical question about tractors, I don't like to receive information from a woman in customer service. I prefer an engineer (a female engineer is okay).

Based on her response, the LA130 would climb hills better if it had suitcase weights and the 400 lb guy from another thread driving it. I understand the braking power point but it has no relevance going up a hill only down.

I may try the phone number tomorrow.

-Deerslayer

If the K46 in the X300 is "beefier" than the K46 in the LA130, tuff torq's website gives absolutely no hint of it. Whatever the changes, I can't imagine they'd modify the case and call it the same tranny, which leaves the K46 with a miniscule capacity of 1.85L, compared to 2.45L for the K58, and 4.6L in my GT225's K71.

Few things annoy me more than when you solicit information from the proper source and they blow smoke up your a$$ in the absence of any true expertise. Standing next to my V22 at an airshow, if someone were to ask me the differences between the Rolls Royce AE1107C powering the Osprey and the General Electric T58-16 in the helicopter it replaced, I'd tell them all about the Full Authority Digital Engine Control vs. the open-loop Engine Condition Control System, rather than just saying "It's 21st century technology." Even as a college kid working in a tire shop, when people asked my why Michelins cost twice as much as Generals, I'd bore them to death with my dissertation on polyamide belts, Radial XSE technology, specific quality control practices, etc. It wasn't that I cared that much about tires, it was just my job, and I owed it to my customers to know the product I was selling.
I sent an email to Tuff-torq customer service because all these "I don't know why it's better; I just know it's better" responses we're receiving are bothering me. Maybe tomorrow I'll have a reply from someone who speaks in numbers.

Here is a link that might be useful: capacity

The only thing I could find was a K46 type I and a type II reference. One with an integrated reservoir housing and the other with a low profile housing.

K46 Specs

Comparison Chart

Here's the response from JD, I got.

Thank you for contacting our Web site.
The LA130 and the X300 have 2 different series K46 transaxels. The LA130 uses the Tuff Torq HD K46 and the X300 uses the Tuff Torq® K46BR Transaxle. Please speak with the dealer for more specific information. In general the X300 is a higher series lawn tractor.

If we can be of further assistance, please call the Customer Contact Center at 1-800-537-8233. Our center is open 8:00 a.m. - 6:00 p.m. EST, Monday - Friday and 9:00 a.m. - 3:00 p.m. EST, Saturday.

Thank you,

Laurie
John Deere Customer Contact Center

Vox, thanks for the post, however, the real question is still unanswered. That is, "Does the K46 in the X300 produce more torque than the K46 in the LA130?". About a minute ago, I submitted that question to the JD web site. We'll see what comes back.

-Deerslayer

I went ahead submitted an email to TuffTorq also. They do list the two different models in their catalog but, it doesn't give any specifications. Hopefully, their customer service will know.

K46 Catalog

Vox, after comparing both sets of drawings, the only significant difference that I see is that the upper case of the K46BR (X300) has cooling fins and the K46A does not. I'm wondering if the reason that the K46BR doesn't loose climbing power is because of better heat dissipation. That would explain why it pulls better than the K46A when hot. Maybe we'll find out tomorrow.

-Deerslayer

I printed out the drawings for both the K46HD/K46HD1 (LA130) and the K46BR (X300). They all seem to have the fan you mentioned however, besides a bolt/screw/pin here or there, the biggest thing I could see were the two different "Control Arm" pieces (part #52).

As you can see the K46BR (Control Arm A) has a different make up from the two K46HDs (Control Arm D). I'm assuming this is, what they meant by "beefier". It does appear to be a more solid piece over the HDs.

With that said, and not being a meachanical person, I did a search on "what the hell does a control arm do?". From my findings and assumptions, I'm lead to believe that this allows for greater stability over the HD version.

The control arms function is to manage the motion of the wheels in relation to the body of your car. Two points on the control arm( at the bottom" of the A) attach to a vehicles frame whereas the third point attaches to the spindle. If these control arms are not developed, you and your passengers will soon find yourselves feeling sick because of too much movement of your vehicle especially when traversing rough roads not to mention the wear and tear that worn out control arms do to the rest of your suspension system.

