The rose in the photo is definitely not CdC with those smooth, red-edged leaves: it's a modern rose with a good deal of China somewhere in its ancestry.
No nursery I've ever had to do with has been totally error-free, but there are the handful that make large numbers of mistakes, and I avoid them. Sometimes the errors are beauties. I ordered 'Georges Vibert', a striped Gallica, once, and instead got a Gallica-looking plant, but with creamy white flowers with a waxy petal texture and the most heavenly scent. So I have no regrets, though I still haven't managed to get my hands on 'Georges Vibert'. I think my lovely mistake may be 'Madame Zoetmans'.
Back when I lived in Washington I used to order from Heirloom (and I must say I usually got what I ordered). They were my introduction to old roses, in fact. One really nice mistake they sent me turned out to be 'White Wings'. I've been wanting another plant ever since I moved here.
Melissa

Jeri,
A spectrum of unsuitable errors! Well, I'll just be grateful that my imposter is lovely and fragrant...and at least it's only one sweet mistake. I will truly miss Vintage Gardens. Those guys are brilliant and so detail oriented! I've really enjoyed reading your posts, by the way. Your knowledge, humor, and heavenly garden photos bring joy to my heart.

Nastarana,
Ah, yes. The remontant impossibles! We'll see if I have one of those in my La Ville de Bruxelles pot. Wow! Jacques really gets around. He's so many roses that he isn't--Comte, Konigin, etc. I have Indigo and she's delicious here in PDX, but she sure is a thug when grown own-root. I've resorted to incarcerating her in a separate bed with two thorny companions--Stanwell Perpetual and Bayse's Purple. Otherwise her stolons pop up all around her fellow OGRs and mimic and choke them. Her companions' stems are so different from hers that I instantly know what sproutlings to shovel prune.

Melissa,
China ancestry--what good eyes you have! I think the really reddish stem with very smooth leaves was Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona sneaking into the photo. My "Not La Ville" leaves are on the right and matte green. I compared my fake La Ville's leaves to those on Rogue Valley's version of Comte; they're almost identical. Of course, maybe RV sent an imposter, too. Now that would be ironic. However, all this rambling is not to say that La Ville is definitely Comte.... Roses from Heirloom have been 90% correct for me, too. Really, the only adventure I've experienced is the one involving Comte in some way or other. Oh, Madame Z! That is an intoxicating error. I'd like to get my hands on George Vibert someday, too. Love those striped gallicas. I have a baby Camaieux in my pot ghetto and a mature Rosa Mundi that moved across town with me. I think Peter Beales' mail order nursery carries G. Vibert. Can you order from England and ship to Italy?

Carol, welcome, and thanks for a good laugh.

Thank you, michaelg! It's nice to be aboard.

Carol

RV has not yet figured out that Armide and Mme. Plantier, which they offer both, and both in the same season, are one and the same rose, so not much attention to detail there. I grow both side by side so was able to confirm that they are the same, alas.

You are bringing back to my memory the orders I made from Nino San Remo back in 2005-06: never have I seen such a mess. I was untangling their roses for years, and I got a lot of duplicates. I don't whether they've cleaned up their act since then. They're the only Italian commercial suppliers of own root roses, and the staff was nice and the plants beautiful, but oh! the confusion. I got 'Louise Odier' for--was it 'Jacques Cartier'?--'Duchesse de Montebello' for 'Violacea', I think it was; 'Teasing Georgia' for any number of things; 'James Mitchell' for 'Queen of Denmark', an awful thorny thing for 'Slater's Crimson China' (which no one has reliably identified in any case, as I understand it). I'm actually quite happy to have R. foetida instead of 'Austrian Copper', though I wanted, and got, the latter as well, and I finally figured out that the purported 'Mme. Plantier' is probably 'Mme. Legras de St. Germain' and am glad to have that, too...'Mme. Plantier' finally made it into the garden from cuttings coming from other gardeners. These ancient traumas come back to mind partly because of Carol's thread here, and partly because it occurred to me yesterday for the first time to wonder if my 'Gros Choux d'Hollande', also from NSR, might not actually be 'Jacques Cartier', which I have from a friend who grew it from a cutting, and which is at the other end of the garden. I have no idea whether the true varieties are at all similar; I need to check my two plants out, anyway. It's a disadvantage never to see any roses outside the ones in my own garden: I have no basis for comparison.
Melissa

