I'd think they could work together on a wall that size, Ingrid. You could shorten their eventual length by providing them greater height. The large one in Old Orchard, Valencia, is as long as it is because the wall is shorter than 6', so I've had to stretch it out farther to keep it shorter. Even then, it still loves growing over the wall into the neighbor's back yard. If you want to center them only on that 18' wall, I'd plant one 6' in from one end, then the other 6' further down the wall so they are at 6' and 12' from the one end. If you want to curve one around on to the second wall, add probably 6' to the 18', for 24' total. Split that into thirds, planting one 8' from one end, the second 16' from the same end so they have equal room to spread. Kim

Jana, thanks for the info on Tantau's Nostalgic series. I'll take a look at Piano. I actually also got a Chippendale this spring, and mine has not bloomed yet either, so I guess we can compare notes later this year. I also remember looking at Heidi Klum, so any more info and pics on yours will certainly be appreciated. Princess Alexandra of Kent is not that vivid, but of a deeper pink with a very distinct smoky salmon tint, quite nice actually. Lots of petals in nice formation, it looks superb when it slowly unfolds. It lasts quite well on the bush and in the vase too. I really like its scent, old rose with tea, I'd say. Young Lycidas is of a very vivid color, but I'd put him more into the purple-cerise group. Toward the end his huge blooms fade into a nice soft mauve. And the fragrance is really superb. Claire Austin, now that's a very very vigorous, extremely healthy rose (basically no BS in my no-spray garden), and a very good bloomer too so far. Looks like it wants to be a climber. Its flowers open light lemon fading to white or cream white, with a complex myrrhy scent, not too bad. It blooms in clusters and the blooms are very cup shaped. It's pretty, but I think it just looks a little pale somehow, perhaps because it doesn't quite have the radiant quality of say, Margaret Merrill or even Fair Bianca, and the blooms tend to not quite fully open, staying cupped pretty much until the petals drop. Currently, mine is a tall arching shrub (in its second year with me), but I think it'll look better with some support as a climber, perhaps next to a dark red rose like WS2K. Anyway, so far it has proven to be an excellent garden rose, so I can certainly recommend it. Roselovr, sounds all very good, especially if you're already familiar and comfortable with Nikon and perhaps own some Nikon glass already - did you get the D5000? We'd certainly love to see some pictures! Andrea

