I garden far away from your zone but my general understanding is that bands are often difficult to raise in areas where there isn't a long warm season. If you did have a band you would want to transplant it into a pot no larger than a 1-gallon pot. Sometimes bands already arrive with some buds or blooms which you would probably want to pinch off in order to promote root and leaf growth (I know, it's hard). Even in my warm climate my band of Pretty Jessica did not bloom much the next summer and even now (the summer after) it's not putting out a lot of blooms. Sophy's Rose, however, bloomed quite a bit the first summer so it very much depends on the rose and how well it likes your climate. I don't want to say much more than that since overwintering roses is something I know nothing about, or for that matter anything more than what I've already said, which would apply to gardens generally.

Ingrid

I, too, garden far away from you. But I can tell you that, with a small own-root rose, the most important thing you are cultivating is ROOTS.

Strong, healthy ROOTS.

In most cases, we pot up from a band to a 1-G. That plant remains in the 1-G until we've got a nice show of roots trying to crawl out the bottom of the 1-G.

Then, we pot up from the 1-G to a 5-G, and repeat the process.

When you have a well-established plant, with roots showing at the bottom of the 5-G, it's ready to go into the ground.

HOWEVER, how long that process takes will vary from one cultivar to another, and from one environment to another. I don't know how you fit that process into your climate and seasons, so you will want to hear from someone in your conditions.

Jeri

If they're bands in 4 inch pots put them into 1 gallon size pots. For 1 gallon size pots it depends on how big the plants are. Sometimes they're no bigger than the bands and should just be left in the gallon pots. Other times they've got good growth already and can go up into a 3 or 5 gallon pot.

As far as growth expectations, it depends on the variety. Some roses are vigorous growers and will put on a lot of growth right away. Others will be slow to grow and may need to stay in the smaller pots for a whole year or more. The weather will also determine if there is a lot of growth or not. If it's cool and gray you'll get less growth than if it's warm and sunny. I have a mini I bought in a 4 inch pot in April. It's two feet tall and wide already. I also have a 1 gallon OGR rose I got the same time that hasn't really grown an inch yet. You just have to watch each one and see what it does. In any event you should be able to tell when they're ready to go into larger pots or the ground.

The usual thing for bands here, is to transplant them first into a 1 gallon pot. If they are going to stay in a pot, they go into a 2 gallon for fall because they overwinter better in larger pots. You do need to *NOW* work on an overwintering strategy.

For me, south of you, own-root Austin's don't grow. I won't waste any more time or money on them because they just don't grow. Grafted are much better, though I haven't had good luck with roses from Austin in Texas. Bucks have also been a source of much failure. right now I have Earth Song and Applejack as the big successes after a lot of tries.

The big, overwhelming, tidal wave of a problem you are going to run into is that most modern roses do better grafted, and the best source of grafted roses for the northeast, Pickering, is currently not allowed to export to the US.

I will also throw out to the general community that when we visited Saratoga battlefield several years ago, multiflora was extremely conspicuous by its absence. It should have been in bloom, and I only saw one plant. The field/woods boundary where it should have been was overwhelmed with shrub honeysuckle.

Drmuffinz, the only "silly question" is the one you already know the answer to. We're all ignorant about everything once, and remain ignorant about many things forever. Fortunately, ignorance is totally curable and nothing to be ashamed of.

As has been stated, the general rule of thumb is use the next can size larger than what the roots are filling now. A band would usually go into a gallon, unless it is an extremely vigorous type which is poking out of all exits of the band. That you would likely pot into a two gallon size. Potting them into too large pots results in loose root balls which often fall apart when you have to repot them. Whether they actually fill the larger can or not, eventually the soil depletes or decomposes and you have to repot to replenish the soil. You'll have a better knit root ball if you always go the next size larger pot instead of skipping several sizes.

The rate of growth you should expect is an "it depends" answer. It will depend upon your climate; the prevailing weather patterns (heat, humidity, sun levels, rain, etc.) as well as your gardening 'style'. If you are out tending them regularly so you can provide the right amount of water at the right time, instead of letting the sprinklers hit them when they go off, you might actually have faster growth from better resources supplied at more efficient times. A lot depends, too, upon the actual rose varieties. If you're planting something extra vigorous and known to grow like oatmeal on a two year old, you may get feet of growth in a few months. If you're planting something which takes its own sweet time, particularly own root, you may get begrudging inches out of the same time. If your weather isn't cooperating and it's too cold, too hot, too rainy, too arid, they may hunker down and just survive, instead of actually maturing. If you're trying to keep them in filtered sun when they should be out in the direct sun, it may stunt their progress. The reverse of keeping them on a too hot surface when they need some heat relief, can also inhibit development.