There is no suspension at the back of the K46 or the tractor it comes in. It is hard-bolted to the frame.

The difference between the K46HD and K46BR are all superficial. The guts are 100% identical.

The suffix letters define whether the tranny has an external reservoir or not, what gear ratio is has (for wheel diameter sizing), details of the fwd/rev actuator, brake actuator, fan or no-fan, etc....

So the only thing I can conclude, is that of all the K46's that TT produces, some of them are closer to the outer bounds of the torque tolerance - and those, which may normally be "rejected" are actually sold, for a lower price, as "lower-grade" units.

Having said that, my L120 has a K46HD, and I can pull a plug-aerator with 200lbs of lead-weights on it, up the hill in my back yard.

Go figure.

Vox, I wasn't referring to the fan in my previous post. I was referring to the cooling fins that appear to be part of the upper case casting. The K46A has a smooth upper case. The upper case of the K46BR appears to have cooling fins.

Cooling fins increase the surface area of an object. By increasing the case's surface area, the case's ability to dissipate heat is increased.

Bruno stated, "The problem with the LA130 was that after about 30 minutes of use it just did not have any pulling power".

My theory is that after 30 minutes on Bruno's slopes the LA130's hydro oil became too hot and the K46A's pulling power faded as a result.

The hotter hydro oil becomes, the thinner it gets (until it burns). Hydro pump efficiency diminishes as hydro oil thins. The result is a decrease in pulling power.

-Deerslayer

Sorry Deerslayer, I meant to say cooling fins. The LA130 has the K46HD, not the K46A, per the John Deere response. In both drawings, the casing for the K46HD and the K46BR are the same. You're right about the K46A having a different upper casing.

Vox, I agree. The HD and BR units both have cooling fins.

I don't see a significant difference in the drawings. The specs don't indicate a difference either. Maybe Wally is right. After testing, the high torque K46s are stamped BR and the low torque units are stamped HD.

Hopefully, JD or TT can provide the answer.

-Deerslayer

One other possibility - maybe there is a systemic issue with the belt tensioner on the LA's... I know I had to modify the one on my L120 - by hooking up the spring diagonally to the frame, instead of straight back to a cross bar. The diagonal put the tensioner under higher pressure, to keep the belt tighter. I had the problem of the belt slipping under heavy loads. But there was a hint of a burning smell when it happened, so I would guess that the other LA drivers would notice it too.

Maybe the X300 tensioner is a better design though?...

wally2q,

so your L120 then can pull hills is modified?

yes - it's modified. I modified it so that the belt wouldn't slip.

In my books, that's not a mod... that's a repair... and I suppose it needed the repair straight out of the box, although I did not notice the problem until about a year after I bought it....

The John Deere specs indicate top forward speed for the LA130 to be 5.5 MPH while the X300s is listed at 5.3MPH.

Assuming the same engine RPM and K46 ratio, the speed difference could be attributed to the slightly smaller tires on the X300.

If this were correct, a little more "grunt" (torque) would be available at the rear wheels of the X300.

Mike

This is the response I got from Tuff-torq:

Chris, In order for Tuff Torq to answer you questions clearly, our Technical Engineer would like to speak to you on the phone.
If you would email me your phone number, we will contact you and answer all of your questions.

Apparently the differences between the variations of the K46 are too in-depth to put into writing.

I too sent an inquiry to Tuff Torq, and they also wanted my phone number. I called and this is basically what I was told.

I talked to Deborah from Tuff Torque's sales group. The info she gave me follows:

JDs 130 and 140 have the same tranny - K46BE. The 300 has also has the K46 but with different specs (I think it the model was K46BR). Apparently there are internal differences between the models - K46BE has reduction ratio for 22" tires. The K46BR? has gears for 20" tires. Both models have the same housing style that includes built in expansion reservoirs. Some differences externally are axle length, control lever, brake lever and pulley.

I was told that the K46 in the JD 300 is not beefier than the K46 in the 130 and 140 tractors.

