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doodlebee_gw

Something strange has happened to my roses.

doodlebee
12 years ago

First off, I want to say that I have a brown thumb. I usually kill everything eventually. I can't call it "black" because that means I kill things immediately - but I, apparently, have more of the "long lingering death" touch. I keep things alive until they eventually dwindle to nothing.

So I suspect my "brown thumb" has done something. Either that, or a neighbor stole over into my yard, dug up my rosebush, and replaced it with another one. Which would be odd.

So here's the thing: about 5 years ago, my kids got me two rosebushes for mother's day. One is a Billy Graham pink tea rose bush, the other - I can't remember exactly what it's called, but the roses are blue. (They're actually pink, but when you put them next to the Billy Grahams, you can see the blue in the roses - they're sort of a pale lavender color).

I can say this, the June bugs LOVE the blue roses. They completely ignore my Billy Grahams, even though the two bushes are right next to each other! But that's for another forum.

Anyway, the blue roses typically bloom first, and they started doing so last week. The Billy Grahams usually start blooming a week or so later - which they did do (I got my first crop this morning). However, here's the "weird thing": usually the Billys are quite big - probably 4" or so across. However this time, they are fairly small, maybe 2-3" across. The stems are also usually thicker/sturdier. The roses are growing off a new "cane" (Sorry if I'm not using the correct terminology) that sprouted from my old canes that I pruned last year after the last crop was taken. This new cane was floppy, not as sturdy, and we had to stake it so it would stay off the ground, as it was bending over from it's own weight.

The other REALLY weird thing is the roses are bright freaking RED. They used to be this soft blushy pale pink color (this is *exactly* what they usually look like: http://www.gtgrowinggrounds.com/billygraham.html) - and now they are like red velvet. The blooms are also opened up larger than usual - they used to have this light "bud" like center, but these blooms are so open you can touch the pollen inside with no problem.

So is this my "brown thumb" at work? Is it slowly dying? It's like a whole new rosebush. Or is it just this new "cane" bit and it's some oddity that will go away as it gets stronger? Or did a neighbor, indeed, steal my Billys and replace them with this thing? I've never known a flower to suddenly change so drastically.

Comments (17)

  • karl_bapst_rosenut
    12 years ago

    Not your brown thumb. Billy died and the root stock on which it was grafted is growing. The root stock is a bright freaking RED (your description) with the flowers blooming in clusters. It blooms once a year in spring. The rest of the year it'll grow long vigorous canes but no flowers.
    I don't advise pruning off canes in the fall. Wait until spring and prune off dead and damaged canes. The severe winter experienced in most of the country caused lots of tender rose varieties to die.
    BTW, Billy Graham is only rated hardy to zone 7b with a minimum temperature of 5-10 degrees above zero. Billy Graham is not a tea rose. It's a hybrid tea, a different type than a tea.

  • michaelg
    12 years ago

    The red roses are of the rootstock variety 'Dr. Huey.' Your plant was created by grafting BG tissue onto Dr.H roots at a point marked by a swelling called the bud union. In zone 6 the bud union should be slightly buried or else protected during winter by a mound of soil.

    Canes produced from below the bud union will be of Dr.H., a climbing rose that blooms only in June with the flowers you describe. It may be that the BG part has frozen out permanently. If any undamaged BG canes remain, they can be salvaged by digging down and stripping out the DrH canes where they join the rootstock.

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  • michaelg
    12 years ago

    Cros-posted with Karl, sorry for the duplication.

  • jerijen
    12 years ago

    Regard this as an opportunity to get a new rose -- one that is rated to stand up better to your winters.

    Jeri

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    12 years ago

    Maybe try a own- root rose, they can die to the ground and still come back true to VARIETY...
    Maybe try cold hardy roses.
    Or as suggested, bury the grafted bud union deeper.

  • doodlebee
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Oh! Okay! As you can see, I'm terribly upset by this ;) I actually *did* bury the big bulbous part well below the ground (as per instructions), and there's huge canes left of it still there with growth on it, just no buds yet - well, there's really small ones, but they're still green. The Billy tends to bloom right around this time, and then again in the fall (which is why I pruned it - I just take the crop off and let the rest stay - dead things get snipped off in the spring.) My husband's interested in seeing if any of the buds that are on the older canes will bloom pink. I *was* wondering if this past winter had something to do with it - we had the worst winter I've ever seen since I moved up here, the snow was so deep that for quite a while you couldn't see the rosebushes at all (and they are both taller than my kids) - we couldn't even open our front door for 2 months. (My mother - who *does8 have a green thumb - told me I shouldn't be concerned, since the snow acted as a sort of "insulator" and was sort of protecting them.)

    Thanks for telling me why it's doing what it's doing - I feel better. :) I'll let it ride for the rest of the season, and if it doesn't get any better by early fall, I'll do something with it. (I hesitate to actually dig it up and toss it though - it's still alive, and pretty, after all - just not what I'm used to!) Maybe I can still work with it and make it a bit stronger.

    Thanks so much :) I do hope that one day soon, I can coax my brown thumb to green and get better at this :)

  • doodlebee
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I should also add - I just looked up these Dr Huey's, and yep - that's exactly what these roses look like. And they are climbing roses! Nice! (I love climbing roses.) This explains a lot. They also look like a nice, hardy rose for here, so I do think I will keep 'em - maybe I can propagate some more of them for the rest of our yard - someday I plan to figure this "gardening" thing out and have a yard my neighbors will cry over with envy. (It's definitely not there yet though - I think they cry over it now, but it's not because of envy, but more about some "property value" thing LOL)

    Thanks again all :)

  • diane_nj 6b/7a
    12 years ago

    No, no, it doesn't get better! You don't want to encourage Dr. Huey! They will not coexist together, Dr. Huey is stronger and will take over.