Just gorgeous pictures, OldRosarian - they look so much better in your yard than mine! You have great insights on how big these climbers can get in more congenial zones, which is probably a maximum possible height we wouldn't achieve in our zones, Mandy. Wonderful arbor that you built - you most certainly ARE a carpenter if you can put together an arbor of such grace and utility combined. I grow or have grown most of the climbers you list, so I'll give you my two cents about their potential in our zone 5 yard. Some of them should be situated in protected areas since they may not survive zone 5 and certainly wouldn't climb at all. Some would grow to large bushes as OldRosarian says, and wouldn't suit your pergola. Some might grow and bloom in some years but not others depending on the harshness of the winter, so you wouldn't want to depend on them as a focal point. Here's my experience with your climbers: Aloha - terrific hardy rose and good rebloomer in zone 5. Has still canes though, and isn't a likely candidate for a pergola. I have mine as a freestanding bush and it's between 6-7' high. Not climbing an arch, and you'd have to do a fair bit of manipulation to get it to bend over a round arch, much less the more abrupt edges of the arbour you show. Still, it would make a lovely statement at one of the corners, and might reach some fingers over the side onto the top near that corner. Autumn Sunset - a good option for flexible canes, and even in our zones it might make it to the top of the arbor and a bit beyond. It's pretty hardy and has survived in my zone 4 spot fine, though in part shade for me it doesn't bloom very much. Blossomtime - marginally hardy in my yard - needs a protected spot. I'm trying it again this year, but I doubt it would climb even if I can get it to survive. I'll be treating this one as a bush Carolyn Dean - haven't grown this one Compassion - Lived a few years for me but also died on an average winter. It climbed a bit (maybe 6') but also would benefit from some protection. Crème de la Crème - not hardy even in the zone 6 part of my yard. Didn't even pretend to survive the winter in three tries. Danny Boy - haven't grown this one. Darlow's Enigma - Rock solid hardy, pretty much constantly blooming, but unlikely to climb. It really works best as a large shrubby standalone bush, and I never see it putting out the long canes that would climb an arbor like this. I'd use it as a pillar standalone at another of the corners of your arbor. E. Veyrat Hermanos - also unlikely to survive in our zone, and it didn't have a smidgen of growth in the spring after winter in a warm spot of the yard. Eden - this is one of the roses that will bloom once in a good year if there's surviving cane, but not at all if it needs to be pruned to the ground or nearly so. It's gorgeous in a good year and has lived for maybe 7 years in my zone 4 pocket, but has only bloomed twice in those 7 years, and only once in each of those years. It has stiff canes and could hold down another corner of the pergola in the back, as long as you don't notice it not doing anything outside of late May/early June. Emmanuella de Mouchy - haven't tried this one yet, but it sounds like it prefers zone 6 and warmer, and I don't expect it to get beyond bush height if it survives. I'm pondering it for an order this year, but only on those expectations. Grandma's Hat - this one is reliably tall and reblooms well for me, and is pretty darned hardy considering it's a California found rose. This would get at least partway over the arch for you and deserves a good spot on the pergola. Hattie Burton - haven't grown this one. Isabella Skinner - this one is new for me last year, so no personal info. Supposed to be reasonably hardy though, and most of the roses that High Country Roses sells survive our winters well. John Davis - the Canadian Explorers like this are your best bet for getting true climbers to cover things. My John Davis is still young, but it may not get to be a huge climber even though it's very hardy (hmf puts it at 7'). My Canadian explorers that climb well are Alexander Mackenzie, John Cabot, and of course the unbeatable and unstoppable Quadra. Leander - don't have this one. New Dawn - I've had two of these fail to overwinter, though of course it's rated for our zones. According to reports, this one should be good to climb your arch reliably, but its canes are not flexible when of a good enough size to climb, so it would be more of the type of rose to reach over the top of the pergola and fill in the top center than to wind up the sides. Perhaps you could let the shorter climbers like Autumn Sunset or Westerland with flexible canes do the winding but not covering the top, and let a few roses like New Dawn stretch up to cover the bare spaces on top that other roses couldn't reach Old Wollerton Hall - new for me last summer. Didn't know this one climbed - hmf has it topping out at 5', and it probably wouldn't do that much in our zones Papi Delbard - I love the look of this rose, but in 4 years it hasn't topped knee high after winter kill in my zone 5. It might have finally died last summer (it's small enough it's easy to miss) so I'm replacing it with another one in a warmer spot. My experience has been that it doesn't want to climb in our zone, and need protection to get big at all. A much better climber though stiff is Polka. Paul Transon - haven't grown this one Pearly Gates - died immediately after mild winters two separate times. It might survive in a particularly warm spot but I doubt it would climb. Pink Powderpuff - don't have this one, but hmf lists it as z6 default, and no one in a cold zone is listed under gardens. I'd be cautious about considering it a climber in our zones Souvenir du President Lincoln - I've found the Bourbons, aside from Mme. Isaac Periere, to be fairly tender in my zone, so I'd also be cautious about considering this one a climber. HMF only lists this one as 5' anyway at best. MIP is a decent climber, but only has a few blooms here and there after the spring flush. The Lady of The Lake - haven't grown this one Westerland - a good option for winding around some of the pillars or supports, as the canes stay pretty flexible. Mine hasn't gotten that big yet, but Harryshoe posted some killer pictures of Westerland in z6 climbing an arch, and I think it would climb decently if not enthusiastically for us. Zepherine Drouhin - also marginally hardy for me, and didn't survive in an average z5 spot in two tries. I have it again in a warmer virtual zone 6 spot, and we'll see if it survived last winter. From what I know about the roses you list, the ones most likely to climb far enough to reach toward the center of that arch would be Grandmother's Hat, John Davis, and New Dawn, with Isabella Skinner, Westerland and Autumn Sunset doing a respectable job filling in the gaps. Aloha, Darlow's Enigma and Eden plus some other stiff rose could hold down the edges, then you can hedge your bets with some of the others in spots where shrubs could work if they don't climb. The Austins tend to be hardy for me, I just haven't grown Leander or Lady of the Lake. Other climbers that would be potentially more reliable climbers include Florentina, Nahema, Mme. Carolyn Testout, Lunar Mist, Colette, Jeanne LaJoie (as previously mentioned) and any of the large Canadian explorers. You might give a thought to some of the spectacular once-bloomers, since they'd cover the arch reasonably well and give a background to the smaller climbers after they're done with their bloom cycles. Hope this helps - you have a lovely space to work with. Cynthia

Vaporvac, ac91z6 - I have both Florentina and Princess Alex de Lux, and I highly recommend them both. Florentina I've had for about 4 years and it's an enthusiastic bloomer all season with entirely cane hardy survival in an average zone 5 spot. The blooms are very full and dark red and it's among my favorite climbers these days. PadL is newer, since she just went in last spring, but I can already tell she's a typically enthusiastic Kordes rose. She's putting out canes in every direction trying to elbow wimpy neighbors out of the way, and I've seen clusters of those thickly petaled blooms off and on all season. She hasn't gotten to her third season yet so her repeat isn't all that frequent, but I don't expect that in a rose's second year. I think she had some but not all surviving cane over the winter, which is typical of most of my roses. Both were from Palatine for me, and both have done extremely well. Cynthia