Sevin won't harm your new rose buds. Try spraying new buds. I wait until they are just about ready to bloom. Spray just enough to cover bud w/ the solution. Leave it alone. The JB's will try to get a bite but will either leave or die once they taste. When your bud opens, spray the inside of the flower. YES, you will probably have a hole here or there from where they bit into but you won't have complete defoliation.

Hope that helps, & don't be fearful to try it.

You are right, the JB's seem to come in wave upon wave. I spray only my favorite roses leaving the least favorite to their poor demise.

Take care,

Betty

Frances, from what I was told you spray the liquid Sevin to the leaves and JB will avoid them, same thing with the blooms, but it will kill the bees as you read in the other JB thread. and you have to spray again after it rains because the stuff wears off. Its true that they die if you spray directly on them. I donÂt know if itÂs systemic but someone here can tell you. You donÂt want to spray inside the bloom, that is a very bad suggestion from bettym.
Tracy

Carbaryl (Sevin) is a stomach poison that will kill bugs eating it several days after application. Pyrethrins is an example of a contact poison that must be sprayed on the target insect. Stomach poisons are used on large mobile insects like beetles. Carbaryl is also effective as a contact poison.

To use Sevin in a responsible way, you should remove ALL the open and half-open flowers first-- think of it as an opportunity to cut lots of roses. Otherwise you are killing pollinators who carry the poison back to the hive or nest. This would be true for ANY insecticide with a residual effect, but carbaryl is particularly lethal to bees.

Carbaryl is not systemic but it persists for maybe 5-7 days. I am not aware of a repellent effect, maybe so, but when I used it long ago, my blooms were bitten-- just not as badly, but enough to spoil them as cut flowers. Generally the bug has to bite the rose in order to be killed, except for the ones you spray directly.

So if the goal is to have lots of perfect roses during a bad beetle season, there is no chemical solution. That's why the guy on the other thread said "suck it up," meaning "have the fortitude to face reality."

Just so y'all know--

I'm one of the people who has said "suck it up." And I'm a 47 y/o woman.

Michael G has given you the responsible way to use Sevin...that's how we used it in the veg/fruit garden when I was a girl. It works, and it's not very toxic to mammals and birds. (I've dusted flea-infested cats with Sevin. Never boarded at THAT place again!)

I'm not opposed to responsible Sevin use...in fact, I recommend it to customers at the GC where I work. I also make certain they know how to use it. It's just that, FOR ME, it's not any more effective (when used according to directions)than knocking them into soapy water.

But please don't use it on open or half open blooms. And DO try googling the string Sevin bees. You will find lots of good info, from reputable ag sources (including the manufacturers themselves) on proper pesticide practices.

melanie

Sevin will also burn leaves and blooms if applied when the temps are above 85. Malathion is a contact poison that kills almost immediately and while I can't advocate broadly spraying it, I keep some in solution in a mist bottle and as I walk thru the garden I do spray individual blooms that seem to be under attack. In general though I just cede the roses for abut 6 weeks in midsummer to the annual beetle attack, knowing that this too shall pass.

hello frances:

(1)Is it true that you have to directly spray the beetle in order to kill it?

No. Sevin acts mostly as a insect stomach poison and it is pretty fast acting on JBs in that mode. So you don't have to contact the insects directly. BUT - you do have to cover the plant parts quite throughly - blooms and tops and bottoms of leaves. Sevin is not a systemic.

Keep in mind that Sevin is VERY toxic to bees.

(2)what is the advantage of killing them with Sevin as opposed to something relatively harmless like Neem (or dumping in a bucket of soapy water, for that matter)?

That's your decision.

Contrary to JB damage on other plants - which can have permanent effects if the attack is severe - damage on roses is essentially cosmetic - in other words, rose bushes are very seldom damaged by JBs to the point of permanent harm.

On the other hand, we do grow our roses for their blooms, so losing them, or having them so damaged that they are unpresentable, may not be something you want to tolerate.

(3)it seems like if you kill one off, in a minute 10 more will show up. So, unless you can be out there all day spraying, there doesn't seem to be much point.

See answer to number 1. IME, one THOROUGH application of Sevin plus a spreader/sticker will be enough unless you get a heavy rain. If you include a spreader-sticker, it won't wash off except in a deluge.

If you don't want to chance even that, use a systemic like acephate (marketed under a lot of different trade names). But you have to use it in relatively high dosage, and it is also somewhat toxic to bees, though not as much as Sevin.

(4)does Sevin have a systemic effect?

No. If you want a systemic action, I'd recommend acephate.

