I used to live in Olympia (Washington) and I grew roses there in that Pacific Northwest climate. I haven't grown many of the roses on your list, and almost none of them when I was in Washington. Let's see what I can tell you. Alberic Barbier is a great beauty, lovely foliage and blooms; gets pretty large and has one big flowering with scattered blooms following. I don't remember seeing AB growing in Washington but suspect it does well there. Easy to grow and superbly healthy. Chianti: I've seen this rose a couple of times in Italy and it's spectacular in bloom. It's once-blooming and large and I don't know now it does in the PNW. Konigin von Danemark: this is a beautiful rose, more deeply colored and thornier than most of the Albas, and harder to propagate from cuttings, at least in my experience; but a splendid variety. I had a lot of Albas in Olympia and they were every one of them beautiful fragrant roses, healthy and easy to grow: I recommend them all highly. Nur Mahal: I've had this rose for years and it has never reached its potential, but I've heard (often) that it can be great. I didn't discover the Hybrid Musks until after I moved to Italy, but I bet that they're the PNW shrub roses par excellence. I love this class, especially the Pemberton musks, for their fine foliage and habit, beautiful and sweetly scented blooms, and overall air of grace and luxuriance. They're easy to grow. Queen Elizabeth: this is a fine stout upstanding rose that was common in Washington when I lived there and grows all over here in Italy as well. I had it one time and got rid of it because I couldn't detect any scent. It's easy to turn up one's nose at QE because she grows everywhere and has no fragrance, but I bet she's still going to be around in a hundred years (the rose, not the monarch), and looking quite handsome in old age. Rose de Rescht. I had it in Olympia and didn't love it, but it grew well and I don't remember any disease. I have it here too but my cutting-grown plants are still growing. Fragrant and a good dark color. Sharifa Asma. A pretty rose, pale pink but I always think of it as white, with a superb scent, one of the best. I have SA for its fragrance; note also that it's easy to grow. I had a lot of DA roses in Olympia and adored them, but they were never vigorous for me. I suspect they needed fatter living--more water and nutrients--than I generally supplied my roses, and possibly a sunny warm spot in the garden. Stanwell Perpetual. Had it there, have it here, suspect I've never brought the best out of it. Beautiful little shapely fragrant blooms, pale pink with a button eye, on a wiry thorny open very tough bush that has nifty Pimpinellia foliage and likes to sucker. One of the first and last to flower. For me in Olympia many of my best roses were the once-blooming old roses: I had Albas, Gallicas, and Mosses, and loved them all. I didn't get around to Centifolias (except for Crested Moss, which was superb) and Damasks, but would certainly want to try them if I lived there. Bourbons didn't do much for me in Olympia. I suspect many of them needed more heat than they got: 'Louise Odier' is a far stronger plant here than in Olympia; and I'm finally allowing 'Mme. Pierre Oger' back in my garden here after suffering with her black-spotted wimpy predecessor in my Washington garden. As I mentioned above, I hadn't yet discovered Hybrid Musks when I was in Olympia, but think they would be wonderful. Another small group to look into would be 'Mlle. Cécile Bruenner' and related roses: they're a reasonable size, have enchanting little flowers and foliage, are healthy as can be and aren't like anything else in the rose world. And then there are Kordes's Fruehlings- roses, big fragrant once-blooming species hybrids of great character and beauty, and some of the early-flowering species yellows like 'Canary Bird' and R. hugonis, that bloom, I think, with the lilacs. Most of the roses I've listed are shrubs, some quite large, and many are once-blooming; they're also informal in style and for garden design purposes best thought of as landscape shrubs. These are the kind of roses I love, but they may not be your taste in roses. More upright and contained varieties with large flowers and repeat bloom are more formal: they include most Hybrid Teas and Floribundas, many Hybrid Perpetuals, and the Portlands/Hybrid Damasks. I don't know much about these, but there will be some varieties that will be adapted to the mild wet winters, dry summers, and lack of summer heat of western Washington. I never had much trouble with disease in my garden, and would take with a grain of salt what eastern growers say about disease resistance of their roses. Olga knows exactly what she's talking about, but she has high blackspot pressure in her garden, and in my experience this isn't much of a problem in Washington; a rose that defoliates for her might do quite well for you. I never sprayed my roses. One hybrid Tea that does well in Washington I believe is the old variety 'Radiance', which also has numerous sports. Melissa

