I really wonder about the parentage of Aimee Vibert. The roundness of the buds, the dark pink/almost red staining on the outer petals, the strange fragrance--to me it seems different from the others somehow.

As far as deadheading. I think someone commented on this before, but I didn't give it much attention until I saw it happen myself. If you only remove the spent flowers but leave all the little stems of the cluster, new growth will emerge the the base of the stems. Do all noisettes do that? And what about polyanthas which also send up those candelabras?

Here, at least, Jacob Zeisz seems not to like it if you deadhead way down. I'm lazy about it, so I just ignore it for long periods. Then, when I HAVE to do something I cut off the retained dead blooms (and little hips) and remove only canes that are dead. That seems to make him happiest.

Setzer Noisette is a little less touchy, so I don't mind shaping that one. But I am very careful with Roseville, because it is so much smaller.

Aimee -- I have less experience of, as this plant is immature.

Jeri

Jeri,

These are great photos- and I love the pictures and the background/history behind these.

I started a rose from a cutting at the cemetery near my home - Paul identified it as a noisette- and it is cluster blooming like the ones you have pictured.

When this one blooms this year I will see if I can get a picture uploaded onto the boards.

Marleah

Thanks again, Jeri for your very useful posts for coastal rosarians. I've been tempted by Setzer Noisette, just have to find it now! I planted the Tea-Noisette Reve d'Or which you highly recommended, and it's a beauty, the first yellowish Tea-Noisette climber happy to grow in my coastal Los Angeles garden. It's so happy and vigorous, that I'm planting a second one.

Thanks for posting Jeri.

Three cheers for Noisettes. They are happy on the coast. I'm especially fond of Mrs. Woods Lavender Pink and Tutta's Pink although the Camptonville Cemetery Noisette is also winning my heart and is growing like gangbusters.

Oh yes, and the Tea Noisettes Reve d'Or and Allister Stella Grey are very happy here even in my part shade garden.

Diane

I've only recently gotten into the noisettes; I love the delicacy of their appearence. But I am finding them to be perhaps rather slow starters in my garden. I'm in the foothills of the Appenines, Tuscany, Italy. Hot, dry,neutral to alkaline soil...I'm guessing about a zone 8. Anyone else have the experience of them being a bit slow to take off?Any ideas on how to make them super-happy? bart

Bart -- They should do fine for you -- they tolerate our own alkaline conditions remarkably well. But if you are working with small, own-root plants -- yes. They ARE going to take a few years to "become all that the can be."

Because our conditions can be a little rough, we grow them up from band-size, to 1-G., to 5-G, before they go into the ground. Otherwise, we could just lose them in the weeds and iceplant. :-)

Jeri

Connie -- I wonder if we didn't start your plant ... :-)

Jeri

Jeri, your pictures and information are wonderful. I love the delicacy of the blooms and buds in your pictures.

My only two noisettes, 'Cato's Cluster' and 'Redoute's Red' have been very slow to bloom; RR is 3 and just starting and 'Cato's Cluster' is 2 this year and I've seen one small bloom on it, from last yet. No buds have shown up this year yet, either. I'm kinda encouraged to hear they're slow to build up also.

Gean

Gean -- Tell me more about Redoute's Red.

The only source appears to be RVR, and they offer NO information about it. I'm intrigued, and curious!

Jeri

A timely topic, Jeri. My noisettes are frustrating me, but maybe Blush Noisette will be happier when I just cut off the old flowers. I've been deadheading pretty far back, the result being no further action from that cane. Oops.

The frustrating thing about BN is that the cluster won't open all at once. The individual flowers open mostly one at a time, so there's no massive flush, just very scattered tiny flowers. Not what I was expecting.

Reve d'Or spoiled me. She's a fast grower for a noisette.

Crepuscule basically doesn't grow in my garden except backwards after the freezes kill half of her. Three and half years is a long time for nothing to happen, no flowers, no growth. I may try Alister Stella Gray in Crep's spot which doesn't get sun until late spring.

Princesse de Nassau has been very slow but has just had a growth spurt and now some blooming clusters. I like her blooms the best - brighter white, more globular and pendulous clusters. Very pretty if not few. This is the first bloom this year.

Duchesse d'Auerstadt is not as vigorous as Reve d'Or but much more so than the other noisettes I just mentioned. It's stiffer than RdO. Unfortunately, our warm winter was punctuated by a late freeze which really devastated her. But the squirrels brutalize her the worst. I don't think she's had a cane break survive for the last 2 years. Love her yolk-yellow, fully double flowers though they've been few this year. Maybe next year will be better. Maybe I should wrap her in chicken wire.