JD 304, 320, 324 and 340 have the K58 tranny which apparently is stronger and will be taking the place of Tuff Torque's current K62. The K58 is 27% stronger than the K46 (K58 has 217 foot lb rated torque while K46 has only 171 ft lb).

The K58 has 1" axles - K46 has 3/4" axles.

The K58 has a charge pump that reduces aeration of the oil that increases the life of the tranny.

I hope I took all this down accurately.

Give them a call if you need to check on any of this stuff. Seemed like good people to me.

Nice de1fan...

I got the same email as you and marineguy. I started to send my phone# but, I guess you already did all the leg work.

So... would it be safe to say, for $1k more, you're paying for a better engine and cosmetics in the LA130 vs X300 saga?

For $1k more you not only get a better engine, but better longevity and enjoyment of operation.
The engine is obviously the biggest upgrade, but you also get the closed hood design (quieter), ball bearings in the front wheels, bolted-on deck spindles with zerk fittings, a heavier deck, a heavier frame, a foot lift with twice the adjustment of the LA series, a larger tank, multi-trac tires, and a more comfortable seat.
Remember, just because these tractors closely resemble garden tractors, neither are built to pull anything. Judging them based on that single factor is like trying to decide between a Saturn Vue and a Honda Pilot based on their rock-crawling ability.
Either one of these mowers would suffer an early death at my hands, which is why I took the same amount of money and put it into a like-new used GT. With a K71 transaxle rated at 405 ft-lbs, the only time I ever approached the limits of the transmission were while towing a cart loaded with a ton of sand up the slope of my back yard.

MarineGuy has it right. If you want to tow heavy stuff and/or climb steep slopes, a GT class tractor is the way to go.

De1fan, thanks for doing the legwork and taking good notes. I haven't received a response for my last question from JD. Maybe the gals in Customer Services forwarded my question to an engineer. 8^)

I think we've established that the K46HD is functionally the same as an K46BR. Wally's theories are looking better each day. If there is indeed a performance difference, I vote for a difference in the drive systems (pulleys, tensioner, and v-belt).

-Deerslayer

I met a guy this past Friday who used to be a rep for John Deere. He stated that the specs of the transmission on the entry level mowers were different than those on the X300. The amount of torque supplied to the rear axle is where the difference is made not so much to the longevity of the transmission. Thanks everybody for your input on this subject. I have completely mowed my lawn 3 times now with the X300 and can tell you that the difference in it and the LA130 is MORE than noticeable. The 2 times I have been back to the dealer for information and to order a mulching kit, I have spoken with the repair shop techs and notice that there are more LA series models in the back for repairs than other models. When I asked about it they said that they just break down more and need more service work than the better products. The difference in the 2 transmissions? I honestly do not think that anyone knows or intends to tell us, and furthermore it EVEN seems to be a point of contention with everybody I talk to at John Deere. I like my new 300 and plan on keeping it, but I am disatisfied with the amount of disinformation that I have gotten throughout the buying process of this mower. Still no answer from John Deere regarding the specs of the K46 between the 2 machines just what has been posted here. I will post the answer if and when I get it.

Bruno

bruno,
I think you are trying to justify to us the higher dollar amount of the X300 over the LA130.
You really don't have to do this, if your smile is bigger, thats the trump.
For me the difference in the two mentioned tractors is one is built as entry level mower to be sold as a exclusive JD Dealer mower for a premium dollar amount, the other is built as a entry level mower to be sold in the box stores as well as a JD dealership for a competitive price with box store mowers.
They are both light duty mowers and nothing more. (chevy-ford-chrysler argument) Or for us old guys (Farmall red vs JD green). I guess you can say JD won since Farmall is no more, yeh yeh I know red is still here.
But bruno if your smile'n that is what should be important to you, not what we think. Happy mow'n!

it's like this...a lexus and a toyota are similar in many ways. you pay a little more for the lexus and you get some extra refinement in the details. same with the x series. just the exterior alone has a nicer look and feel to it. regardless of the inner workings. whether or not you want this is up to the individual. some value it some don't.

"I have spoken with the repair shop techs and notice that there are more LA series models in the back for repairs than other models."