    You have to dig down to the base of the cane where the red roses are growing and rip it off at the base, scraping off any remaining cane. If you leave it, eventually you will be left with ONLY Dr. Huey, your Billy Graham will die off.

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    12 years ago

    In the right climate and spot, 'Dr Huey' can be a nice rose. It only blooms once, in springtime. That is not going to be to everyone's satisfaction, so only you can decide if you want that or not. as Diane says if you don't pull out the Dr. Huey part it will take over and BG will soon be gone.

    Please don't get discouraged. Gardening is just a matter of practice and experimentation. The really expert horticulturalists will tell you they've killed more plants than you could ever imagine. Join a local gardening group, get some tips from a neighbor who has a beautiful garden and is an expert, and you will be well on your way to a beautiful garden that you love to spend time in.

  • diane_nj 6b/7a
    12 years ago

    BTW, I have a lovely specimen of Dr. Huey growing out of Classic Touch. It will be dispatched on Sunday. Dr. Huey gets horrible powerdery mildew in this area.

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    12 years ago

    And everywhere else, Dr. Huey gets horrible blackspot after its spring bloom--really, really bad!

    Kate

  • york_rose
    12 years ago
  • doodlebee
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Hi again,

    Thanks all, for your input. I just wanted to come back and say I did cut down the Dr. Hueys. I basically pruned the rosebush as far to the ground as I could get. (It was really bushy, so it was hard to see!) Once I got the "bushiness" ut away, i was surprised to find that something has been digging at my rosebush. I can see the root ball. When I planted this rosebush (some 5 years ago ro thereabouts) I definitely planted it so the root ball was a good 10 inches below the surface. But now, I can see that something has been digging away at the base of my rosebush, and the root ball is, indeed, exposed. So you all were right on that pont!

    So now I ask you wise rosebush-caretakers, what do I do?

    There's still one very strong cane of the Billy's left (I can tell it's the Billy because the cane is woody and very thick - the Hueys were slim and bendy. Even the leaves were different.) so I left it intact. It's got a lot of green on it, and it's very strong, so I hesitate to cut it off, as it's the only cane remaining on the rosebush. However there are no buds on it (I think I see the *beginnings* of a couple of them, but I'm not 100% sure if they are buds or more leaves.)

    How would you all recommend I proceed? It's obviously still a healthy plant, and I'm 100% sure the "Billy" part of is is not dead (yet). But I don't want to dig it up unnecessarily (especially when, I believe next year, I will HAVE to dig it up, as we are putting in a deck exactly where it is now). The plant is only as high as my knees - would it be a good idea to dig it up and put it in a large container to overwinter inside? (and if I do, should I be sure to scrape off the Dr. Huey's completely, as previously recommended?)

    If I do that, do you think it would also be good to do it to the rosebush next to it? (The purple ones that the June bugs and caterpillars just adore?) perhaps putting them both in large, separate containers will help alleviate the issues they are having *now* so when I replant them after the deck is done, they'll grow stronger?

    Any advice you all can give would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

  • michaelg
    12 years ago

    In any case, if you hope to save Billy, you must remove the Huey canes at point of origin.

    The issue with Billy is whether the graft or bud union has been injured or killed by winter cold--if it was exposed, it may have been. If there are no Billy flowers this year, that's a bad sign.

    Overwintering potted roses is rather complicated--you can't just bring them in the house. I don't see why Billy would be expected to do any better in a pot than in the garden soil.

  • doodlebee
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I assumed there were no actual flowers because the Hueys had taken over. (Don't know if that's true, but that's what I figured!)

    It's not that I want it to do any *better* by overwintering, just that I don't want to dig up, remove the Hueys at the root ball, replant and then have to dig it up again next summer when we put the deck in. I just wanted to know *if* they did get put in a pot, would it definitely kill them, or would they pretty much be the same as they are now. :)

  • michaelg
    12 years ago

    Well OK, you could water thoroughly, lift the plant when the sun isn't on it, remove the Huey canes thoroughly, examine the graft area, and pot up the Billy stump in a 7-gal. or bigger container. If Billy grows out, water around 2 gals every few days. In zone 6, you can overwinter outdoors by piling leaves around and over the entire pot after the plant is dormant but before severe freezes develop. You don't want to let the soil and rootball chill to 20 degrees or the roots could be killed. If you bring the plant indoors, it will get terrible spider mites, or if you put the dormant plant in the basement, it will wake up and spend its stored energy trying to grow in the dark.

  • karl_bapst_rosenut
    12 years ago

    doodlebee,
    Normally Dr Huey will grow from the root shank below the graft, not from the root ball. If cut back as you said you did, it will just branch out more. Cutting back makes matters worse. One canes will grow many.
    Each Dr Huey cane must be removed from its source of growth. This is done by gently removing the soil down to and below the cane where it's attached to the rootstock shank. Frirmly grasp the cane and pull down to tear it off. This removes it plus a portion of tissue where it was attached, completely removing it and any chance it will grow back.
    If the graft was planted below the surface, the portion of Billy above the graft and below the surface may have formed roots which will be Billy. If there are enough roots on Billy, you can separate it from the Dr. Huey root stock. I advise contacting a local expert rose grower for advice and assistance unless you fully understand what you're doing.
    You can locate the nearest rose society in your state by going to the ARS website and clicking on "Local Societies" at the top of the page or locate a Consulting Rosarian by clicking on "Need Advice"

    Here is a link that might be useful: ARS Website