I think I know exactly what you mean, greenhaven. We're in zone 5a, and our roses mostly start from scratch every April, except for maybe a few Explorers, which might start with 6 inches of growth.

We have 3 "official" climbers now: Polka, Red Eden and Don Juan. Polka grew to about 7 feet here I think (it's going into its 3rd season, but is own-root).
Red Eden just came yesterday from Roses Unlimited (again, own-root). I wanted to try it so badly that I didn't care if it got very tall. I just wanted to grow it.
Don Juan is waiting to be planted....sitting in one of those cardboard J & P boxes. My husband will get to planting them all this weekend.
I don't know anything about Night Owl...have never had an obelisk or an arbor. Red Eden or Don Juan MIGHT get planted against a split rail fence, just for support. Otherwise, they will all just get a shovel or two of topsoil in October and go to bed for the winter, and then start again next April at about 4 inches tall!
:0) Phyl

Personally, I've never found it satisfactory. Part of it may be my climate. We rarely have an 'average' winter, but instead tend to cycle around two winter lows. Warm winter have lows around zero, cold winter have lows close to -15. So roses get big, and bigger, and then WHAM, they are tiny. Planning the rest of a garden around such a variable just drove me crazy. So I'm trying to work up my nerve to cut Westerland down to about 2 ft because otherwise it will eat the surrounding perennials, and next year or the year after I'll definitely need something for filler.

Of course I'm also happy enough with once bloomers and Explorers that I'm not remotely hurting for climbers. I'm more in the camp of trying desperately to find spots for them all.

Phylrae, so is it likely that Polka will achieve that seven feet every year?

I guess that's what I am wondering. What height can I expect a climber to achieve each year if it dies back quite a bit?

Greenhaven

Of course up in your area it may be different because of the winters, but here in southern coastal VA, yes you can grow a climber as a large shrub. I do it with my Prarire Princess and she is almost 6ft tall. Last year she was almost 8 ft and I pruned her back as a large shrub down to about 3 1/2 ft and she is a-wash with pink blooms all over her.

I have two climbers, Brite Eyes and Aloha, that pretty much are pillar-roses. They have such stiff canes and they just stand straight up on their own and don't need much support. Aloha is cane hardy in Zone 5 and I've only had to prune her hard because of dieback once in 7 years. Brite Eyes is starting her second year and so far isn't on any support, but is about 4-5' tall and is acting like it wants to grow into a tall shrub. I'm interested to see what happens this summer.
-terry

Greenhaven, I'm trying the same thing with Night Owl. I didn't intend it to be a large climber here. I got it last year as an own root fairly large band from Amity Heritage Roses. (Their bands are incredible...they really take right off!) It threw several large canes and was over the top of my 6 ft privacy fence by August and had blooms intermittenly. I never saw a band grow like this. Very vigorous! It died back to a few inches over winter (mild winter) but is coming back fairly strong. I'll see how it does this year.

Great input, folks! Mary, maybe we can stay in contact about how our Night Owl's do.

I would love to plant my Night Owl with my Darlow's Enigma that is coming so that the two colors can intermingle. Is it feasible if I keep them pruned inbounds?

I'm glad you're having some good response to your post, greenhaven. I'm no expert at all....haven't ever grown anything that climbs, except for sweet peas (yet)...LOL, right now I'm trying my first morning glories & moon flowers!

Polka grew to about 7 feet I think last summer....in fact, because it was so much taller than our other roses, we had to keep it cut back somewhat. I don't know if it will keep growing to that height...or if it would go much higher if it was trained onto something (very possible).

:0) Phyl

i'm thinking about trying it with my westerland and autumn sunset - mad gallica does your westerland start out short every year? I was wondering b/c you said it was washing up to eat your perennials and it's what i want to try as a hedge

Westerland pretty much dies back to the snowline every cold year. We've now had two warm years in a row, and it's 3 tall canes.

thanks - i'll put her somewhere else

The only cane hardy "big" rose is a rambler, Baltimore Belle. It survived with 10' canes. Dr. W. van Fleet another rambler is also hardy. Its' sport New Dawn suffers quite a lot of die back.