A horrible non-summer here, horrid late freezes which destroyed blossom on tons of fruit, drought till March then it rained.......and rained....and rained some more. It is raining now. Roses have all put out loads of vegetative growth, not so many blooms and fungal nightmares are lurking everywhere. Absolute rubbish- ZEPHIRINE DROUHIN, PHILIPPA RENAISSANCE, LILIANA RENAISSANCE, SUMMER SONG, HOT CHOCOLATE Struggling, but surviving- FALSTAFF, JUDE and PAT AUSTIN, my troika of Austins, planted in the same garden area, and all looking a bit ropy. JAQUES CARTIER/MARQUESA BOCCHELLA- doing itS usual collapse and continual dieback from every bud. CARDINAL HUME- a blackspotter, but so lovely. Completely naked - MUTABILIS, also struggling and looking dread - WILD EDRIC Looking unexpectedly chipper - NASTARANA and ICEBERG, in my rose hedge, look promising and co-operative - somewhat worried about the endless snaky growth of AYRESHIRE SPLENDENS. Top of the class - a bunch of Lens hybrid musks - JACQUELINE HUMERY, MATCHBALL, SIBELIUS, PLEINE DE GRACE - completely free of disease. DARLOWS ENIGMA - I believe this is going to thrive in East Anglia, PENNY LANE, a little Harkness climber completely pristine, as is another Harkness climber, PERPETUALLY YOURS. Also (and I was warned otherwise, MEG is doing really well and so is NAHEMA - a very refined rose (for me) but surprisingly healthy. Also, another Kordes rose, JASMINA, vigorous and healthy - just the odd spotty leaf. Finally, spotless AIMEE VIBERT, R.POMIFERA DUPLEX, HELENAE HYBRID, LEONTINE GERVAISE and all the pimpinellas and early spring species are weathering the lack of any real summer sun.

harmonyp, I can't speak for Mme. Isaac Pereire, one of the large Bourbons, but SdlM should do well for you. It's not the least fazed by dry heat. I should mention though that I have two and the one that has mostly morning shade and then hot afternoon sun can't in any way be compared with the gorgeous one that has sun for most of the day but for a good part of the year has early evening shade. I did have Souv. de Dr. Reynaud, a large Bourbon with very fragrant flowers, but I didn't keep it very long because of its lanky growth habit and more sporadic bloom, and mostly because the blooms fried very quickly. If you can plant Mme. Isaac in a place with afternoon shade that would probably be optimal for you. The SdlM sport, Kronprinzessin Viktoria von Preussen, and another, Mme. Cornelissen, also do very well for me, but again they usually don't get the blazing early evening sun. Ingrid

Well, Im backand Ill see if I can stay coherent enough to say something logical, but, boy, am I beat! I replaced my two whisky barrels todayexpected it to be an hour or hour and a half joband it took me FOUR hours! I figured I could just put the new ones near the old ones, shovel half the soil into the new ones, shove the old ones out of the way and the new ones in place, and then finish moving the soil into the new onesbut it didnt work! When I got about half way down into the soil in the old ones I ran into rock mulch and clay mixed together and impossibly compacted. It couldnt be shoveled, and had to be chiseled out bit by bitand I obviously couldnt move the old ones till they were empty since they were filled with heavy rock and clay. I still need to move more new soil out there to finish filling them, but the new ones are in place and look goodand with liners in them theyll be much easier to keep watered, and they should last a long, long time. I love your idea of making pretty much of a succulent garden out of the area! There are a lot of cool different sedums, and an endless array of semps. And, for another true succulent, I recommend adding two or three of the iceplants. Im not sure if its because you raised the one end of the garden, or if its because part of the building is gone, but your recent pictures sure make the area look bigger than the old/last picture you posted. I really like what youve done with it. Is the basement door enclosure going to be on what appears to be the old footing? Whats the purpose of the row of concrete blocks? Are they temporary until you get the new structure up? My first thought was to suggest you move the hardy pampas grass over so its right against the front corner of the new enclosureor back against the house wall in the corner against the enclosure, but it sounds like youre not game for that adventure! The only reason I suggest that is because the Saccharum gets SO big (I have one too) that its going to tend to hide pretty much anything you put behind it. Im picturing it with the Saccharum moved, but either way, I think it would look nice with a couple taller things back against the house to break up the "plain wall" look. For some very xeric things Id recommend Russian sage and/or one of the Agastaches. If Russian sage, my favorite variety is Longinit tends to stay a bit more upright and compact than the other varieties or straight species. If Agastache, just pick your favoriteas long as its one of the fairly tall ones. I think a combination of Perovskia and Agastache would look really nice together. For one more taller thing, I recommend a couple Solidago, goldenrod. You could go with a taller variety in lieu of the Perovskia or Agastache, but Id recommend one of the shorter varieties, more in front of the other two. That would get some yellow in the picture. One of my favorite varieties, because of the form of the flowers, is Golden Baby at about 24" high. I have a "baby" one I got at the Fall Swap, so it hasnt