Nastarana

Oh, no! I have a fragrant, ethereal baby "Armide" from RVR growing in a 2-gallon pot in my driveway ghetto. She's Madame Plantier?! This is going to get ugly. Madame is HUGE! (Did I mention that I garden on a postage stamp?) Armide, according to Paul Barden's site and the RVR site, is supposed to top out around 5'x4'. I was hoping that since RVR posted Paul's photo, its Armide might be spot on. I've never met Paul but have worshiped at his internet temple for many a year. Hmmmm. How large are your Armide/Plantier specimens from RVR? As you said, alas. I've attached a photo of my fragrant, ethereal beauty so everyone can mourn with me while I ponder this new rose identity crisis.

Goodness, Melissa! Life with OGRs is an adventure, isn't it? At least you ended up with a number of pleasant surprises (except for that awful but unidentified thorny beast). According to Nastarana, I may have unwittingly adopted a large-and-in-charge Madame Plantier instead of a mannerly Armide. Perhaps my error is a sign that it's time to jackhammer the driveway and open up new frontiers of bed space.

yep, reclaim the pavement, Portland.....and then start moving in on municipal gardens and public spaces -the local cemetery proved a nifty place to plant Pleine de Grace after misreading the specs (thought it said 6feet....but was 6m instead - gotta sort out my metric and imperial stuff).

I garden on 36square METRES but have a couple of allotments to play on.
Oh yeah, and a wild woodland but am in denial about that.

Hey, welcome to the forum, too.

Great story. These mishaps can really affect our lives. I have two Madame Plantiers, one of them a mistake for Madame Hardy.

Last year, I ordered a 'Zephirine Drouhin' among my "going away gifts" but received a surprise. Instead of ZD, I got a band labeled 'Zitronenfalter'. This was from RVR, and when I called on delivery day, they explained the origin of the error -- plants are placed alphabetically in their greenhouses, and someone likely grabbed a plant from the next tray. They sent a replacement out the following week.

So I'm watching this 'Zitronenfalter' band grow, and I notice a tiny flower starting to form. The only thing was that it was flushed with light pink in the bud. And when it opened, it was definitely light pink, with a tinted-yellow center. I thought maybe it was a freakish flower from a band. But as it grew, it offered other occasional flowers which were all the same color, and sort of semi-double and open in the center. They smelled strongly of black licorice. I searched through RVR's online inventory and decided I must have really received 'Belle Story' with a 'Zitronenfalter' tag instead of the 'Zephirine Drouhin' I originally ordered.

Incidentally, this was the only order I ever had with RVR containing any errors. And there was another error with the order. Instead of the three mystery roses I selected to come with the order, I received three duplicates of named roses already in my order -- an extra each of 'Paul Neyron', 'Mme Isaac Pereire' and 'Charles de Mills'. When I called about the missing 'Zephirine Drouhin' I mentioned this as well, and was told it was all due to a crazy busy spring there. I said I'd just keep the three duplicates as my "mystery roses" but did need a replacement for ZD since it was a gift.

The second story isn't quite the same, but I wanted to share it anyway. This year, I ordered 'Reine des Violettes' from Heirloom. There was a whole thread I posted about what I got being THEIR version of 'Reine des Violettes' (http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0412440120972.html), but in the end, I decided to order "the real thing" from Vintage. And, well, since Vintage ships in groups of four, I added another three as well -- 'Cornelia', 'Rose of Freedom' and 'Nocturne'.

I received an email from Gita a few days later saying that they might not have a 'RdV' and 'Cornelia' available to send. So I picked two alternatives ('Chrysler Imperial' -- yet another future pot-pet fragrant red/crimson HT to add to my collection -- plus the HT 'Heirloom' to go in the ground).