(5)don't the fiends STILL have to actually eat your flowers in order for the systemic to work?

Not really. Either of these insecticides are quite toxic to JBs so the amount the insects have to consume for it to take effect is very tiny relative to us - though not to them, of course.

Frances, Sevin is a non-systemic insectide, but it can exhibit a residual killing effect on leaves and, perhaps on rose petals, of 2 weeks or more. Sevin works, to a degree, as a japanese beetle protectant for at least two reasons:

1) Sevin kills or deters feeding following the consumption of a very small amount of rose tissue, hopefully small enough to preserve the ornamental value of the blossom.

2) Sevin is an active repellent for japanese beetles, at least on Linden leaves. The enclosed link is to an article (scroll down to page 21) on the residual and antifeedant activity of a variety of insecticides and is worth reading, especially because two organic-certified pesticides, Neem and Pyola also exhibit reasonable antifeedant activity, on Linden leaves.

I personally believe that the only effective chemical approach to the JB problem is to forget about killing the darn things and focus on repelling them. To date, I am quite sure that no repellent has been found that is entirely successful on rose blossoms.

Here is a link that might be useful: U. of Kentucky Nursery and Landscape article

Mike--
Bookmarked! LOTS of good info there. For those ONLY interested in the JB info...it's on pages 21-23 of the PDF.

melanie

"So if the goal is to have lots of perfect roses during a bad beetle season, there is no chemical solution."
I agree with Michaelg on this and with Mike Rivers about deterring them.

Some buds will take long to develop and they can get chewed by JBs. There is a very good way to protect certain blooms that you want to cut, and that is to cover them with panty hose. This method was suggested by Ursulita few years ago on this forum. You make a notch at one end then cut out about 4" lengthwise; youÂll get more than a handful of these nets per panty hose. You may need to tie the bottom with a flexible plant tie or small rubber band if the stem is more horizontal. As you see from my pic, I didnÂt have to tie it in this case. See that JB is trying and trying, but itÂs ultimately denied! Absolutely no holes on the bloom and perfect flower to cut for the house. Pantyhose comes in many colors (in case you didnÂt know :P ) IMO, itÂs better to get the white pantyhose to reflect the sunlight to keep the buds cool. Ursulita said they are cheap at the dollar store and itÂs true. I highly recommend this method as an alternative :)

{{gwi:285374}}

Bad, bad idea palisade.
A rose bush usually has more leaves than blooms. Why would you be so WANTON is your use of pesticides? To spray the leaves? Then you are committing a double sin 1. Gross negligence & misuse of Sevin by over spraying (the most deadly chemical known in the Universe) & 2. Defoliated blooms.

Your theory is bunk palisade, JB's have no interest, 99% of the time on leaves, They want the yummy, sweet, beautiful blooms that we've paid so much money for.

Betty

bettm, I can tell you havenÂt grown rose long enough. You should have seen OlgaÂs picture of the skeletonized leaves. For your information, I donÂt use Sevin. Just pass the info along as I was told, canÂt you even read!
Tracy

Frances,

I forgot to mention that I use Turbo brand Spreader Sticker, made by Bonide, in conjunction w/ the Sevin. You add it in to your sprayer w/ the Sevin. It helps the Sevin adhere a little better & won't wash off as quickly as without.

Betty

Tracy, I said 99% at least in my garden, not 100% of the time.

I've noticed that my UNTREATED roses, do indeed sustain heavy damage, not just of the bloom, but of most of the entire bush.
They will go after the leaves as well on SOME bushes.
It seems once they know the entire bush is safe, they'll go after that bush. They are pretty smart little buggers indeed!

Cheers!

Betty

Excellent suggestion by Roseleaf. One of the things we should do in JB season is use lots of our roses as cutflowers, but they can get bitten before they are at the openable stage.

Dang, I had forgotten about that great study that Mike linked. That's what I get for taking a long vacation from GardenWeb.

The big shortcoming of repellence as an approach is that roses open petals daily and thereby expose untreated petals to the little beasts. But repellents could get roses to the openable stage for cutting, and they could protect the foliage. In a really severe beetle season, JBs will ravage new foliage of roses.

So according to the Kentucky study, the organic product Pyola (from Gardens Alive) provides three days of pretty effective repellence while making the beetles sick, and synthetic pyrethroids provide 19 days of protection, while killing beetles. I think it could be OK to spray Pyola on flowers if it is done after sunset when bees will be absent.

One puzzling thing is that Pyola (canola plus pyrethrins) worked, while another product containing rotenone plus pyrethrins did not work. You wonder if the actual repellent was canola oil. Or maybe the oil retards the breakdown of the pyrethrins.