I have 20 climbers none of which in fact climb. Well one Ilse Krohn Superior has a surviving cane growing over the top of my arbor but it is lonely as the rest of the rose is sparse. Another rose I have, Flammentanz, is supposedly hardy in Sweden but my new one, last year, got eaten by rabbits and is starting over this Spring.

As to growing a climber as a shrub it is entirely feasible as that is basically what I'm doing. But this year I'm experimenting with hard pruning Antique '89 which grew a very big cane in the wrong place so I decided to cut it off and let it become a big shrub.

I get all of my climbers from Northland Rosarium, they are also zone 5. Carol is so very kind and helpful she will help you with your rose selections. My Night Owl did very well on a rebar teepee last year made it to 8 feet. It will die to the ground each winter but is very vigorous and will bounce back each year. Since it well bloom on new wood die back isn't such a problem. Another plus for Night Owl is that it would produce blooming latterals even if a cane didn't get bent. She has many climbers for zone 5 that bloom on new wood and some that do well as large shrubs. I spoke will Palatine about the Kordes climber Aloha( yes their are two climbers named Aloha ) which they say is cane hardy in zone 5, very diease resistant,and should reach the 2nd floor of your house. He also said once established blooms well most of the year. I so can't wait for this rose it's beautiful. Hope this helped. Pat

Pat, and Jim too, helps a lot! I guess I have to get going on a support for Night Owl and Darlow's Enigma. NO is potted and feeling her oats!

If I may add some experience with climbers in zone 4 that are not cane hardy: I have found that year after year of being cut down to the ground does something to climbers. They tend to "give up" sending out long canes. I have five that have been suffering for years here because although I knew they couldn't make it through winter, I loved their blooms: Ilse Krohn Superior, Rosanna, Viking Queen, Dortmund and Harlekin (aka Kiss of Desire.) None of them reach much more than 4' anymore. There are no new long caned basal breaks; they just stopped coming after about 5 years of being cut to the ground each spring.

So, with that in mind, don't be mislead by the thought of nice tall vigorously blooming shrubs - it just might not turn out that way for you.

(BTW, this spring I'm finally digging up these poor tortured roses and sending them off to live somewhere slightly warmer with the warning to their adoptive garden that they may never really totally recover. We'll just have to see.)

I've had Ilse Krohn for over ten years, Coral Dawn & Fourth of July a bit less. F of J was a body bagged rose on Dr. Huey. Climbers start from stubs in my garden each year & it doesn't hurt their productivity. It's the same over much of central Ontario. We just don't expect live canes on roses other than explorers & some OGRs.

annacecilia, that is exactly what I was wondering, if that might happen. Lydia, thanks for the imput.

I feel realistically encouraged to try, with every thought that failure is a very real possibility.

Hi greenhaven!

Is a semi-double climbing rose OK?

What about Nevada? It's a climber with few thorns, white semi-double blooms and light/moderate fragrance. It reblooms a little - a few blooms here and there. The canes are very flexible and winter hardy. When it blooms in the spring, it scents the entire yard in spite of the light fragrance since the bush is covered with blooms. It is disease resistant in my yard. This is an EASY ROSE in my garden.

Polka did not work for me. It died to the ground each winter, and then regrew vicious cat-o-nine-tails canes with a cluster of blooms at the very tips - just in time to be devoured by the Japanese Beetles! Sigh:/ Don Juan, is such a lovely rose, but it also dies to the ground for me each winter. I still have a surviving DJ, which is currently in the process of growing its first long canes that will bloom at the very tips⦠just in time for? Yep! You guessed it - the arrival of the JBs:P Westerland, after a few years, is in the same category as Polka and DJ.

For their faults, I shovel pruned Polka and Compassion (perverse, but true;)

I planted Ilse Krohn Superior a year or two ago. It's doing better that the others so far, and had surviving cane this spring, but they have some visible canker. The bloom is a lovely creamy white with a rich fragrance. I will be watching it next spring to see how it fares through another winter. (I do not do any sort of winter protection.)

Best Wishes!
PoseyPlanter

I am pretty sure I have resolved my climber angst by now, but thank you for posting, PoseyPlanter, especially since you are 5a Illinois! Are you anywhere near rural OGle County, perchance?