When the order arrived, I was ecstatic -- I got my 'Reine des Violettes'!!! I looked at the invoice, and it seemed that there WAS one available for me. I still got the two alternates, and no 'Cornelia' came. I noticed that a previously-ordered 'Belle de Crecy' which was deemed too small to send with my first shipment wasn't included -- and so they subbed it with 'Reine des Violettes'! Nice turn of events for me.

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Wed, May 22, 13 at 9:40

I'm amazed that Errloom still ships that Portland under the 'Ville de Bruxelles' name, after all these years, and after so many of us have prompted them to correct the mistake.

The plant I was given under the name of 'Armide' (it was a gift from a private grower about fifteen years ago) is likely incorrectly identified, and may in fact be 'Mme. Plantier' as some have suggested. I've compared several plants labeled as 'Mme. Plantier' (which is the real thing I don't know; there have been multiple cultivars appearing under that name) and many appear identical to my "Armide". I can't say that any of this is conclusive information one way or another. So many mislabeled/misidentified OGRs out there.

Paul

I have tried twice to buy La Ville de Bruxelles. The one I have in the ground now repeats very well, and two people have opined that it could be Arillaga. It is an admirably tough plant, kind of wiry, and is blackspot resistant. Here is what it looks like:

My RICA 'Armide' came from RVR, and my 'Mme. Plantier' came from Hartwood. I have them both side by side, and they are indistinguishable. Right now, they are about 5' x5'. PoetlandMysteryRose, have you considred growing your Armide/MP as a climber? MP can be grown that way. Or, possibly someone in Portland, a city famous for gardens and gardeners, might like to trade?

My mislabels, and did I mention the Reine Victoria which turned out to be Reine des Violettes, came from local, retail nurseries, not from any speciality growers. I think someone in the wholesale trade decided that there was a market for OGRs, and decided to put some out without much atention to labelling. Does anyone else remember the year that Wally World was featuring a group of DA ownroots, virused and hilariously mislabelled?

"I have tried twice to buy La Ville de Bruxelles. The one I have in the ground now repeats very well, and two people have opined that it could be Arillaga. It is an admirably tough plant, kind of wiry, and is blackspot resistant."

'Arrilaga' is a warm pink, where your rose is a cool pink. 'Arrilaga' also has fewer petals and looks much more modern in form, not to mention that it has very poor blackspot resistance - in my experience. Your rose looks much more akin to 'Comte de Chambord' or something of that ilk.

erasmus, how tall does your faux Ville grow? The flower in your picture looks a bit like Gartrude Jekyll, AKA Galloping Gert. I believe Ms. le Comte is a parent of GJ.

Campanula

Yes! Goodbye concrete. Goodbye lawns. Immediately upon laying claim to my postage stamp, I ripped out the front lawn to make way for a stonemason colleague to construct retaining walls surrounding my tiny dream garden. Of course he was booked for months, so my latest landscaping adventures began as a whole lotta dry red clay and continuous weed chiseling while suspicious neighbors peered over their porches at the devastation. The arrival of the stonemason and crane triggered a second round of skepticism. After 10 years, the front beds have finally matured into something resembling an intentional design. Thank goodness I don't live with my sister in Dallas, TX. Her neighborhood watch committee includes a landscape nazi who patrols the area and cites anything unconventional or untamed. My sister has a grove of spiderwort, a NATIVE Texas plant, that gets cited every year.

I have big plans for that slab of lotline to foundation concrete! My imagination is already filling it with tangles of rambling floriferous wonderfulness...plus a few blueberries. My new Madame Plantier/Not Armide may be the pioneer.

Thank you for welcoming me aboard! I really enjoy this forum where I've been following your trials and projects in merry ol' England. I've been silently cheering you on, but it's time to retire my wallflower persona and join the participants. I'm not much of a world traveler, but I once ventured as far as the British Isles and was in antique architecture/gardener paradise!

Carol

mendocino rose

Two Plantiers and no Hardies! That's a lotta one big beautiful alba. Madamemit! :-)

Botzaris was in my RVR order which contained the Madame Plantier/Armide. If Botzaris reveals itself as another imposter white OGR, I may end up with two MPs as well!