One of the synthetic pyrethroids providing long-term protection in the study was cyfluthrin. Cyfluthrin alone is available in a Bayer product (check labels). Cyfluthrin alone was more effective than a cyfluthrin + Merit combo also produced by Bayer, and would be less likely to cause a spidermite outbreak. It sounds like cyfluthrin would be a better choice than Sevin for those who are going to use synthetic insecticide. Of course you are not going to get 19 days protection on roses, since it's the flowers and new leaves that the JBs go after.

Or if there's something in Rapeseed Oil or its GM version Canola Oil that is an effective insecticide?

I'm glad I'm not the only one confused by that study. lol

I've never used sevin, and I hadn't even thought about it. Last year I tried a spray that I got from our garden center with imicidlciiod (I can't spell either), and it was OK. Nothing great but better than nothing. I see a lot of people say the beetles are just a fact of life & to deal with them. I understand. I would never expect perfection in gardening. I don't know if it's just an unfortunate circumstance of this particular season, but the week my roses finally opened, the JB's arrived. I can put up w/a lot mid season. But if this is going to happen every year the moment my roses give me their flush, I'm probably better off without roses. =( Cut flowers are wonderful, but not my spring flush.

I really appreciate the information posted here. I know if there's a way to combat these devils, we'll hear about it here first.

BTW it's interesting re: the Lindens in that article. Mine is a new neighborhood. The first year or 2 we didn't have a problem with Japanese beetles. Then the builder planted Lindens around the neighborhood. The 5 trees that died as a result of beetles were Little Leaf Lindens. The other types of Lindens sustained major leaf damage but nothing life/health threatening. However there are several people in the neighborhood considering cutting down the Lindens to stop enticing beetles. I'd much rather help them come up w/better solutions. I don't want to see any trees being cut down. =(

If the linden trees are still young, I think it would make sense to replace them with something else. They must look bad for a couple of months, their growth will be retarded, and they probably do entice a lot of roaming beetles to settle down and reproduce in your neighborhood. It's like crepe myrtles really shouldn't be planted in the South. CM is a primary beetle target and it only blooms in JB season.

But according to the article, the lindens possibly could be protected with two sprays of synthetic pyrethroids per year, 3 weeks apart. Unfortunately, that won't work for roses.

I suspect the basic reason for the continuing worsening of the JB plague is that, as the country grows richer and the suburbs expand, more and more turf is being irrigated. As long as people were willing to let their lawns go brown in summer, periodic droughts would set the JB population way back every few years. There's not a whole lot of irrigated turf in my neighborhood, and the JB populations here cycle between moderate and light. But just a mile away, a friend who lived by a golf course faced onslaughts on the scale of Olga's.

Then, the range is still expanding. I guess they haven't been in Minnesota very long. Maybe lawn-conscious people will get smarter about dealling with the grubs.

Maybe that's why my JB's never seem as bad as some folks--no one in my neighborhood irrigates turf. In fact, we are mostly natural woods, with very little in the way of "lawn." I have Two small patches of lawn...but I don't irrigate it. I let it go dormant in the summer. (The pluses of having cool season grass...it's SUPPOSED to go dormant in the summer!)

melanie

Melanie, my neighborhood is like that, mostly woods. There are a few irrigators. With the droughty summers we've been having lately, JBs have been down for several years.

Cool season grass is supposed to go dormant, but a lot of people nowadays are ashamed to let that happen. It can be kept green with an exorbitant amount of water, more than roses can use.

Brown lawn = very few baby JBs make it through August.

Thanks so much, everybody, for all of this very helpful information and good suggestions! I have a lot to think about. At this point, I think I'll probably not use the Sevin, but I may experiment with one rose, The Prince, who they are attacking rather badly. If I do so, I'll be sure and only spray in the evening after the bees are in bed. Actually, so far the JBs are not too bad this year, but of course its very early in the season yet, and things may get a lot worse (I have been doing grub treatments in my own yard for the past 2 years, and of course never water my "lawn", such as it is, but have no control over what the neighbors do). Anyway, thank you all very much!

If you want to apply IPM principles to controlling JBs - which I would definitely encourage any rose grower to do - it isn't really necessary to turn your lawn into a dust bowl.

JBs are susceptible to one disease (milky spore) and three common insect predators (two tiphiid wasps and a tachinid fly). Some of our common backyard birds feed on JBs as well.

You can establish milky spore yourself in your lawn - better yet, encourage the whole neighborhood to join in. JB grubs damage lawns and that's a big incentive to do something, even for people who don't grow roses.

