how long have those tea roses been planted there, ingrid?

It might be that studying the bloom habits of native plants will give you a better plan on dealing with your own garden.

Most of the natives are once bloomers so they can spend their summers storing energy for the next spring. You may find that pinching buds, long deep soaks and limiting fertilizers for summer/hot season growth with allow you a wonderful fall and spring garden full of roses.

I think you're wise to look at the project realistically -- but remember that it can take these roses, starting from small own-roots, several YEARS to become mature, established plants.

My Mme. Lombard is a good example of this.

A cultivar that has been found over and over and over, she has demonstrated her ability to survive with very little. My plant was grown from a cutting in a small historic cemetery, and it's one of our most-faithful bloomers. BUT this plant has probably been in the ground for 6 years, and it's not really mature even now.

If you reduce your NUMBERS, you may be able to nurse these babies along until they leave Kindergarten behind, and at least graduate from Junior High.

But along the way, do learn to close your eyes if they get the uglies during your hot summers, and look for them to be at their best in winter.

Jeri

Ingrid

You and Diane share the Growing Roses in Spite of It All Award! I am absolutely cheering you on and know that as time passes, your garden will develop into a project of camaraderie between your own hands and Mother Nature's.

Have you considered stepping into the rose breeding pool? I have a vision of cultivars that are but twinkles in the eyes of growers. Somewhere on the horizon, indulgent provencal pink blooms froth atop tough plants thriving in gardens and on rocky slopes alike. These frothy pink blooms look stunning when resting in antique blue and white porcelain, of course.

Carol

Ingrid, we have been in drought for several years now, and quite frankly, even when we do get rain, I simply do not look at my roses in July and August. We get most of our rain June, July, and August usually, but the heat just overwhelmes them in July and August. They are downright ugly then, but then nothing else is particularly beautiful, either. I consider our really hot months the equivalent of everyone else's winter. Time to stay inside in the air conditioning and try not to look too closely when I'm outside.

I hope you get lots or rain this coming year, and perhaps you can change your outlook.

My profound sympathies, Ingrid. If it weren't for constant irrigation, I'd be growing sagebrush and cheat grass. Once you mentioned hand watering your roses (which sounds punishing to me since I've done it myself), and I'm wondering if you could install a drip system. It would be expensive and run on house water, but a life saver. You don't have grass, right? That would help tremendously. I'm sure you have already thought of this, but maybe, if things are this desperate, it would be time to consider irrigation again. It could be a partial solution, at least. May the rain gods have mercy on us. Diane

hoov, the tea roses are between three to six years old. I don't think it's a matter of age since they bloomed, although not as profusely as in spring, all through the previous summers. In fact, Le Vesuve doesn't like the cold weather here and always bloomed really well during the heat, with this year being the exception.

Another thing I've noticed, and I don't think it's my imagination, is that the intensity of the sun has increased. When it's in the low eighties I can literally feel my arms burning when I stand in the sun, even with sunscreen on. I wonder if during that time the ozone layer has become thinner or whether I'm making it up.

Kippy, you have a point there. When it's really hot I only go into the garden before the sun is up and after it's set, although I do enjoy the sight of roses blooming through the windows and French doors. I'm not fertilizing and I've begun to do the deep soaking since I've noticed that under the mulch the soil is often bone dry with hand-watering. I will have to make some adjustments, but I also believe choosing the right roses will be as important. I have a young White Pet and, even though it's frying in a sunny spot, its leaves are dark green and perky, and I'm having to disbud it again! Souvenir de Carnot has some beautiful buds and blooms on it, and this is only its second year. I don't know whether it will put out any new growth in the heat, but if it does I will disbud it until the weather cools down.

Drip irrigation isn't something I favor, with the ground squirrels chewing through it and the emitters getting clogged and my not noticing until the rose is half-dead.

floridarose, I like your comment about our summers being like everyone else's winters. There's so much truth in that.

Carol, I love your description of the "new" rose, stunningly beautiful, tough as nails, and in love with the heat. Actually, I thought with the teas and chinas we already had that, but my place just may be outside the bounds of what a rose is capable of. As Jeri so often says, location, location. Mine is just uniquely $%^&*#. In spite of that, I'm determined to make peace with whatever I'm given and make of it the best I can. More drought-tolerant plants are on the horizon that will grow along with the roses or in places where the roses aren't happy, and in the "good" spots I'm still going to have great roses. Their numbers may be reduced but I'm going to make sure that their impact will not.