bloomed yet. Any/all of those would get you some height in the back, and you could then add a few non-succulent things in the foreground and then fill in the remaining area with a randomly placed collection of the various sedums, semps, and iceplants. For the non-succulents one thing you might want to try is Missouri evening primrose, Oenothera macrocarpa (a/k/a O. missouriensis). It has large yellow flowers and develops interesting seedheads, and is supposed to get red fall color. I was under the impression that all the Oenotheras spread a lot, but folks around hereI think maybe David was one of themhave said that it behaves quite well, so that could add a bit of non-succulent foliage And the reason I was asking about the lambs ear is because thats another non-succulent thing I was going to recommendbut I dont like the lambs ear flowers at all, so I was going to suggest the flowerless one, Stachys byzantina Helene von Stein, a/k/a Big Ears. I think the soft white foliage would be a great contrast to the succulents. Another one, that LOVES being dry, is partridge feather, Tanacetum densum ssp. amani. I dont have anywhere dry enough to plant it now, but I absolutely love the foliage on that oneand it would fit right in with, and contrast beautifully with, the succulents. Theres a link below to a pictureclick on the thumbnail to get a good look at the "feathers." With the sedums, I recommend a bunch of different oneswhichever ones you like the best, and the same thing with the hen & chicks. Then Id for sure add some of the yellow iceplant, Gold Nugget, and I really like the white one, White Nugget too. I love the way the iceplant flowers sparkle in the sun! Another very xeric thing you could add that would add some red-orange color would be Zauschneria, but I think that one would look better if it werent run right up against the succulents. If you go to Sweetmagnoliames Groundcover Advice thread (now on page 3), there are a bunch of different pictures of some of my sedums. You can see what some of them look like, and what they look like growing against each other in a couple of the pictures. If you have questions about any specific variety, just let me know. AndI WILL be back down in your neck of the woods (neck of the desert???) again in September, and if I survive my vacation a little bit better than I did last years, Id be glad to bring cuttings of my sedums, and starts for some different hen & chicks along and drop them off when Im on my way homeIll probably spend a day or two at Mesa Verde this year anyway, so Ill be close! With sedum theres always plenty to go around, and Ive already been throwing some on the compost pile again this year. And by fall what I call the "sprawling sedums" will be big enough to bring a few cuttings of them too. Theyre kind of a cross between the upright sedums and the groundcover ones. They get between 6 and 12" high with medium size leaves, and dont spread anywhere near as much as the groundcover ones. Bertram Anderson is one of them, but, actually, Im not positive which varieties I havesince they just happened to fall into my pocket when I was looking at plants one time! ;-) And I could also bring a start for S. sieboldii, October Daphne. Its a really cool looking, non-spreading one. With your "soil," if it were me I would definitely add some type of organic matter before you do any serious planting. Itll just make everything so much easier down the road that I think youll be way glad you did itand I think the plants will be a lot happier too. Are you one of the people who has access to WELL AGED manure? I dont see why that wouldnt work. Or any other kind of good quality organic matterhome grown or store bought compost, or moist Canadian peat. Youre already a good gardener! You know what I mean! With wateringwhile the succulents will definitely be ok with very little supplemental watering, they will spread much more quickly and develop good root systems much better if they are regularly watered for at least the first year/season. So, in the interest of developing a pretty garden more quickly, Id recommend a pretty good (not hand held hose) watering about once a week for the first growing season (about an inch). If you get this all put in late in the summer, Id probably recommend a watering program for the first half, at least, of next spring/summer. Oh! Before I forget, thats a really interesting little Allium you have there! When I asked, I almost said, the one with the Allium type flower, but Ive never ever seen an Allium with leaves like that, and didnt think it could possibly be Allium! Cool looking plant! And one more thing before I go! I recommend you cut your Angelina down to about an inch, and then stick the cuttings to make another plant. Do you want me to post my Propagating Sedums blurb that I printed out and took along to the swap for the people who got sedum cuttings? Glad to do it if youre interested. Youll find Angelina is one of the very fast spreading sedumsand its also one of the ones that will root anywhere if you happen to drop little bits of it when youre working with it. So dont be surprised if they seem to start "springing up" here and there! Gonna go for tonight and see if I can crawl up to bed, but Im sure Ive forgotten something, so just let me know what it is! Skybird