As for the insect predators - if JBs have been around your area for a while, their predators are around as well. It's just a matter of planting what those insects like, and they will come. If JBs are new in your area, your local ag agent can tell you if the predators have arrived.

Attracting birds isn't all that hard either.

These natural controls won't totally manage the JBs in most locales - you may still need an insecticide - but they will do a lot to decrease the population and reduce the amount of insecticide you have to apply.

A friend used to mist his roses with Sevin in the evening, after bees had retired for the day. Beetles would roll out dead in the morning. He just very lightly sprayed the flowers and buds.
Sevin is not, of course, the deadliest spray around - relatively non toxic to warm blooded animals and not much of a problem for birds. But it does kill bees and that is a major difficulty.
I too am fortunate enough to live in an area where green lawns are of no interest - and the prevailing summer breezes come from the woods and swamp - not of any interest to beetles. I don't have grass myself (why waste space that could be used for growing flowers?) and though I may get 10 or 12 beetles in the course of a summer, they aren't that much of a problem. The birds take care of some of them (and probably eat grubs as well). Also, many lawns around here were treated with milky spore years ago when a local firm was manufacturing it.

Oldroser,

You are indeed fortunate that your area was treated w/ milky spore years ago! I've tried getting all our neighbors together so that we would all treat our lawns & gardens w/ milky spore but nobody was interested. I then tried the grub control route & again, nobody was interested.

I'd love to try the milky spore in my hood though...sigh...

Betty

I put milky spore down a few years ago. It's probably time to do it again.

I have noticed fewer JBs this year. The past couple we had throngs. One year, my neighbors cherry tree was almost defoliated in one day!

Many of my roses are not blooming, it's too hot. I have one or two blooming here and there. I am averaging about 10-20 JBs a day. I am picking them off, because I figure that's a few hundred less for next year.

It was my understanding that JBs require some degree of moisture for their eggs to hatch. I don't know how long the eggs remain viable, but I read that droughts drastically reduce the success of "hatching" and, therefore, the adult population the following year. The drier the soil, the less likely eggs will be successful.

Of course, when/if they hatch they need something to eat. My yard is more weeds than grass. I don't treat the lawn and don't water, yet the grubs always manage to survive, if not downright thrive. Do they only eat grass roots? I don't know, but would be willing to bet that they make do with other tender roots when turf grasses are not plentiful. I've also found them in a pile of soil (and the compost pile) where nothing except lambs quarters grow. They looked fat and healthy. Curse them!

I wish I had saved the link. It also talked about how the females mate, deposit a few eggs in the soil, lay low for a few days, then return to mate and lay more eggs again. This cycle continues for 4-6 weeks. From the standpoint of evolution, this is an extremely successful mating strategy, as it increases the likelihood of producing at least some robust offspring. No wonder they're so incorrigible.

It's enough to make you think about putting temporary "moats" of dry sand or kitty litter or the like around the perimeter of roses, so that the deposited eggs would end up in a medium that would prevent hatching. Then you could just gather it up and find a method to destroy the whole thing -- eggs and all. But it would be an exercise in futility if you had a rainy spell, even if it was the least bit practical.

Haven't tried sevin. I tried imidicloprid one year, but it had little repellent effect, so it wasn't worth the expense, time, and effort. I just trap them now. Even if it has no real effect on their reproductive rate, it's an efficient way to collect and destroy, and it keeps most of them off the roses. Either way, they're just as dead as if I spent hours chasing them around with a bucket of soapy water. The small number that make it to the rose bushes can be handled easily, if so desired.

I deadhead all the roses, but the good repeaters will start setting buds before the JBs have left for the year, so there's always something popping up to attract the marauding hordes. They zone right in on a new bud, before you have even seen it to cut it off.

Before the garden and rose addiction, if we wanted to take advantage of a nice day and hang out some clothes and bedding to dry on the clothesline, the JBs were very attracted to the bright whites and loud, floral colors (such as you find on brightly colored swimsuits). If you think JBs on roses is an obscene image, just watch them have an orgy on your clean bedding. It's enough to make you want to poke your eyes out. :-)

* Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on
Wed, Jun 27, 07 at 15:31

If the linden trees are still young, I think it would make sense to replace them with something else. They must look bad for a couple of months, their growth will be retarded, and they probably do entice a lot of roaming beetles to settle down and reproduce in your neighborhood. It's like crepe myrtles really shouldn't be planted in the South. CM is a primary beetle target and it only blooms in JB season.

But according to the article, the lindens possibly could be protected with two sprays of synthetic pyrethroids per year, 3 weeks apart. Unfortunately, that won't work for roses.