Carol

Christopher

Wow! That story rivals Melissa's and tops mine! I'm relieved there was a fairy tale ending awaiting you and Reine des Violettes after all the rose shuffling subsided--rather like mad musical chairs in the horticultural world. I gather you finally received your Zepherine, too, but if not, I could take a cutting of mine and send it to you. I promise that she is neither Madame Plantier nor Comte de Chambord! She's organically grown and no RRD in this neck of the woods...yet. My Zepherine also carries a story with her. She was growing at my last house in Portland. I rooted a cutting and sent it to my mother who lived in a home in North Texas. Liz Druitt and the ARE folks recommend her for that climate. Zeph grew into a substantial lady and brought great joy to my mother as she whiled away the hours birdwatching through her den window. My mother rooted two cuttings and gave one to my sister and sent one back to me in my current house. My Zeph has now grown into quite a substantial lady herself and plays nicely with Penelope on my west fence.

Carol

Paul

How wonderful to correspond with you! I've followed your hard work for a very long time. The results are lovely. Someday your purple decadence of a gallica will find a rookery among my other favorites.

Thank you for clarifying the Armide/Plantier mix-up. I'll wait and watch "Madame Armide" as she matures, and I'll inform RVR if I have the same experience as nastarana.

As long as I have your ear (or eyes), I would like to solicit your opinion regarding Heirloom and Beales. I discovered a past thread of ARF conversation (after I ordered La Ville and posted my garden irony, darn it) where you and others discussed "Errlooms" past La Ville debacles. Yes, it seems that this company continues to sell a HP or Portland Damask as La Ville de Bruxelles. I have the impression that Heirloom's owners have a relationship with Peter Beales, and I noticed that Heirloom's La Ville website photo resembles Beales' La Ville website photo. On both sites, the flowers have open centers, slightly cupped and without that fullness that La Ville, to the best of my knowledge, normally displays. The photo on your website looks like typical La Ville to me, very full rosette which even domes a bit. I'd like to share a theory about Heirloom and its chronic misidentification of La Ville. Perhaps Heirloom's stock came from Beales' stock and since he is a recognized authority, author, and generally famous rose guru, Heirloom is hesitant to question its own stock. In your experience, could someone as learned as Peter Beales grow a false La Ville?

Carol

erasmus

I'm glad others provided good guesses for your tough pink (not La Ville) beauty. I have none, but I will say that I'm obviously in good company on my quest for La Ville. She's rather like the Holy Grail, isn't she? I am beginning to feel as if I'm in a Monty Python skit....

Carol

Oh, and nastarana, yes, definitely leaning toward training her as a skyscraper...I mean climber. I think there's a section of my fence that no one else has devoured yet.

Carol

"I noticed that Heirloom's La Ville website photo resembles Beales' La Ville website photo. On both sites, the flowers have open centers, slightly cupped and without that fullness that La Ville, to the best of my knowledge, normally displays. The photo on your website looks like typical La Ville to me, very full rosette which even domes a bit. I'd like to share a theory about Heirloom and its chronic misidentification of La Ville. Perhaps Heirloom's stock came from Beales' stock and since he is a recognized authority, author, and generally famous rose guru, Heirloom is hesitant to question its own stock. In your experience, could someone as learned as Peter Beales grow a false La Ville? "

Classic Roses/Beales photo:
{{gwi:269700}}

Heirloom's photo:
{{gwi:269701}}

The two photos say it all, IMO: the Beales photo depicts the correct variety, albeit in a rather late stage in its development. IE: the bloom is close to shattering and has gone quite loose. In contrast, the Heirloom rose shows a very different flower style that show both recurving and some quilling of the outer petals, which is not something 'Ville de Bruxelles' does. The Beales rose also shows the significant fading of the outer petals, where the Heirloom roses appears uniformly pigmented from center to the guard petals. All of this tells me that the Beales plant and the Heirloom plant are not the same rose.

So - I very much doubt that what Heirloom/Errloom is still selling under this name ever came from Peter's inventory, but rather, was likely "collected" from some American source, as were many of their OGR cultivars.