I bet JD sells more LA series tractors than any other series. You really need the failure rate (number of failures/quantity sold) to draw any conclusions.

-Deerslayer

once again Deerslayer hits the nail on the head....

the number of LAs out there is huge compared to the X300's.... it's like saying: there are a lot more chevy's parked in repair shops then there are cadillacs... sure....

Anyway, regardless what anyone says about torque differences between K46hd and K46br - the trannies are all the same, in that once you consider a different wheel size, the "force" exerted on the ground, by the wheel - which is the propelling force, is abou the same. Gear ratios on these particular tranny, are adjusted for wheel size - not for pulling power.

So once again - you WILL NOT hear anything from deere or TT, because both trannies are 'supposed to perform' exactly the same. Any observation to the contrary, is admittance on the part of JD or TT, of one of 2 things: a quality escape in the tranny (a bad apple), or bad design (slipping belt etc...)

There is no magic to it guys. It's just: belts, pulleys, pumps and gears.

As sherlock holmes once said: if you eliminate all other possibilities, the one that is remaining, however unlikely, is the answer.

I just went over to the JD site to see, if there were any new specials and, maybe this is a typo... but, the new "2008" X304 model shows a K46 tranny, under the specs.

Let's hope its a typo...

"the new "2008" X304 model shows a K46 tranny, under the specs."

...if true, this is another example of the unrelenting shift to lower price and lower quality.

-Deerslayer

Wow, if that's true I'm very glad to have the K58 in my rig.

Unless they've discontinued it for performance reasons; which would just suck.

My neighbor just bought his first riding mower--X300! He's proud as a peacock. That Kawi V-twin purrs like a kitten. He said he paid just about $3,000 after tax, which would have put it $100 below retail at $2800. I would have thought he could have done better this time of year in coastal NC, where the grass is about done growing and we never get more than 1/4" of snow which melts as soon as the sun rises. I don't forsee them selling many tractors between now and April.

My grass hasn't received the memo yet. That's why I'm looking at another 3.5hrs pushing a lawn mower this weekend. LOL..

But, if I can just hold out till the Jan/Feb timeframe...HOPEFULLY...it'll be a slow time for my local JD dealership. Or, better yet, maybe they'll have a big sale around Christmas.

But, with my luck, Raleigh will have some insane/unforeseen/neverbeenseen non stop snowfall for Dec/Jan/Feb.

My hybrid bermuda in the front stopped growing about three weeks ago. The common bermuda in my back yard is still growing very, very slowly. I cut it this weekend just because I missed cutting grass. My neighbor's been going on and on about how I need to take advantage of this "big sale" JD is having and get an X500 to replace my GT225. I told him he's nuts; my GT225 is as much tractor as any suburban micro-landowner needs. It turned into one of those "why my tractor is better than yours" discussions (in good fun) which ended up in a backyard drag race. I tried to get my wife to stand outside and start us but she refused to stoop to our level of immaturity. So opting for the self-start, I let him get a head start. My GT smoked his X300 by at least five tractor lengths over a 200' dash. He was completely baffled at how my single cylinder Kohler was so much faster than his V-twin Kawi. I explained to him that the difference in wheel sizes was the main factor but he was still convinced there was something wrong with his tractor. I should have taken it easy, maybe made it a little closer. Next time I'll have to engage my tiller to make it a fair match.

GT: Garden Tractor or Gran Turismo?

He'll probably have a X500 delivered tomorrow and you'll have another race on your hands.

What have you done to the poor guy?

I've been reading with interest the postings and have decided, and convinced my wife, that we should go straight from our Honda Isy 16inch to a X300. It's taken two year to get to this point. Before I take the plunge can I have some advice on which deck to go for. Going from a 16inch no mulching, bagged push mower (imported from England - in case you're wondering) even a 38 or 42 would be great. But, that still gives me choices. I want a great lawn and have been advised by friend to mulch, whatever that is. The dealer suggested that the pure mulch deck was a bad option as it is less versitle. Any comments?