Ingrid

Ingrid, as Carol pointed out, you and I are troopers and I know you will find a way to grow roses, even if it's only a few varieties that can withstand your conditions. We both need to have roses in our lives and I believe the roses know that on some level.

For me, if all else fails I can grow Francis E. Lester and Lyda Rose all around my house. You will find your magic plants too.

For all of us, I hope next fall brings lots of rain for those that need it.

Diane

I was thinking about you today Ingrid.

I know roses do not like growing in total shade, but is there a deciduous tree that you like, that could deal with the extra watering for the roses (some of the natives will drown if they get that extra water) and that could be pruned so that they provide a dappled shade for the hottest time of the day? Might work to both cool your home and shade the roses. Of course you have to remember fire clearance etc. But it is a thought.

I honestly think it is better to grow a few roses really well rather than a whole heap of miffy ones. You are well along on the selection, attrition and Darwinian winnowing out of those which cannot perform adequately so that the remaining few are a source of satisfaction (joy, even). In design terms, the idea of 'less is more' is even more resonant when gardening in extreme conditions. There has always been a European tradition of formality, repetition and an almost classical rigour where restricting choices acts as a purifying and intensely focused exercise. And Ingrid, your landscape, if I may say, adds a particularly epic and rather fierce quality which requires a certain discipline and confidence to follow through in your garden. It has always been another well-known design trope to remain true to the vernacular inasmuch as gardening is a language - a dialogue between place, architecture, climate, culture. By discovering and using mainly those plants which, above all other considerations, will thrive and increase (instead of barely surviving through emergency interventions and massive re-ordering of the environment), all the disparate elements which make up a garden (line, colour, style, utility, emotional and intellectual nourishment) play happily together when there is a solid core of reliable healthy plants.

Waffling, but coherent, I hope......

One more thought

Just because you do not want under mulch drip systems, you could use a section of the tubing with spaced drippers and a hose end connection (and pressure reducer etc) and just run a hose to it while your in the garden and roll it up when your done and the squirrels are out.

Ingrid I feel your pain. Here in Las Vegas we are even hotter and drier and I don't want to think about the "heat loving" roses that have died on us.

We cope by trying to keep them out of afternoon sun spots, under the filtered shade of a desert tree and finding a few tough ones. I remember you saying that you didn't have luck with noisettes but must admit they have been good for us.

Belle Vichyssoise, the Charlestonian, Blush Noisette, Roseville noisette, and Crepuscule have been really good for us in the heat but of course the best course might be to put some actual desert lovers in your yard for July and August.

No matter how hot it gets here Yellow flowered Cassia Wislezenii, white Cordia parvifolia, purple Chilopsis linearis and apricot Tecoma bells of fire can be depended on in furnace conditions. I will always grow roses but if I want a good show in the worst heat I know I need to look elsewhere.

We don't have squirrels but can't imagine not having 90 percent of the yard on drip. The flags are very troublesome but the end of line self cleaning drippers rarely fail and we have converted most of our watering to those.

Good luck,
Maria

A good gardener is nothing if not persistent. You are persistent and you will find a way. If you have less roses and they can receive more water that makes sense. One of my very favorite rose gardens is a small rose garden. It's beautiful with every rose to be savored like a jewel. It seems that there are many tough and attractive companion plants that grow in your climate that could take up of some space. I am confident that you will find a way.

Ingrid, we are all here to support you and cheer you on as you embark on a new garden plan. But I do agree about roses for the the blue and white porcelain.
*wink*
Susan

Ingrid

Although roses are...well..roses, swapping some decorative yet drought-tolerant shrubs and perennials for your not-so-heat-tolerant roses might salve your separation anxiety and enhance the beauty of the roses that are keepers. In the thread "Are Roses your Favorite Flower," I replied that roses reside nearest my gardening heart but then proceeded to list all the other flowering shrubs and perennials that serve to court my queens. My supporting cast of of fragrant and colorful companion plants plays a role similar to that of the white butterfly bush leaves in your 'President Carnot' arrangement. The silken rosy sheen of 'Carnot' is a thousand times richer because it is framed by the silver grey foliage of Buddleia davidii. A rose alone is like a queen without a country.