Now, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will state this about my experience with Heirloom/Errloom: 10-12 years ago I bought quite a number of roses from the company, of which about 2/3 were OGR types. In all, I would say that close to half of my purchases from them at that time were misidentified/mislabeled roses. In one instance, I purchased 'Mme. Alfred Carriere' and received "Mrs. Herbert Stevens', climbing form. I took the plant back and was given a replacement. Within weeks it was revealed that once again I was given "Mrs. Herbert Stevens', the climbing HT. Third try is the charm, right? Not in this case: "Mrs. Herbert Stevens' again. I gave up. Clearly they were selling the wrong plant under that name.

Now, while I am sure - based on people's reports in the last couple of years - that things have improved at Errloom in this regard, it is obvious that they still peddle some "mystery Portland" as 'Ville de Bruxelles', in spite of abundant evidence that it is a misidentified plant. Make of that what you will.

Regards,
Paul

PortlandMysteryRose (Carol) -- Thank you, but the 'Zephirine Drouhin' was one of many "going-away" gifts I bought and handed out last year. I did get the real thing, and it was planted to eventually grow wrapped around a "dead-tree" pillar-post with a bird house on top. I'm now starting a new garden from scratch, and have more than enough roses for the yard which arrived this year, currently growing-on in pots while their beds get ready for Autumn planting.

:-)

~Christopher

Paul, thank you for your input (and additional information). I'm sure you are right. The two roses actually look quite different when placed side by side. I'll notify Heirloom of the La Ville error and see what transpires. I hope you are enjoying your Mrs. Herbert Stevens farm! :-/

Christopher, I'm looking forward to reading about your new garden progress!

Carol

"I'll notify Heirloom of the La Ville error and see what transpires."

Don't expect too much. They've been informed of this many, many times.

Definitely no expectations, Paul. I not only read the lines of your advice and personal experiences, I read BETWEEN the lines. Thank you again!

Carol

My " La Ville" plant is not tall, only about 2 1/2' so far. I can't say how tall it would be in a better location - I have it in one of my deserts where it has competition from a nearby enormous hedge and other roses. I don't think it's Compte de Chambord because the Compte gets creeping black crud on the leaves here. This one is clean. But thanks for the guess. I don't think it's Gertrude either because I have Gertrude and it is a little different and gets more blackspot and doesn't repeat as often. I bought mine from High Country Roses before they changed ownership. I noticed that they no longer sell La Ville de Bruxelles. I called them earlier this year to talk about this rose and the new owner said he'd have the old owner email me about it but she never did. I told him I'm happy with the plant but would like to know what it is. Here is another picture. It IS like a holy grail! I think I first got interested in this rose seeing pics and descriptions on your site, Paul. That and Belle sans Flatterie, and Desiree Parmentier.
Linda

Linda

Your High Country "La Ville" sure resembles Heirloom's/my "La Ville"! In time, I'll learn the ultimate stature of my plant, but I'm guessing it will be on the shorter side like yours. Quite possibly, it's the same imposter. I grew Gertrude at my last residence. She was much thornier than my "La Ville" and, with pruning, grew to about four feet (not including the crazy canes that shot to the heavens now and again). Maybe we can exchange more photos over time and solve this mystery together.

I have not bailed on my quest for the Holy Grail. I'm circling like a vulture over the RVR site and others in hopes of locating the real deal in stock.

I have another mystery rose that I purchased either from High Country or Forest Farm. Maybe I'll post pics of that one sometime to see if anyone on ARF has an educated guess regarding identity. It looks like some kind of fragrant, modest large-flowered shrubby climber thing with colors like a PNW sunset and TONS of blackspot following the one-time flower show. The plant was labeled as the one I ordered--"Ispahan."

I received my introduction to many lovely OGRs on Paul's site, too. I used to visit so regularly, it was like I was under the influence of some unshakeable horticultural obsessive compulsion. I just could't tear myself away from those incredible photos of so many of the OGRs I craved. Then there are the Paul Barden originals.... Someday, Rook must nest in my backyard.

Let me know if you solve your "La Ville" puzzle!

