Sounds like Mr. Nelson, like a lot of people, didn't get the tea fragrance.

Ann, I always enjoy reading your historical tidbits.

So based on this historical documentation, does Ann think we have the right plant in commerce, or there is another. No interrogatory mark on computer, had too much coffee to drink.

Stated it has no fragrance and the SDLM plants I have are quite fragrant. If I ever saw a bloom 5-6 inches on my own-root plants, I would faint deadaway; however, I do get bloom that size on my plants grafted onto fortuniana. So do I have the wrong plant or is that a difference in growing it in perhaps better soil in that century than we have now. Just wondering what Ann thinks.

P.S. Michael, my SDLM plants do not have tea fragrance. Not sure, but I would compare it more to a mild MIP fragrance. There is nothing quite like the fragrance of MIP when she is good and there is nothing quite so cantankerous.

I think there is a stronger clone out there. And that it's worth finding.
The scent thing I can ignore. I had a pretty good sniffer until I lived in Houston for a decade and then New Orleans for a decade and learned why EarNoseThroat doctors are a necessity. Now I can only smell tea roses if I've taken many Benadryl or am on a steady Zicam regimen. And Mr. Nelson was probably at least my age to have done the rose-ing he mentioned as well as to become as opinionated (I identify with him, chuckle) about roses. There were no medical remedies to sinus problems back then.
But a strongly caned rose with big blooms...could be out there. I may start giving Mystic Beauty a heavy winter dose of the finest horse manure just to see how she evolves.
The strongly caned part does match the way Souv. de St. Anne's' grew before we moved it, but it doesn't match my SdlMs.

To me it has a tea base with old rose and other stuff. It seems something like Mme Butterfly, but I killed her & can't make a live comparison. Maybe I'm completely wrong about this.

Yesterday somebody was comparing a rose that I think of as having a tea-type fragrance to the smell of an old vacuum-cleaner bag :) Noses for roses.

Oh, Michael, we did not kill Madame Butterfly, she melts away with temperatures that drop below 40 in December. :) I lost her and her mother. They were equally beautiful and yes, I think you made a good comparison in fragrances. Old rose fragrance, but more subtle --- MIP smells strongly that way, to my nose, but then I wake up every morning with a new box of Kleenex. If you ever happen to be at Ashdown or RU when I am there, just look for the person with the Kleenex falling all out of her purse.

Ann, my SdlM is powerfully fragrant, and it's not the tea fragrance at all. Tea roses that are said to have the "tea fragrance" are the ones that I can not smell at all. SdlM has a distinct powder fragrance. Mine has EXTREMELY strong and stout canes, more than any other rose I've ever seen. The bloom size on mine is 4" to 5" during the fall, but 3" during the summer.

Randy

Well, my original thought was that Souv. usually has a pretty strong, complex fragrance, and if it wasn't very fragrant to Mr. Nelson, he was only getting part of the complex.

I guess Ann's original thought was that some of the old roses may exist somewhere as clones that have never been grafted, or at least not successively, so have picked up less viral baggage. Maybe in Macon there's a cutting from a cutting from a cutting from Mr. Nelson's plant.

I'm almost positive my SDLM climber is an own-root. It is vigorous to a fault and can easily climb from the ground up and and over and back down my 6' arch in one season, but it mildews like no other and rarely blooms. Thus, an "all green" arch. The blooms I have seen are probably 3-4" and have a wonderful fragrance, but it's been two years since I've seen one, so I'm no help there.

I just got a grafted bush version from Pickering this spring, but it's just getting started... it doesn't appear, um, vigorous, though.

What wonderful history! Wouldn't it be fun to snoop around the south looking for a strong bloom machine SDLM?

and only 2 ft tall?

I joined in 2002 but believe it or not lurked for at least a couple of years before getting up the courage to start posting. After that it was Katie Bar the Door. LOL! I profoundly miss some of the old timers. Rosebud in particular. His enabling was awesome. I once remember a furious enabling battle between us that grew to epic proportions on the Rose Forum. Well over 80 posts with many participants. Steve totally trounced me.