Thank you Michael. I appreciate your knowledge & advice. I hate to see the Lindens go because it sickens me to kill a tree. Also, I'm sure I'd probably be the only one to replace them with something else. And if nothing else, it bothers me because my husband was right about them all along. D'oh! Perhaps synthetic pyrethroids may stall the inevitable.

Everyone on my street treated their lawn, except the man next door who bought the stuff but forgot to use it. =-O The best thing we have going for us so far are the browning lawns. Though the monsters have started to hatch, I haven't seen the waves of JBs coming from the lawns yet.

Does anyone know this about JB's & crispy earth: The drought may hinder hatching, but will it eventually KILL the rest of the grubbs? IOW, telling my dh to not to water the lawn is going to be like telling him no baseball this summer. But if it would only take a coupla weeks to kill those bastids maybe it would be worth it for him?

Thanks everyone!!!

mehearty, when we bought this property it came with two mature hazelnut trees, closely related to lindens. Those trees were infested with JBs in the summer, along with a cherry tree that was another beetle attractant. That first summer I actually started to think the previous owners sold because the JBs drove them out. That's how many there were. My dh actually would suck them up off the trees with the leaf vac. It was disgusting. I couldn't take it anymore. And I hadn't even started growing roses yet.

Removing those trees was the best thing we could do. It was sad, but it really did reduce the JB population in our yard in subsequent years.

Thank you Veilchen. I really appreciate your advice especially since I think we live in close proximity. It may take me a few years before I'm ready to let the Lindens go (*sob*) but you've got me thinking. There are definitely prettier trees to replace them with.

Thank you =)

~MH

The JB life cycle has at least two parts that are set back by dry soil (as long as the soil is clay and not sand). Fall, if the soils's so hard that the larvae can't burrow down into it to feed and then to hibernate.
Spring, when they try to come up to start feeding. And now summer when the soil entombs them as well.
FWIW, June Bugs, the ones that look like Japanese Beetles on steroids- a bigger version that tends to fly within two feet of the ground- have just emerged from our yard. The inch of rain let them out. JBs are still entombed.

Before putting money in Milky Spore, read all the labels you can find. We didn't buy MS because of the spacing needed for treating, the requirment that soil moisture be maintained, and as I recall, some winter temperature restrictions that would have been limiting here, some years.

From what I've read, the most effective drought is one that includes weeks during and after egg-laying / hatching. The small grubs aren't able to move around through hard soil to find the food and moisture they need.

Has anyone tried cutting off the blooms and throwing them in a white bucket of water? Let the beetles gorge and drown.

I for one will never use poisons in my garden that could kill harmless bees and butterflies, especially if they could take it back to their nest and cause problems in the hive. I just won't do it. I would rather cut all the blooms off and bring them inside. Or, just let them have their way with the blooms.

Just bumping this informative thread.

Beetles are suddenly noticeable here, buzzing all around the open spaces. We had a rain yesterday that probably encouraged them to dig out.

From bettym grow on Sevin: "When your bud opens, spray the inside of the flower."

Just want to remind everyone not to do as bettym does.

BB!

So good to hear from ya girl! How have you been? Haven't heard your good natured threads in a looong time!

Hey, BTW BB, where the sexy picks of yourself in your garden with your bees you were promising me? I really want to see ya girlie! Did ya get yourself a cute bikini top to snap that pick in??

Yes, you just reminded me, I do have pick up some more Sevin, I'm all out at the moment & your thread just reminded me of what I need to do this weekend. My buds & blooms are doing marvelously, gladly, who knows why, I don't see as many JB's this summer Woo Hoo! Less spraying & more sun bathing!

So, come on girl! show that beutiful face & cleavage! Be gutsy, be daring & enjoy life!:)

Luv ya girl! (You spice up my life sweetie!)

I was in the midst of cleaning my kitchen floor but talking to you is way more exciting. I think it is for you too:)

Betty

Is all the bumping & attacking necessary BB? =(

Flip side of the coin--is all the in-your-face taunting necessary?

Kate

Hi Kate!

Taunting? I hope you don't mean me Kate, I simply mind my own business. Can I help it if BB is bored & indirectly posts me?
I know her wily ways so I know she would like to hear from me periodically:) I don't take her jabs seriously because I know it is all in FUN! You should realize this Kate & not take it personally, I sure don't.

I like BB, I'm just waiting for that sexy pic from her!

Come on BB! Where are ya girl?

Betty

Give it a rest, please.

Kate

Kate, If you are too pooped to party than sit down, some of us here wanna dance:)

I'm always game...

Betty