If your season is short, and the varieties you're considering aren't the fastest to develop own root, perhaps the budded plants may provide you with more dependable plants to begin with. If you've generally had good success with own root, and don't want the potential for root stock suckers, stick with own root for the vigorous types.

Yes, you can frequently hope for some flowering from band sized plants...IF they are types which will flower as small plants. Some demand maturing into large specimen before they will flower. Some once flowering types require wood which has to mature and be "ripened" by the right temperature changes before they will set flower buds. If the band is that type of matured, ripened wood and the weather where you are is appropriate, they may well flower. If not, probably not. Many more modern roses can and will flower as very small plants. If something like the English roses you mentioned flower as small plants, they very likely won't have as many petals nor will they have the large flower size you expect. Remember, bands are "infants", just like your puppy or even your children were at corresponding ages. We too often forget that and expect a piece of material which has only really supported itself for a few weeks or months to support itself and perform as something two years old might. It very often just doesn't work that way. Treat them like infants and they will very often perform as expected. Good luck! Kim

Thank you for all the in-put. I have an overwinter strategy (some are going into the attached garage, the rest into a covered, sheltered porch, where they'll be insulated against a wall shared with the house.

I've heard many people have problems growing own-root Austins in my zone as well, or at least it seems very hit or miss, so I think I'll go with the 3 gallon containers then, though lord knows I'm not that eager to spend the money, at least I won't have to worry about pinching back.

As for the bands, perhaps I'll give a few a try, I live in an apartment and plan to move this winter, so the 1 gallon pots will be much easier to maneuver.

mad_gallica, I am surprised to hear the Bucks aren't working for you. I am around Saratoga and thought the Bucks would do great in our cold winters! Would it be better to start the bands in a 1 gallon and transfer them to a 2 in the fall before overwintering, or just skip straight to 2 gallon?

Thank you so much Kim :) I spent a while googling and searching forums, but it seemed the easiest way to get a clear answer was just to ask for help.

I think I'll get a few more mature roses to satisfy my craving for blooms in addition to my "baby" bands. There is something about raising an old garden rose or a unique breed of rose from a band to maturity that appeals to me...assuming it makes it that far!

Hopefully the weather will cooperate with me, having my roses in pots has been beneficial so far, as I've been able to move them for some violent thunderstorms and cold snaps that we've had.

Now the next crisis will be deciding what potting mix to use for the babies, or whether or not to make my own. I was going to attempt to mix up my own using Hedgerow rose's recipe, but in the end I just didn't have the space and room to deal with so many 40lb bags and just went with Promix. Hopefully that will work with the babies, too.

Bucks aren't really cold weather roses, at least the rebloomers aren't. They were bred to be bounce back roses in a hot summer climate. And that comes from somebody who had this same conversation with Dr. Buck.

Practically anything here that is supposed to bounce back from winter bounces like a flat basketball. The summer heat just isn't there to promote growth. A vigorous understock helps, and can be the difference between a sort of satisfactory rose and a dud.

My current record for getting satisfactory roses from *any* own-root rose that experiences winter die back is zero out of an awful lot.

Of course your conditions are completely different, but I would not skip the 1-G size and go directly to 2-G. OR, I would only do that with the rare HUGE-FOR-A-BAND sort of plant.

You will note that that advice comes from almost everyone.

They will more efficiently develop a strong root system if you let them first fill the 1-G with roots, and then pot up.

Jeri

Thanks, Jeri - I am definitely going to start all the bands in a 1 gallon, and depending on how well they do, perhaps transfer to the 2 gallon in the fall. Likewise, perhaps put the 2 gallons into 3 gallons, and then maybe move them up again at the end of the summer.

mad_gallica, what have you found to be the best roses for your garden? My Austins are grafted, so I have higher hopes they will survive than own-roots - I have little to no hope for the hybrid tea roses I picked up (but at $5 for a 2 gallon pot, I figured why not try). I am on the fence for a floribunda that I have. so far it seems quite vigorous.

