Basic newbie questions about River Birches & Northern Red Oaks

14 years ago

Our county is giving every household 2 free 6ft tall trees to plant this spring. I selected a River Birch and a Northern Red Oak. I want to plant one up on a hill benhind our house to provide shade in the summer and one on the side.

Bunch of easy questions (I hope):

1) I see really nice Birch trees that have 3 main trunks coming out of the ground. Is this desireable or do the crotche weaken the tree?

2)In case I have a selection to choose from, would the young tree already have the three trunks or is that something that grows over time?

3)Is there anything else I should look for in the Birch or the Red Oak?

4) I'm thinking that the Birch should go up on the hill because it's so wide and full it will provide a lot of shade. It's also attractive in the winter I think. The other location we'd like to plant a tree is on the side of our house, where we have no windows. The tree would have the house 20 feet to it's west, a smaller maple variety (maybe 25 feet tall) 20 feet to it's north, and a large (20 year old) Sycamore to it's east. I'm guessing the young tree would get mostly full sun from noon until 6:00. Would this be a good location for the oak or is there not enough sun and too little space? If not, any other suggestions for trees that would do good there?

5)Is there a good website that shows the progressive heights and widths of trees over time. ie, how tall and wide they will be at 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

6) Anything else I should know? Do either of these trees drop a lot of junk? The one on the side of the house will be close to a heat pump.

Thanks so much. I've never purchased or planted a tree before!

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Comments (15)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
14 years ago
when you see 3 birches.. its three birches.. i would not want one birch with 3 trunks.. for the reasons you suspect ...

heat pump.. as in your well head???

trees prefer full.. complete sun.. and if you already have a maple and a sycamore nearby ... i am not sure that site really needs another big tree ..

any septic field issues???

if you really dont have space for both.. you might ask if you can get two birch.. to plant a foot or two apart [not right next to each other] .... never hurts to ask ...

ken
Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)
14 years ago
5)Is there a good website that shows the progressive heights and widths of trees over time. ie, how tall and wide they will be at 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

No. I'm working on it, and so is a company in the tree business and a researcher out west; the issue is each species has a different growth rate, habit, zone, etc.. I'll have some good graphics for planning soon (not ready to come off my desk today), hopefully appearing in some trade mags that you can refer to, but that is months away still and just generalized about height and distance for shade and PV obstruction avoidance.

The NRO will provide much more shade than the birch. The birch is more ornamental in value so place it in such a position for aesthetics - if you're lucky it'll live 50-70 years only. The NRO is the shade tree, very large, will live if your lucky 75-150 years. Position the NRO to shade your house.

You will get the stock you get. Unless you being able to drive to the yard and pick up, if so choose straight trunks and stock that hasn't been chopped off on top, not too tight in the pot where you can't squeeze and roots coming out the holes all over the place. The later you go the fewer selections you'll have.

The oak of course drops acorns and some flowers and the birch drops catkins.

Dan
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iforgotitsonevermind
14 years ago
1.) Better for longevity to have a single trunk. River birches are most commonly used for their best ornamental feature which is their flakey bark. So they are grown as multi stemmed trees because the more stems, the more flakey bark. If yours naturally grows as a single stem, then that's what I would personally encourage.

2.) It depends on the source. The thing you dont want are container grown birches that are actually multiple trees growing out of the same container. All the stems should meet at some point.

3.) see #2

4.) Tough to visualize your planting scene and how much space but birches like water. They grow native at the river bottoms and creeksides where I live. A hilltop is more appropriate for an oak.

5.) Google: Ohio S.T.E.P. They have taken photos and observations of street trees over a span of 30 years.

6.) Birches drop a lot of twigs, bark and leaves throughout the growing season, particularly during a dry spell. The catkins can also be messy but you've got a while before you have to deal with those. The twigs and leaves and the grass that dies beneath the tree will be the first things you notice.
Northern red oak get to be very large trees and as you might expect, they have acorns that are quite large. People here have said they can be hazardous if planted next to a sidewalk because it's like walking over some marbles.