Jaune Desprez - I haven't a clue about this one. It's 3-1/2 years in the ground and barely 5' tall with one flower its whole life. Maybe it doesn't like the root competition from the giant oak tree a few feet away. Maybe he needs to be moved.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

hi, Jeri,

Sometime ago I read Ann Peck's observation about 'Redoute's Red Noisette' - that it was an excellent rose for small birds to hide in. I purchased it from Ashdown Roses, probably when they were selling off their stock and have had it since then. It has stayed in a large pot and grew to maybe 2 feet. Last year I finally planted it at the edge of a wooded area in some amount of good sun and this year it is about 4 feet and has finally started to bloom some. That's a good 3 years of waiting for a bloom.

As you can see, the foliage is very healthy, not a speck of blackspot or mildew. It has thin canes and a lot of leaves, with only a smattering this year of small pink blooms. They are about an inch, I'd say. I am curious about how long the bloom time will be and whether it will rebloom as it gets more mature. I think it is going to be a big rose, and I think Ann was very correct about using it as bird cover.

I wish I knew more about it. I searched the internet and found some pictures that Kent Krugh had taken which were on his Woodland Gardens site, mostly gone now, of course. I've wondered if Ann Peck knows where it came from, but haven't asked. I really am starting to like it. It certainly won't win any prizes at a rose show, though ...

Thanks for asking about it, too. :)

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Tammy in Tennessee has one of these too; I hope in a couple of years she can add her thoughts about it and how it grows for her. It sure seems to like the wet mild climate up here and seems to deal with the much-less-than-full-sun spot it has. But maybe it will bloom faster for her as she has a lot more of those rays than I do!

I have RR also. Mine is a little darker pink than in Gean's picture. It's been in the ground for about two years and is about five feet tall. It bloomed heavily until a fig tree got so big it blocks some of the sun it used to have. I may have to move it. It gets plenty of sun through fall and winter when the fig denudes, so I've been putting off moving it.

Well, I find Redoute's Red very intriguing. (Something to follow up on . . . )

Re. some of Sherry's thoughts:

BLUSH NOISETTE: " . . . the cluster won't open all at once. The individual flowers open mostly one at a time, so there's no massive flush . . . "

*** You're right. The clusters don't open all at once.
If I were still exhibiting, I would go into the sprays, and remove (disbud) all of the terminal and secondary buds, and I think the rest would all open at once. This is far too much work, but it could be done.
I, too, found that BN hated to be deadheaded hard, so I quit doing so. As I have time, I just chop off the flowers, and let the plant find where it wants to go, then, go back and remove the part of the cane it has bypassed. With this treatment, the plant has improved by leaps and bounds.
(This also works for Prospero, and particularly for 'International Herald Tribune.' A rose that prefers a bit of neglect is fine with me.
This also applies to the various Blush Noisette sports.
One reason I wanted Roseville where I just put it is that, in this locaton, I can snip away at it MINIMALLY, as needed for perfect grooming.

CREPUSCULE "basically doesn't grow in my garden except backwards after the freezes kill half of her."

*** NOW, You are talking about Tea-Noisettes. Quite another cuppa tea. (Reve d'Or is WONDERFUL here!)

*** Is your CREPUSCULE budded? Or own-root.
There's a monster in the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden -- but it is budded. I tried 3 times with own-roots. Now, I have a budded plant from Burlington. It is SMALL, but it does grow and bloom.

DUCHESSE d'AUERSTADT " . . . is not as vigorous as Reve d'Or but much more so than the other noisettes . . . "

*** Yes, but the DdA I have here is miserably unhappy. I think its condition is made worse by the fact that it is badly virused. It's going to leave very soon. It's had 4-5 years, and it ain't gettin' better. I'm patient, but I do have limits ...

JAUNE DESPREZ - "I haven't a clue about this one. It's 3-1/2 years in the ground and barely 5' tall with one flower its"

*** We tried 3 times to grow JD. Gave it up for hopeless.
Then, we ACCIDENTALLY bought a vigorous 5-G plant from ARE. It is actually growing well, and beginning to bloom decently, despite the close attentions of a pepper tree and a ficus. I think there's hope for it! The fragrance is to die for!

Jeri

Sherry, my Crepuscules are over 6 feet and probably that wide. They have been in the ground about 7 years. In the spring and fall they are to die for, but in the heat of summer they are ratty looking. So are some of my other Noisettes. I always thought they were heat lovers, but apparently not central Florida heat. Oh, and they are own-root. I wish I could find them on Fortuniana w/o paying through the nose.

Regarding Crepuscule in Florida; I had mine in a very large pot in very good soil and own root. After about 3 years it took off and I realized I was in big trouble. So, I took cuttings and gave it away to another Fl rose bud.

I heard it has done well. My surviving cutting, after another three years has begun to show hints of leaping. It is in an ideal place, own root and very good soil.