Hi DrMuffinz

Welcome to GardenWeb and the variety of input you'll get from all of us! I don't garden in pots, but you've gotten some great advice from folks in cold zones that do.

You'll find that feedback from folks will vary on roses that survive and grow quickly in cold zones, even within the same zone ranking. MadGallica and I are both in zone 5 but I have the opposite reaction to grafted vs. own root plants. I tend to have much more dismal results with my grafted plants surviving both the summers and the winters here in the extremely variable arid Plains of zone 5, and vastly better survival of own-root plants in the ground, particularly my Austins. I planted around 20 grafted roses from David Austin and maybe 4 of them still survive today; in contrast, I think I've only lost one or two of the own-root Austins I planted. That doesn't make either set of feedback correct or incorrect - it depends on the conditions in your yard.

A general rule of thumb is that grafted plants tend to take off a little faster and bloom sooner than own-root plants, though that doesn't actually happen much in my yard for reasons I won't go into here. Still, don't expect full performance for about 2 more years and focus on the plants growing roots. In cold zones it's particularly important to grow healthy roots and foliage before you worry about blooms so that the plants overwinter for you. Patience is a virtue we're all trying to learn as rose gardeners, so join the club!

And don't give up on the hybrid teas till they give up on you. I grow hundreds of them in my yard and they survive fine with protection in zone 5, some without protection. Some absolutely will not survive for me no matter what I do, but you don't know till you try. Rose gardening is a process of trial and error, and at $5 each you have a nice experiment to try and see what process works for you and your yard.

Cynthia

Thanks Cynthia!

I am wondering...is there a difference in hardiness or development between bands and bare root roses? There are so many options!

I'm not familiar at all with the cold, but I noticed that you mentioned RU as a source. Those plants are nice and big 1 gallons :) I love RU, and it's not just because I live relatively near them.

Long Ago Roses has the biggest (sturdiest, if that makes sense) bands of the places I mail-order from. They do get a winter, too (a winter like mine; they are in NC), which I like in a band when I can get it. Their rose list might be nice for a Northerner, I think, from what I recall.

Hardiness depends upon the inherent genetic cold resistance of the particular rose, combined with the condition of the individual plant. If it's a budded plant, you also have to take into consideration the hardiness of the root stock. Yes, you can mitigate that a bit by how deeply you plant the rose, but if your freezes extend deeply enough into the soil it kills the root stock, it doesn't matter how hardy the scion (variety budded to the stock) is. If the only roots the plant has are killed, the plant dies.

Very often, a two year, budded plant is going to be more "mature" than a band. The roots of the budded plant are two years old. The budded plant on them is at least one year old. A band is frequently much younger and smaller. Not always, because it depends upon how recently the particular band was propagated. Sometimes, you may find individual bands which have spent a season or longer at the sending nursery. If the variety isn't as popular as some, or the nursery had many of them and didn't sell them as quickly, the plant you receive may be pretty mature and developed. If it sells quickly and there is a rapid rate of turn over, it may be young, immature and small. That's the luck of the draw. If you buy a Grade 1 budded bare root, it is likely to be larger, more developed and mature than most bands. That doesn't necessarily mean it will be hardier than the band, just older and more mature.

Then, you have to take how the bare root was stored into consideration. If it was held in proper storage and hasn't dried out before you receive it, you should have pretty good chances of success as long as you plant and care for it properly. Just as you have to take into consideration how the band was cared for, shipped and handled prior to receipt. All things considered, I would expect a budded bare root to be easier to bring into growth and held safely over winter. Your mileage will vary. Kim

I have what might be described as an English garden. I tend to think of it more as a small version of a Hudson Valley estate garden. Formally laid out beds with a lot of plants stuffed in. Since it is a perennial garden with roses, instead of a rose garden, I can use a lot of once bloomers. Those are the roses that like it here. Explorers are reliable repeat bloomers, but most everything else is hit or miss. One rose from a class is very good, but it is hard to come up with a second nearly as good. Also, these aren't small roses.

Kim answered your question about hardiness of band vs. own root much more thoroughly than I could. My bottom line is - some rose varieties won't survive whatever I do, but the healthier the plant and especially the root system, the better it survives the winter. Theoretically a grafted plant has a more substantial root system and so will survive better, but it's not really a make or break issue on hardiness of a rose.