Because my lot is about 75% smaller, I currently have half as many roses as I did at my last residence. Through the process of necessary reduction, I have discovered which roses are like air and water to me, which are those that truly sustain my soul when regularly encountered in the intimacy of my own garden. I have also learned which ones are lovely to visit but equally enjoyable from a greater sensual distance. It's wonderful that they're in the world, but I don't need to be with them every waking hour.

I feel confident you will develop strong feelings for those roses which are your own true loves, the ones that display a developed sense of reciprocity and offer as much as you give. These will be the loyal ones, the ones that are steadfast and determined to stand shoulder to shoulder through the thick and thin of passing seasons. If you are like me, you will love a few roses of weaker constitution. You will embrace them flaws and all and tuck them into pots so that you may carefully dote and savor.

I predict that rose relationships which are delicious but benign flirtations will cool, and if you are surprised by chance encounters, you will remember these roses as you do high school sweethearts. The pleasant memories will remain but the heartache of separation will be a distant memory.

New relationships: if you are seeking more Buddleias, please let me know. In all my previous experiments, butterfly bushes have rooted like rabbits. I can offer B. davidii 'Black Knight,' B. davidii 'Harlequin,' and B. 'Lochinch.'

Sharing your challenges: Annie's Annuals has so many plants I'd like to grow, but the poor buggers just croak in my cold, wet clay. They scoff at my amendment attempts. Some examples of hot dry climate perennials/annuals I'd like to grow but can't: Gaura 'Whirling Butterflies,' Eschscholzia californica (any please!), Agastache, Calochortus, Geum, any lavender but L. angustifolia and the odd L. stoechas (can't grow 'Night Wings' or 'Madrid Blue' to save my life), Oenothera (please forgive me all who are trying to eradicate this one), Penstemon, most sages, and Nemophila maculata 'Baby Five Spot.' I'd (almost) kill for the last one!

Maybe you and I will have an opportunity to experience vicarious fulfillment as we post photos of our gardens from oh-so-opposite climates. If you successfully grow any of the above as rose companions, please do not hesitate to share. You'll hear my mixed sigh of envy and joy traveling down the I-5 corridor!

With gardener's sympathy,
Carol

This post was edited by PortlandMysteryRose on Tue, Jun 18, 13 at 6:51

We were lucky this year and finally had lots of rain and a long, cool, rainy spring. Now it's gotten horrid and hot out, but at least it's held off until mid-June to do this, instead of starting in April or May, as it has in the past 10 years or so (at least it seems to me).To me, the "dead" time of year is decidedly SUMMER. It's so hot and miserable outside,I don't blame my roses for not wanting to bloom!And the blooms that do come are of poor quality and extremely ephemeral.Their season is in the range of April -to-June,and that's basically it. It's the same thing as with daffodils, for example, or crocus or really almost ALL flowers; they have their month or two of bloom, and that's just their life pattern. I think if my garden was near my house, and so I'd enjoy looking out the window at it during summer,I'd work on finding plants that actually enjoy the summer heat and are at their peak in July-August. I'm thinking of Maurizio Usai's garden in Sardegna, La Pietra Rossa.I hope some day to actually see it, but I remember reading that he coordinates his garden: takes the attitude that rose season is limited to those couple of months, after which ornamental grasses, for example, take over the job of supplying beauty (right now I can't think of any other kind of plant that actually wants to look good in July-August...crepe myrtle trees,maybe...there must be others...). Even taking an almost absurdly optimistic view of the future of the world's climate,the fact is that Planet Earth just does not have enough water to permit people to irrigate large gardens! I think Ingrid is very wise to re-evaluate her concept of her garden,though I certainly hope she'll continue with roses! (in reality, they really don't require all that much water, as plants go...) It's all to the good when those of us who really are interested in gardening and truly love it apply our minds to revolutionizing antiquated,unsustainable ideas of what a garden "should" be. bart

Excellent, and thoughtful, post Bart. I think you're right on target.