What are your other choices?
viche
Original Author
13 years ago
I decided not to plant either the oak or the Birch. I really don't want a lot of debris under the tree. I'm thinking some sort of Maple with nice red or orange autumn color. I'm assuming maples don't drop a lot of junk other than in the fall?

Any recomendations for a Maple that will grow quickly and that will be tall and wide to provide a broad shade area? I'd also like something that looks pretty in the fall. This is for the crest of a hill remember.

Thanks
gardningrandma
13 years ago
Doesn't sound like the ideal situation for a maple. Maples drop a lot of seeds in the spring and for the "crest of a hill" um no. More like for a moist bottomland.

Crest of the hill trees, oaks, beeches, hickories. And they're on the messy side because they eventually drop nuts but aside from that they are very desirable, long lived and oaks will provide the red coloring you want whereas some hickories will provide the orange but most commonly they are intense yellow. Beeches a muted yellow.
The only ones you're probably going to find at nurseries are oaks. Beech and hickory are available from mail order sources and the occasional natives specialty nursery.
Embothrium
13 years ago
Maybe visit a local publicly accessible tree collection (arboretum, botanic garden, nursery display garden, public park with labeled trees...) and look at various kinds there, to get more of a feel for them.

River birch is a bottomland tree, hence "river". If you thought that might be too big for you, red oak is a giant tree when situated where it is able to reach full development.
gardener365
13 years ago
Acer rubrum Embers grows fast and starts off narrow but, matures to a rounded-form. Sort of an ideal candidate for the area to shade your home.

Metasequoia glyptostroboides (Dawn Redwood). Fall color is decent. Nothing to complain about on any of them. I planted a 3 foot tree in 2001 and currently it's around 40 feet tall.

Dax
viche
Original Author
13 years ago
This is uphill from my house (about 50 feet away and level with the second floor of the house), so a monster oak scares me a little. If the thing ever fell, it would crush the house. Somehow a maple seems a little safer. So a Maple won't do well at the top of a hill? The hill levels out where the tree would be. We currently have 2 sweatgums up there and they are doing very well.

Also regarding the oak, I just hate mowing over the nuts that are dropped by the pin oaks in front of our house. They ever seem to go away, get imbedded in the soil and kill off the grass. Wouldn't the seeds from the Maple be easier to deal with?

Also, I thought there were plenty of red maples, like the red maple, sugar maple, autumn glory, etc. If a Maple isn't a really bad idea for the location, I'd just like to know which cultivars are the best as far as speed of growth, shape, color, hardiness, and mess are concerned.

Thanks
gardningrandma
13 years ago
Just about anything will grow where you are.
You shouldn't have trouble growing a red maple there but they perfer moist locations. You might be prefer sugar maple if you are in the western part of the state. In maturity oaks will drop acorns just the same as sweetgums drop spikey nutballs and bald cypress and hickories drop nuts. Will this be a lawn maintenance issue? If you are trying to grow lawn under the trees then yes. By the time the trees reach maturity there will be so much shade you will probably give up on having a nice lawn, keep the areas under the trees mulched or plant some understory plants there and if you must have grass, leave it in the sunny areas.
What are your goals for the planting? Shade? Privacy? Specimen? Woodsey?

There are numerous red maple cultivars. The ones I come across most commonly are october glory which has a reputation for faster growth rate, long lasting late (november) dark red fall foliage and Red sunset, a more intense albeit not as long display. These both have a nice form and are readily available.
Embothrium
13 years ago
What matters to the tree is what the soil is like inside the slope. A section of clay-like soil is still heavy, and sandy still light whether there is a sloping top or not.
whaas_5a
13 years ago
Alot of folks don't like Freeman maples (IMO mainly because they are overused) but check one of those cultivars. They exhibit much better drought tolerance than sugar and red. There are few that have ok fall color and others that have fantastic fall color (like Autumn Fantasy). The majority of the cultivars fit your needs as well.