The bottom line in hardiness of roses is to pick the type of rose first that works well in your zone, and not worry too much about own root vs. grafted unless you see a pattern developing for you in your yard. A great resource is helpmefind.com, where you can search for all kinds of information about roses including hardiness. Remember, though, that their listings are only as complete as we help them be by contributing information, so some of their zone ratings may be out of date or not apply to you. Most hybrid teas are officially rated zone 7, but that doesn't mean they won't survive for you in zone 5 - you have to ask around or try and see.

In case we forgot to mention too, there's a planting difference among own root vs. grafted that's important for zone 5. Planting grafted roses in the ground, you need to make sure the knobby bit where the blooming canes sprout from is planted around 2-4" below ground level. That means that even if all the canes die down over the winter, the real rose variety you've planted has a chance to come back from underground and grow. That's one of several ways HTs may survive in cold zones like ours, and it's an easy kind of insurance to make toward winter survival. Don't know if you'd do the same for container grown grafted roses, but I think it's probably a good idea to consider if planted. At least you'll need to protect that grafted point in whatever you do to overwinter them in your zone.

Cynthia

Cynthia - I am not sure about burying the graft in a container (besides overwintering) - I'll have to look into this. The roses certainly did not come with the knob buried, and right now I don't have them buried in my container, but maybe I'll do some re-adjusting this weekend.

I'm going to give own root and grafted a shot this winter and see who does best. I'm getting some very developed grafted roots that I'm hoping will pull through. I'm thinking I should order my bands and 1 gallons soon so as to give them the longest possible time to develop roots and to prepare themselves for overwintering.

HMF has been really helpful...(lol, of course!), but I am finding a lot of the roses I look up have the default zone listed, or are listed for a warmer zone officially, but that I know are being successfully grown in my zone or colder ones. I'm guessing that might also be a micro-climate issue - my parents have perennial morning glories and are in a zone 5, likely because they are right against the south side of the house.

Sounds like a good plan, and you're right that you can have micro-climates in your yard that defy your official zone ranking. If you leave your pots unprotected for the winter, the standard wisdom is to pick a rose one zone hardier than yours since you're missing some of the insulation the earth gives when they're planted. If you winter protect the pots, I expect it depends on your methods and I'm not much help there since I'm hopeless at pots.

Feel free to drop a thread asking the GW community about roses you're considering if you want input on hardiness from folks who've grown them in or near your zone. If they're modern varieties, you may get a broader response from the "roses" rather than "antique roses" forum, but many of us frequent both of them anyway.

Cynthia

something to keep in mind when parsing information from here and HMF is that all zone 5s are not created equal.

In general, my zone 5 translates to roughly the 4/5 border in the upper midwest, and zone 4 in the Rockies regarding what can be grown successfully.

After you move to Erie Co., things will get much easier since that is more of a midwestern climate. I have grown roses just south of the Erie snowbelt in Pa, and it was a piece of cake compared to here.

Oh, and for those keeping score at home, DrMuffinz is about as far north from Jim as he was from me.

I am so excited to move to a more amiable climate! I figure if I can get my roses through this winter, I'll be good to go!

I've been speaking to a woman who owns a large David Austin garden and store in our area (actually, even more north than me!) and she suggested burying the roses, pots and all, in the woods and then insulating them with leaves. She has said she has found this method to be more successful than keeping them in the garage because it keeps them more evenly moist. I am intrigued but also a little unsure I want to risk it!

She's a smart lady! The problem with garage or covered porches is that they get no rain or snow all winter and they dry out and die. If you keep yours in the garage and porch like you suggested you will need to water them at least once a month all through the winter. They're dormant, asleep, not dead so they do still need water. The thing I like about the garage is that it protects them from the winds. Dry cold, winds can dessicate the canes and you get more die back. Unfortunately, I don't have a garage, lol! I keep mine outside against the south facing back wall of the house, wrapped in burlap and packed with leaves. Being outside they get snow and rain on them all winter. But we do throw extra snow on them when we can. They've survived very well this way for 7 winters now. The only one I can fit into the shed is the tree rose so that I can better protect the graft at the top. That one gets a shovel full of snow on the top of the pot every time it snows. If it doesn't snow much I pour a gallon of water on it once a month all winter.

Years ago, the Maine growers used to overwinter stock by burying it inside barns. The point being to keep the roses from drowning.

A good share of the point of putting them in the garage is to keep them dry. It's a fairly fundamental climate difference.