IMO the dealer gave you good advise. If you don't have any storage or space limitations I would go with the regular 42" deck. You can mulch (with the optional mulch kit), discharge or even bag your grass. Plus if down the road you decide to sell, resale on the 42" would be better.

One advantage the 42" has over the 38" deck is that you can trim closer and it sticks out past the wheels.

Hope this helps, lmy

Here is pics of the mulch kit installed on a 42' deck.

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I purchased the mulch kit and used it to manage the leaves this past fall. $72 from my dealer. It left the lawn looking like it had been raked. The best part was that it lengthened the season I had to use the mower. I am sure that there are other fine choices of premium mowers but the X 300 should at least be considered by anyone looking to buy. Feature for feature and the service that I have gotten, I would buy it again if I had it to do over. Can't wait until I can start mowing again.

Thanks for the comments. We went for a 42inch X300 with mulch kit fitted, it should arrive this week. I'll have to wash out the garage in readyness. I got nervous at the dealers when he showed my wife a L series. It took a long Starbucks to convince her of the benefits. By the way the dealer had a great grill in the showroom, nice. Looking forward to cutting season. Just need to get those ridges and dips in the lawn filled up.

vox87 said "I just went over to the JD site to see, if there were any new specials and, maybe this is a typo... but, the new "2008" X304 model shows a K46 tranny, under the specs. Let's hope its a typo..."

JD website still shows K46 for the X304. So was this a downgrade for 2008 after all?

Well, first cut has taken place. The mulch kit was dealer fitted but looks different from the photos above, as there is no block on the side discharge (should I check this out with the dealer?). Having only used a 16inch push gas mower, it's quite a big change to use a fancy smancy tractor. It took several passes before I figured out the blades weren't on! It's also shown up the big dips I have on my lawn and the two holes! I must fill those up and toss in some grass seed. The plug in hose thingy worked great. I'm just thinking about smoothing out some of those tight bends in the plastic border that separates the gravel from the grass. I will have to reset some portions. Can anyone tell me what I should be aiming at when setting the plastic border height? Are all plastic borders the same? Thanks.

The pic above has the plastic discharge chute removed. Lift up the chute and look under it. I'll bet it's there, you just can't see it. With the discharge chute removed and the mulch kit installed you can trim on both sides when mowing.

I'm having a problem with a JD stx 38
I have a good battery but when I turn the switch on I get no light on the dash and when I try to start it it will not turn over. I can get the starter to turn over by jumping from the red hot lead at the starter over to the blue lead on the opp side of the starter but it won't fire. I have check the switch for resitance at the off, on and start pos and all seems as it should. Any ideas Thanks mti

If Craftsman can put in a K66 hydro in a $2500 tractor, I think JD should figure a way to put them in the 300 series. It would make it a slam dunk buy even if it cost a few hundred dollars more. I just bought a Cub because JD does not make a $4000 GT.

Just bought the x300 about a month ago. Love this machine. I have about an acre and half to mow with slight slope in front and mows this very easily. I also use the 10p cart and have no problems with the k46 transmission or traction. The engine runs very smooth and I really believe that the k46 vs. k58 transmission isn't that big of a difference if you aren't going to be pulling and plowing some heavy duty weight. Also I drove the LA series and there is definitely a difference between the x300 and La series. I am completely satisfied with this machine and wouldn't worry about the transmission one bit (again unless you are doing some heavy duty pulling/plowing).

bruno are you still happy with your X300? Any whinning from the tranny? Any break downs? Do you pull any carts with dirt?
Thank You

I am very happy with my X300. No Transmission whining unless put under load going uphill with a loaded cart. I also weigh 350 lbs. so I guess some minor whining is to be expected in this situation. The cut is fantastic. I have about 30 hours total on it and have changed the oil 3 times. I just think that is cheap insurance. I have not had a single problem but realize that I have a Premium Lawn Mower and NOT a Garden Tractor. If I had it to do over I would have gone with the X304 just because it was not that much extra to upgrade.

Any machine using the K46 tranny for other then easy mowing is in for disappointment. It will not last. JD will not back it past 2 years, and it will fail. Opt for the larger K66. Horsepower doesn't matter that much, but the tranny/drive system does.