Dax, what kind of soil do you have? That is insane that your tree grew 4' every year for the last 9 years.

So sad, but the best I get is 2' with freeman maples and birches. Everything else is...well less than that.
arktrees
13 years ago
I got to give another positive for the Autumn Fantasy. We really like ours. It's planted in very clay soil and has grown 3-4' a year with very deep ruby red fall color. It's been in the ground for 2 years and is probable 14' and 3.5" caliper. It has added 1"+ caliper this year.

Arktrees
viche
Original Author
13 years ago
The soil is definitely clay.

I have 2 hopes. First is to have a nice specimen. We don't have any really interesting bright autumn color around us and I love reds and oranges in the fall.

Second is to provide some shade for the grass and house. This patch of yard gets sun from about 10 am to 7pm and it so hot and dry that I have a hard time getting grass to live through the summer. The fact that the hill slopes towards the setting sun seems to intensify the heat. The grass around the sweat gums does beautifully because the shade cast by those trees moves throughout the day offering some relief from the sun. These trees as only about 20 feet wide (40 feet tall), but grass grows right up to their trunks. I guess a huge maple would cast more shade, but I'm assuming it wont be 20 feet wide for a good 10 years? Maybe I should look for a maple that is a little thinner, like the sweat gums? The Autum Fantasy seems narrower.

I definitely hate the darn spike balls. I don't want to have to be raking or picking up/mowing over a lot of tough grass killing debris. Even If I had to mulch around the trunk where the grass was dying out, I don't want junked scattered all over the yard. Those spiky balls can get up to 30 or 40 feet from the sweet gums some how. (any way to battle these btw?)
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
13 years ago
I'm assuming maples don't drop a lot of junk other than in the fall?

===>>> you almost made me cry on that one .. i was laughing so hard .... seed drop in spring.. the dam-ned helicopters ... is a curse worthy of an 8th plague.. not to mention the 8 or 10 billion seedlings ... i suppose it might matter what kind of maple.. but all the generic ones i have dealt with are problematic at best .... maybe if you find a sterile one ....

then you said: This patch of yard gets sun from about 10 am to 7pm and it so hot and dry that I have a hard time getting grass to live through the summer.

again.. based on those i have dealt with ... most maple will not support vigorous grass under them .... and the pic below shows why.. they are extremely shallow rooted ... and in 20 years or so.. you will be bouncing over those roots with the lawn mower ...

it is an understatement to say I HATE MAPLES ... lol.. like most peeps here will testify .. can i have an amen.. lol ... but that is because i garden under trees ... and maples and a few others are the bane of growing just about anything ...

now.. whether or not these things will happen in your lifetime.. is the key ... as most of my problems are from mature trees that were on the property when i moved in .... whether you will be there is 20 to 40 years.. when the real problems start .... well that is for you to answer ...

my fallback.. in the choice of trees... is ALWAYS oak ... once they get going.. they can grow 3 to 5 feet per year... just under what a maple can do .... and frankly.. no matter what tree you opt for.. there will be a downside ... acorns.. helicopters.. fruit.. nuts .... barren soil underneath .. etc .... so it will all come down to simply your best choice... as i doubt you will ever find the 'perfect' tree ...

IMHO ... the key to clay is simply the planting procedure.. allowing them to get established.. and once they do. they are fully capable of putting their roots where they want them ... for the most part ...

good luck
ken

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whaas_5a
13 years ago
Althought I know they can, I've never seen a Freeman maple produce the helicopter seeds.

I have a 15 yr old and it doesn't produce any...nor do the dozen planted along a parkway nearby (My guess is that they around 20).

Its true that its very tough to plant under maples, so if you plan to plant a lawn tree they are great trees for clay soils.

Ken really beats that pic to death doesn't he? Ken, don't you have sandy soil? Thats what I thought, lol.

Basic newbie questions about River Birches & Northern Red Oaks

Comments (15)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

Dan _Staley (5b Sunset 2B AHS 7)

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