Today my future DIL reported that she saw a squirrel running along the top of the fence with a red rose in its mouth. The only red one I could think of was Polonaise, and sure enough the new bloom I saw this morning was gone. As we walked further in the garden past Louis Philippe, DIL said "maybe it was this one." I said no, his canes won't support a squirrel and there are no flowers near the fence. Then she went to the spot where she saw him drop it. Turned out to be LP. As I walked back to Polonaise, I noticed several bare pedunkles!! I guess it's time for the hardware cloth. I don't like squirrels! Sherry

I don't know if which zone 4 you're in, but here in the Northeast zone 5 Westerland was a dud. I've tried it twice -- once grafted and once on its own root. Each winter seemed to weaken it further. Westerland died back to the ground every winter, never got more than 2.5 feet tall, and was a stingy rebloomer. It's too bad because it sure is a pretty rose. I tried Autumn Sunset once; it died completely over the winter and never came back. I didn't try it again. Also unfortunate, because it's beautiful. You might have some luck with Zephy, but it will almost certainly die if the temps reach -18 or so. I grow Zephy and it's one of the better performing Bourbons, but it will be a goner if we get a coldest zone 5 winter again. It doesn't get big here, just under 6 feet tall, but it blooms reliably and there is some rebloom. Maybe if you protect it you'll get better mileage. Even so, in your zone it's going to take a good 2 or 3 years to get established. That's one of the things a cold zone is good for -- learning patience! :-) I don't protect any of my roses, so maybe additional protection would help. But I think zone 4 might be a push for these roses. I don't know anything about Full Moon Rising, so can't speak to that. Best of luck!

Big Moon is available from Twilley http://www.twilleyseed.com/ at $78.00 per lb or as low as $59.00 per lb in 25 lb lots. They also have New Moon but not Full Moon. Johnny's http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/product.aspx?category=1&subcategory=599&item=2666T carries Full Moon at $118 per 1000 seed.

mjh and mucknmire, thanks for the worldplants info. Sometimes ya just can't afford to buy all your plants nice and big. I'm glad to hear their trees are good quality. I did buy a Sharp's Pygmy this weekend at a local nursery because of the year guarantee, and I did also buy a little Beni Otaki on Ebay because the price was great (this is beginning to sound like a confession), and I may yet get one more little one to put in a pot from worldplants, because their prices are so good. Maiku Jaku ended up at the top of my list because I really like the photos I've seen of it, but then I decided I really need to go SMALL (I have very limited space). I just hope the palmatums I bought prove hardy enough for my conditions. If not, next year, it'll be one of the japonicums. Thanks for the worldplants info. Christina