Florida,
if you have a picture of it in full bloom I wish you'd post in here and on helpmefind. It's probably quite a sight... Does it stay clean for you??

Harborrose, I don't have any pictures of it in heavy bloom, sorry to say. I'm torn between moving it or cutting back the fig tree so it gets the same amount of sun it used to. The annoying thing is that d@% fig tree stayed a large bush for about 15 years, then when I put in a mister system in that bed for the ROSES, it just took off.

Jeri, it always confuses me when HMF says "Noisette, Tea-Noisette". WHICH is it?? Now I know.

Crep (and all the others) is own-root, and believe it or not, yesterday it looked like it was definitely bigger on top no doubt from the rain we've had lately and maybe the blood meal. It is on an arbor about 7' from the north side of the house, so it doesn't get sun until May. That could be the problem, but I have nowhere else to put it.

Floridarosez, I just saw a whole bush shot of Crepuscule growing as a mound. How beautiful. I thought it was a climber. I'd love to grow it freestanding like that (who wouldn't?) but I don't have the room. It was a gorgeous thing as I am sure yours is. Mine used to be bigger than it is width-wise and seems reluctant to be tall. That last freeze we had really was cruel to the noisettes.

Jeri, thanks so much for the enlightenment re Blush Noisette. I guess I was really "abusing" it according to its standards.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

It is a difficult thing to make yourself believe that -- SOMETIMES -- the best thing we can do for a rose is ... NOTHING.

Well, maybe not NOTHING, but LESS, anyhow.

My grandmother deadheaded all of her roses by "bend and snap," popping off faded blooms at the abcission point. They thrived. When January rolled around, she pruned out old and dead growth. He roses thrived on that treament.

Sometimes, for some roses, that's STILL the most successful approach.

Jeri

Oh, and Mudbird -- In our experience, Reve d'Or is THE yellow-y Tea Noisette for those of us along the cool SoCal coast. Of course it is spectacular inland, but it also condescends to grow and bloom well for us, in our fogbank, and keep clean foliage.

It's a winner. (I particularly love the one in the old Sacramento City Cemetery Historic Rose Garden.)

Jeri

Jeri - My Reve d'Or (ownroot) has been in the ground just since last September and its been nonstop blooming since March - big blooms too, like it was all grown up! At just 5 ft tall, it laughs at the chilly ocean winds, and the foliage is spotless. It's outperformed every other yellow Tea-Noisette I've tried to grow. Prior to Reve d'Or this year, the best yellow roses in my garden had been English roses (Molineux,Teasing Georgia, English Garden, Symphony).
Alister Stella Grey - my baby ownroot's is vigorous and floriferous, but the yellow flowers fade quickly to a dull hue - I don't know if the color will hold better as the plant matures.
Crepuscule - likes more heat than my garden provides. It remained a short scraggly semi-climber for 7 years, and I finally SP'd it (Sorry, Ashdown!)
Duchesse de Auerstadt - magnificent 10 ft budded climber from Limberlost Roses that produced dozens of huge flowers, all of which rotted in the spring murk. Heartbreaking, finally got rid of it after 4 yrs.
Because Mar Vista (west LA) has a long chilly spring, I used to lose a lot of baby ownroots by planting them directly into the garden. I think they were done in by the chilly damp ground and cloudy mornings. The past couple years I've been babying new ownroots by planting several together in one large pot that sits on a warm concrete step in front of a sunny wall. After a 6-8 wks in this sheltered spot, I move them into individual 1 or 2 gallon pots for a while longer, then into the garden or a 5-gallon pot if they need more time. Now most of my ownroots survive. -- Candace

Candace, your experience and ours -- exactly the same. For us, it's all about micro-climate, after all.

5-10 miles inland, I'm sure it's very different, but we are where we are, and that's where we garden.

Our other random factor is three lively Dalmatian dogs, who occasionally barrel into pots of all sizes in an excess of joy, or steal rose tags in moments of boredom.

Now, while it's still cold and clammy, I need to go down the hill a little, and pull weeds.

Jeri

I have Celine Forestier and Reve d'Or and neither seems very happy to be in my garden. I wonder now whether they like less heat but then it's apparently also spectacular more inland. Both plants grow against the house wall but they do have late afternoon shade. After three and four years respectively I wonder if I'd be better off with different roses, although I'm not sure what those would be. Noisettes also didn't like it here. That's a big regret for me but I suppose one I'll have to accept. In another garden not too far from here Jaune Desprez and Crepuscule grew like weeds for me, as did Secret Garden Musk Rose. It's not just location, its microlocation!