Another is Jean. She still posts but not like she used to. Then there is Cindy. We had our disagreements (she doesn't approve of my enabling) but I really miss her images. She has a pond on her property graced by rare black swans. Lord they were beautiful. Then there was MissyGardenWhimsy and her rose grotto. Looked like something out of childs fairytale book.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of other folks but all were dear to me. Almost like family. Our X-mas and Spring card exchanges were amazing. Rob couldn't believe that I knew so many rosarians spread across North America.

As for Spike ... well I liked him. He was tough, oh man was he ever, but he never threatened to Disney me when I didn't deserve it. He was also good at keeping the trolls out and the fighting down to a minimum. Lastly, he let us contribute to the website which would buy you freedom from the relentless ads that we are now subjected to.

I tried other rose forums but for sheer functionality Gardenweb remains the best.

You folks take care,

Patrick

Oops, now how that happen? It got posted to the wrong thread. My apologies.

From an April 18, 1857 article entitled "The Flower Garden" from the Ohio Farmer:
"Souvenir de la MalmaisonÂstrong, healthy grower; very large flower, with coarse petals, showy; much esteemed.

Back then, many many roses had delicate petals. I wonder if our modern roses with petals said to have good substance would have been classified as coarse, a century and a half ago.

And "strong grower" as opposed to what roses in 1857?

From the American Farmer, 1875, an address to the Maryland Horticultural Society by Mr. Pentland.

"Of the Bourbon class, I consider the following named varieties among the very best, being both good growers and constant bloomers. I shall name them in the order of merit, and, at the very head of the list, I must place that grand old rose Souveir de la Malmaison, clear flesh, and the largest flower, this rose has not been excelled as yet."

Ok, so we've got a time line started. When did SdlM loose its reputation for making large flowers?

For me, among OGR roses anyway, SdlM has not lost that rep of a large bloom size. 4 to 5 inches during the peak fall season is a large bloom to me.

Randy

I must have a good clone. Mine is own-root from Chamblee's (won't go into how I acquired it). It's in it's third year and doing great with large clusters of large blooms. BTW I can't detect any fragrance either while her sport Souvenir de St. Anne's is extremely fragrant. It is definitely a hot weather rose.

You might try Rosehill Cemetery, but after opening the pictures for awhile I only saw two roses. Turns out it was named for Simri Rose, who started it. Quite gothic place really.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosehill Cemetery

I also got mine from Chamblee about 5 months ago. It is definitely quite fragrant to me, maybe not extremely so. To me it smells a little bit like Mme Isaac Pereire but more discernible. The flower color is so pretty. It is still a young plant and the flower stems are on the weak side.

I am interested in its various sports. The Souvenir de St Anne's is said to be more fragrant, but I am balking on its 6-foot mature size.

st_rose, I don't know about the ultimate size of SdSA but the size and shape is identical to Souvenir de la Malmaison.

Guess I haven't checked in enough and almost missed this thread. I apologize for resurrecting it from so far back.

Ann, come on to Macon and have a look. Pat and I always have plans to check out surrounding counties but just haven't gotten around to it. I don't remember if Charles had a SDLM planted at his parents' home. Anyone that has a SDLM from Rose Peddler may have the clone from Pat's house. It was there when they moved there, don't recall the date the house was built but I would bet it was a passalong, not a purchased rose. Can't say how it compares to other clones as I have never actually grown her clone in the ground and the one I have is not a strong grower. I believe Pat's original SDLM is no longer.

Rose Hill Cemetery does have some surviving old roses. Mrs. BR Cant, several specimens of what is probably Archduke Charles, "Rose Hill Marie" (probably Marie van Houtte), "Rose Hill Big Pink" (maybe Killarney), "Dannenberg Red China" and a couple of once blooming shrubs (somewhat china like), were there last October. One little red china, "Plant Grace" is now gone, but it is growing here and I believe Ashdown still has it.

At the last Friends of the Library sale, I purchased several rose and rose related books with notations from the 1970's as to locations of various old roses around Macon. I'll go back through to see if there is any mention of a SDLM.

Thanks for digging up these interesting articles. Have run across Robert Nelson's name once before but don't recall where.

Lisa

Ann---wonderful post-----

Florence