Jeri

I'm astonished and delighted at the wonderfully eloquent, supportive and thoughtful responses. Camp, your reply is a masterpiece and, without having ever been here, you instinctively seem to understand the conditions, beauty and nature of my terrain. But, indeed, everyone has contributed something of significance for me to ponder, with everyone's unique voice and viewpoint. It was interesting to me to see in Tessie's link that rose growers in England have noted the same climatic changes I've described, which shows it to not just be a figment of my imagination, but a reality that we must all learn to deal with.

There's no room for me to have more trees but I already have four crape myrtles and two butterfly bushes which need little water, and am about to add another dwarf crape myrtle. Vitex and grewia occidentalis are two medium and large shrubs that I intend to use in places that are too hot for the roses, and I've already planted three. They add interest and beauty that complements the roses, and I'm sure I'll discover more.

Later in summer when the heat is already doing its worst I plan to describe the roses that have done the best for me, albeit with generous water and mulch. The roses already rest three months in the winter at my higher elevation so I would prefer roses that can perform even in the heat of summer, although I don't expect that there will be many. Some will suffice.

mohavemaria, thank you so much for your list of plants that will bloom in the summer. I will definitely investigate them. If there is color it's not necessarily the roses that have to furnish it.

Carol, thank you so much for your kind offer of buddleias, but, alas, I have no place to put them. I have exactly one spot, where one rose after another has failed to thrive, where I plan to put tje white dwarf crape myrtle, and that's it for trees. Believe it or not, California poppies and Mexican evening primrose have failed for me, as have some of the penstemons (although one variety is blooming right now in pink and purple), and mimulus, which should be right at home here. Even lantana has dried up in its admittedly hot position. I will keep searching for and trying drought-tolerant plants for those that like it here. I'm sure they exist.

Carol, your description of roses and the relationship we have with different ones was so spot-on. Another great piece of writing. I had no idea how wonderful your responses would be in so many different ways, all of them worthy of thought and oh so enjoyable to read. Thank you, all of you, for caring enough to give me the treasures contained in this thread.

Ingrid

Although most certainly don't appreciate extreme heat, a few of my roses don't look good until it does get hot. The blooms of Bengale Centefeuilles don't really develop properly until the hot part of the summer. Alba Odorata is another that looks better when it's hot than it does in the spring.

As others here have suggested, it's good to have a contingent of warmth-lovers to divert attention to when the weather is hot. Moonflowers (Ipomaea alba), taro, Nelumbo nucifera or lutea (lotus), tomatoes, and figs, to name a few, do best when it is warm. Agastaches hold up well (these are my primary rose companion in the central bed featuring yellows and apricot roses), as do Oenothera (NOT O. speciosa) and Mirabilis spp. (many seeds of interesting and beautiful Mirabilis species, such as M. longiflora and M. viscosa, have become available in commerce recently).

Carol, I can't see most Calochortus as in-ground rose companions. All the lower-elevation species (e.g., Calochortus luteus, C. venustus) need to be kept dry during their summer dormant period otherwise they rot. They do well in pots: I have kept a bunch of Calochortus luteus originally grown from seed in pots for about 20 years now. I let them dry up after they bloom in the spring, store the pots in the garage over the summer to make sure they don't inadvertently get watered, then haul them back out when the fall rains begin (refreshing the potting soil at that time if needed). They make a beautiful show every year when treated this way and I don't have to trek out to the unwatered far reaches of the garden to enjoy them.

Ingrid
You are an intrepid gardener and an inspiration! Your dwarf crape myrtle will be a lovely addition to the hillside garden. We can exchange shoulders over Oenothera and Eschscholzia. Sigh. Wouldn't we be thrilled to successfully grow what some others struggle to eliminate? I'll follow your challenges and adventures and send continuing thoughts of moral support.

Catspa
Yes, the Calochortus was a real experiment for me. Your description of culture explains my plant's decline. I surely drowned it! I think I'll stick to daylilies until I have more time to provide consistent attention to my plants. Maybe you could sneak some photos of your Calochortus blooms in between your rose posts. The Antique Roses (and anything else in the garden) Forum. :-)

Carol

I like the way you think. Great to have such a positive attitude!