Ingrid

Noisette roses rock!
I was thrilled that out of the seven plants of 'Cato's Clusters' I grew from cuttings in 2004, one sported a cane that produces only white blossoms, and now 2/3rds of the plant now (in 2012)sports pure white blooms from the moment that the sepals part. Other canes have c. 50% pink blooms and the rest pure white. Nearly all Noisettes where I live are highly disease resistant in 3 local no-spray gardens. (Mac being a notable exception because she's often covered with p.m.)
I also grow
-Celine Forestier
-Marechal Niel
-Mme. Alfred Carriere
-Lamarque (along with Crepescule the most resistant to p.m., here)
-Le Pactole
-Reve d'Or' I love that rounded bloom form, it is such a romantic bloom style.
-'Nastarana' I have two of these pretty white Noisette roses flanking the entrance to my most fragrant rose garden, their scent, like R. moschata, wafts on the air filling it with Musk rose scent for a distance of several yards.

Of all the Noisettes I've seen and smelled at the Vintage gardens collection and San Jose Heritage Rose garden the most strongly fragrant to me, and the one I desire most,is
'Secret Garden Noisette' which has red-pink staining on the outer edges of the petals. I ruffled a few blooms on the plant, and my hand was perfumed for several hours afterwards.
'Secret Garden Noisette' was found in the same garden as Secret Garden Climbing Musk'
I think Rogue valley sells it. It is one of the roses I loose sleep over, lusting after.

Luxrosa

Lux -- What's the growth habit of "Secret Garden Noisette"?

Is it a bush? Or a Climber?

BTW, Mme. Alfred Carriere is also the only one of the Tea Noisettes that has been mildewy here -- which is why it's no longer here.

Jeri

This will surprise Jeri, but MAC grows really well in my "microclimate" of the Mar Vista hills. I've got 4 MACs, all 20+ ft high. They do get a touch of mildew at times, but mostly stay clean, bloom throughout the year, and lots of little birds live in them. We have to chop them back hard every few years, but they come back easily and look better for it. But, I tried growing MAC on the front of my house which faces towards the ocean, and it mildewed horribly and was removed. So I guess it's really a question of "microlocation", as Ingrid says.
Luxrosa - do your Nastaranas grow like shrubs or arching small climbers? I'm looking for a slender small climber or arching shrub that could grow supported by a pillar.
- Candace

luxrosa and Jeri, I grew Secret Garden Noisette in a prior garden as a very large, rounded bush which was almost constantly in bloom. Mine did not have the pinkish-red tinge on the flowers but was uniformly cream, but I well remember the scent of the flowers and leaves. I kept mine pruned but it wanted to throw up long canes and I think it could easily be trained as a climber. For me it was very healthy inland and had no problems except for wanting to outgrow its (large) space.

Ingrid

Candace, our MAC was on our South-facing hillside, with all-day sun -- but also in direct line with the sea breeze. It was NEVER a happy plant here -- but I don't discount the possibility that a different plant in a different location might be fine.

OTOH, we have THREE SGMC, TWO remaining Sombreuil, TWO "Setzer Noisette," Silver Moon, Fortuniana, R. banksia banksia, Purezza, Guadalupe Volunteer, and "Ladyfingers."

If I were to bring home yet another white climber, I would be courting divorce. :-)

Jeri

The Charlestonian seems to be the least bothered by our extreme heat. He blooms year-round and has HUGE clusters. While up close, as Sherry noted, even though they don't open all at once, just standing and admiring in the garden setting, you really don't notice that. If you're smelling them or picking for a bouquet then you notice the spent blooms in the clusters. It has a lovely scent.

Harborrose, I didn't answer your question about RR's health. It is spotless here unless we have a lot of overcast days in a row.

Thanks, Florida; good to know. Now, if only Cato's Cluster would bloom!

Redoute's Red was first offered by Roses Unlimited (before there was a Paul and an Ashdown).

I loved mine dearly, and when I lost it to RRD, the RRD was really fast moving through the plant. The density of the bush probably made it more susceptible to eriophyid mite retention.

Once upon a time Doug Seidel told me that from seeds it takes two years for cluster flowered noisettes to bloom. That mirrors what I saw in one of my volunteer noisette seedlings. Back in the 1800s there were references to certain roses needing three year old canes on which to bloom. I wonder if Gean's wait for RR to bloom was because her plant was taken from
'green wood' cuttings and those have to put on woody growth before they can do their thing bloom wise.

What I see in Tennessee is the cluster flowered noisettes are dependable for blooms regardless of the season. They make really beautiful bridal bouquets and decorations.

You know, tho, Ann -- That's not true of "Roseville Noisette."

It blooms pretty early -- and in volume, too. But that may have something to do with the fact that it is a dwarf, and never makes a lot of big growth.

I've got some little plants out there now -- 4-5 little guys, in 1-Gallons -- that I think are probably "Cemetery Musk," from the Sacramento City Cemetery. They're setting buds, which is good, because I need to see them bloom, to be sure what they are (Katie took the tags.)

Jeri