Intersting about the cat-o-nine-tails reference. My Night Owl is doing that, and I don't know if it is normal. How do I know? I read about such blooming habits here on the forums previously, but cannot remember exactly what was asked or what the response was. Isn't that helpful?

Cheers,
Green

Hi Green!

We're neighbors, but I'm NE of you in central Lake Co. IL.

Except for Nevada, New Dawn and Kordes Illusion, the climbers that I've planted die to the ground each winter. I'm not familiar with Night Owl:/

My ND died of unknown causes one summer. For awhile, it was amazing! Winter hardy, disease resistant, delightful. It really only bloomed in spring with an occasional flower later (promptly devoured and fouled by JB's). I have no idea what killed it. I'm also not sure that it was not actually Dr. VanFleet since it really did not rebloom after the spring flush. I would have kept if forever anyway, poor thing:/ I planted another which has yet to take off.

Illusion is an almost prefect climbing red rose: free blooming, glossy disease resistant foliage. Just one problem - I detect very little fragrance. I read that it has a strong fragrance. Maybe I have a bad clone or a bad nose? To me, it smells like paper:P

My baby Ilse Krohn Superior opened more blooms today and is quite lovely and delightfully fragrant. Time will tell if it is cane hardy enough to develop any size over time. I can't help but hold my breath and wish.

Buck's Applejack has been a reliable LARGE shrub rose for me. Definitely winter cane hardy! Maybe you could undertake to train it as a climber? I've never tried it, so no guarantees. AJ is has erect canes that easily grow 7' basal breaks when established. AJ is lusciously fragrant with an old rose/clove fragrance. Rarely, I detect a green apple fragrance from the foliage during misty cool weather. The canes on that rose eventually develop the girth of small tree branches! You will need a saw to prune old canes on an established AJ. My favorite rose by far in spite of his burley inclinations, AJ produces delicate buds that when partially opened look like a dainty HT rose. Fully opened, the semi double blooms remind one of a wild rose. Bouquets of AJ get rave reviews due to the juxtaposition of the innocent looking clear pink blooms, perfect foliage and lush fragrance. I have not yet started a guest book, but strangers are emboldened to stop and ask "What is that?" when AJ is in full bloom.

Regards,
PoseyPlanter

Congrats, another successful enabling accomplished! Illusion is now on my wish list...Lake County isn;t too far...maybe we can meet someday! I met dan keil at the rose show in Carpentersville last Saturday. Met Karl Bapst at a rose show in Merrilville, IN the same day!

Hi Green!

I have not yet had the honor of meeting the (In?)Famous Cat-Swinging Karl Bapst! Good for you! I have enjoyed KarlÂs posts ever since I stumbled into GardenWeb in 2002.

I have to laugh that youÂve been enabled toward Illusion. Snort:p Now if I were actually a fit enabler, you would have been smitten with Applejack (my All-Time-If-I-Could-Only-Have-One-Rose-This-Is-It!).

But since youÂre dreaming of Illusion, I will tell you that the current bush that I have is lovely and is from a leftover rooted twig when I gave away the original mother plant. I was so disgusted that the perfect plant did not have a strong fragrance that I dug it up and gave it away but since I always bury the graft union a few inches below the soil, one of the canes had taken root. I saved the own-root cane, which has turned into a healthy, floriferous plant.

I was originally enabled toward Illusion by long time poster Henry Kuska, who prized Illusion for its strengths and encouraged using it in rose breeding.

In the end, I was dis-Illusioned by the roseÂs lack of fragrance. I kept a piece of it, agreeing with Henry that it would be an excellent parent of the dreamt for perfect rose, having all IllusionÂs strengths PLUS a stronger fragrance.

If strong fragrance is not an absolute criterion for a rose, the you will be satisfied with Illusion;) Enjoy!

If you are headed toward Chicago or Milwaukee sometime, send me a note (in advance  IÂm horrible about checking email). I would love to meet you and of course introduce you to Applejack:)

Regards,
PoseyPlanter

hahaha! :p Well, I actually do love Applejack...but (maybe I dreamed that) I read it wasn't hardy enough for this area. Must have read that on HMF! ;o)