Carol

This post was edited by PortlandMysteryRose on Sat, May 25, 13 at 17:02

Carol,
If you are still looking for "the real Ville de Bruxelles", then contact me, please. (Email link from my GW account is fine)

Paul

Where did yours come from , Paul? I would like to buy the real thing. Carol, my Gertrude is extremely thorny and very large. The shade of pink is similar and the way the outer petals are paler.

"Where did yours come from , Paul? I would like to buy the real thing."

Pickering, twelve years ago.

@Carol: I was unable to reply to your email, since you apparently have the "reply to email" option turned off. Unfortunately I made an error in my mental catalog: what I believed was an own root division of 'Ville de Bruxelles' turned out to be, in fact, 'Konigen von Danemark', so I can't offer you a plant at this time. (Unless you want 'Konigen von Danemark', which is a superb rose, and in some ways superior to 'Ville de Bruxelles' in my opinion)

Paul

Hortico is offering an 'Armide' which they claim is light pink fading to white. I believe the original 'Armide' was supposed to be pink.

Oh! Thank you so much, nastarana. I'll look into it tonight.

Carol

Carol, do check out the reviews on Hortico, at Dave's Garden and on this forum before committing money you will never see again.

Hortico has two albas of interest to me; if it were any other nursery, my check would have already been on its' way, but Hortico has garnered itself an interesting reputation. I am still thinking it over, and besides I want to see if VG will have a last, final sale in June, and I hear RU usually has a June sale as well.

Nastarana, yes. Good advice. I think, like you, I'll wait to see if sales occur at VG and other nurseries that I (have) frequent(ed). I'm really going to miss VG! Since I seem to have a Madame Plantier who needs a home in my garden, and I'm thinking of moving Felicite Parmentier to the location reserved for Armide, I may just focus my search on The Holy Grail (La Ville)....unless I spot an Armide that really, really seems to be the real deal! La Ville--Pickering has closed its doors for the season, but since that's where Paul purchased his plant, I may bide my time and attempt a fall internet order on September 1 at 12:01 AM.

Thank you for all the information you have passed along. Please don't hesitate to share any gems you track down on your quests!

Carol

Great photo of the LVdB mystery rose, John! It's labeled as Rosa ALBA LVdB?! How interesting...and odd. It grows and looks a lot like a Portland Damask rose, but.... It looks a lot like CdC, but.... The buds on my plant failed to open too frequently, and I finally passed it along after my real deal CdC matured a bit. False LVdB is lovely, remontant and very fragrant and definitely not LVdB! What does this rose look like to you? Carol

When I took the later photos, the plant had no label, and it was grouped with other Portland roses, so I assumed it was Comte de Chambord at the time (not remembering the earlier time I photographed the plant when it still had a label). I've never really grown CdC. That is, I tried growing a grafted plant that withered away to nothing...but it was a body bag rescue to begin with! The earliest reference (according to "The Old Rose Advisor, vol 1" from Brent Dickerson) described CdC as a plant not worth much attention, so perhaps the best varieties are the CdC imposters! Did you find either of your plants to be feeble of growth with bumpy, spiny, dingy green branches and moderately sized flowers of a pale flesh color? That sounds nothing like the CdC I've seen on this site and HMF. People always remark how large the blooms are for the size of the plant, and there's always a strong rosy pink shade to the center petals with outer petals fading to a softer pink (roses with darker centers are my kryptonite, so I've paid attention to this detail). Photos also tend to show a bushy upright growing plant...not "feeble", as described in the early description. These mysteries fascinate me. I'm currently collecting Rose du Roi versions. I have one from Burlington Roses and the "of commerce" version from RVR, and Greenmantle is propagating the Rose du Roi that Marissa collected from France (after deciding the real version did not exist in N. America) as well as Mogador. If I had room, I'd love to do the same with the various CdC versions!

Ah, a kindred spirit in rose history. :-) I love Dickerson's books!

The earlier description of a lame, flesh colored rose is fascinating. My CdCs have all matched the current descriptions and performed well for me in Portland. I wish I'd kept my imposter, though. I passed it along to a friend who loves it. I may order another and grow it to maturity because you've ignited my curiosity again.

I kept my other imposter, the one that was supposed to be Heirloom's CDC but, when it arrived, was actually a mystery rose...a Hybrid Perpetual?...which resembles Jacques Cartier but shoots up to 10 feet and NEVER reblooms. A lovely rose, though.

I'll have to visit Heirloom again and check out the Portland bed. Curiouser and curiouser! Carol

P.S. I'm totally fascinated by the whole Rose du Roi mystery!

The Rose du Roi mystery interests me, too. This reminds me that I used to have one each from Burling and Rogue Valley. They seemed the same to me, though I admit I didn't grow them together very long. So I gave one away, but now I can't remember which one I kept. I hope it still has the tag. Will have to check.

What is your conclusion, John? Are Burling's and Rogue Valley's varieties the same?Vintage had one, a reversion sport, that they considered was probably the original. Too bad they're closed now.

So far I'm happy with whichever RdR I have. We've had a fairly mild spring this year, for us, and the foliage is remaining healthy, and it reblooms for me. Duchess of Portland, on the other hand made a little show about a month ago, but despite putting out new growth, has not made any new buds. It does need a bigger pot, though. That might have something to do with it.

The "Heirloom Ville de Bruxelles" is very likely 'Comte de Chambord'.

Carol or Paul

What about the La Ville de Bruxelles David Austin in TX offers? Real thing or imposter?

http://www.davidaustinroses.com/us/la-ville-de-bruxelles-old-rose

Patty

Patty, that looks like LVdB to me. What do you think, Paul? Carol

Something else to throw into the mystery -- the rose going under the name 'Comte de Chambord' is likely 'Mme Boll', and in some instances, also the same rose sold under the name 'Mme Knorr'. So perhaps those original references were correct -- about the original rose.

I stuck a bunch of pruned pieces of my 'Rose du Roi -- original' from Vintage Gardens in a pot outside in early Spring, giving no other attention. Most are leafing out. John, if you want one, message me. I think it's the real thing, being as it displays that extra sepal mentioned in references, and found among its sports. What I have is definitely a Damask Perpetual, not a Hybrid Perpetual with China blood.

:-)

~Christopher

Carol,

That photo on DA web site you linked to clearly depicts the REAL 'La Ville de Bruxelles', without a doubt. The sepals alone are a dead giveaway.

Bellegallica, I'll have to report back later on Burlington and RVR's versions of Rose du Roi, since I just received the RVR version this spring. The canes and foliage do look different, but the RVR rose is so young, I can't evaluate it properly, yet. The one from Burlington repeated its bloom throughout the hottest parts of the summer (its first year) without any special pruning but did not sacrifice growth for bloom (I was too curious to remove buds).

Christopher makes a good point about the other roses that are mixed up in the CdC mystery. Perhaps that original feeble, flesh colored rose has been replaced by the more attractive and stronger-growing Hybrid Perpetuals. But maybe it still exists, being sold under the names of those very roses that are being sold as CdC ...and each other. This does sound like a mystery worthy of some space in the garden. But I don't think I'll order Heirlooms 8ft tall rose that resembles Jacques Cartier and doesn't rebloom... I'll just go visit Carol, and see it in her garden!

I look forward to reading about your conclusions, John. I'm pretty sure the one I still have is the Rogue Valley version. If you determine they're different, I might have to beg cuttings from the friend I gave Burling's to and try again.

I used to have Rose de Rescht growing next to Rose du Roi, and for the first time I could see what Phillip Robinson meant in his article on the Damask Perpetuals, that Rose de Rescht had smooth leaves and could be considered a Hybrid Perpetual. Rose du Roi's leaves are much more roughly textured than Rescht's, and Recht's are actually quite smooth in comparison.

I'll definitely share what I learn, Bellegallica. In addition to Rose du Roi and Mogador, I have Rose de Rescht on order from Greenmantle, so I'll be able to compare its foliage to the various versions of Rose du Roi that I find. I'm very excited about this little project. Even if I never determine whether I've found the real Rose du Roi, at least I'll have built a small collection of Portland roses or Hybrid Perpetuals with Portland rose characteristics! They have to be my favorite class of roses. Hopefully the other roses weren't listening when I said that...