I use ethanol blend all the time. Mostly because its cheaper. My JD rider is fairly new so I have not had any problems YET. I don't know anything about how it is bad for my engines. I would love to get some wisdom or experience from you guys. Should I stop using it ASAP?

Some of us do not have a choice of whether to use "ethanoled" gasoline. Some areas of the U.S. now have ONLY ethanol blends, so those folks gonna have to use it regardless.
I have not personally had any problems using the E-10 in my vehicle & OPE.
I recommend that you get on a program of adding Marvel Mystery Oil (or an equivalent upper cylinder lubricant) to the fuel you use in your OPE to help prevent the engine valves from sticking open when the engine is stored between uses.
I also suggest you add gasoline stabilizer to the fuel supply for your OPE as well. Follow the label directions for both products.

I remember in the 'old days' there was the bit about old gas turning into Varnish .. I guess as aromatic hydrocarbons started evaporating. These guys describe a new kind of glue-like, wormy deposit when E-10 ages. They said that your car, because of a fancy fuel system - and the fact it does not sit much - deals with it pretty well, aside from the drop in mileage.

A $200 B&S motor with a rinky-dink carb seems to take a beating. One twin-cylinder I have has a simple diaphragm fuel pump built into the carb: last Fall I spent $100+ on it .. then just this week (with little/no use between) another $120.. Cannot tell exactly if the first money was 'well spent' .. second time, I took it to another service outfit who put a full kit into it.

Jim

Keep us posted on how the Star-tron works out for you. Post back next year and report how it has worked in regard to the issues you just got "cured of".

From my Ariens manual:

CAUTION: Alcohol blended fuels (called gasohol
or using ethanol or methanol) can attract moisture
which leads to separation and formation of acids
during storage. Acidic gas can damage the fuel system
of an engine while in storage. To avoid engine
problems, the fuel system should be emptied before
storage of 30 days or longer. Drain the gas tank,
start the engine and let it run until the fuel lines and
carburetor are empty. Use fresh fuel next season.
See Storage Instructions for additional information.
Never use engine or carburetor cleaner products
in the fuel tank or permanent damage may occur.

So it sounds like keeping fresh fuel is key with 'new gas', yuck that rings of 'new coke' or the dreaded 'new and improved' on any product.

SeaFoam is a good product, but I don't think it claims to fix the ethanol problem, but I started using it.

Buzz_flat: One repair guy said some of the push mowers sold at places like Lowes, Home Despots, etc. ..have a tag that says 'Do not use Ethanol diluted fuel'. (my phrasing..) I suspect like powerwashers that are returned on Mondays, consumers are bringing mowers back saying they're 'defective'.

mownie: I want to find out what the chem is.. It may be something simple that re-packaged along with a 500% markup. If I find out, I will post it.

Jim

Jim,

Probably right about the returns, but some like my push mower have things like primers, that might not stand up to the 'new gas' blend although one would think that would have been worked out by now. Ha ha we (or I) have a phrase around here 'Clearlake Lawnmower' which is usually a half busted string trimmer with about 2" of cord whipping around. Such a lovely sound going on several hours as someone tries to trim the weeds from along a 50' fence with a broken trimmer. In my 10 years here I have only seen one other push mower than mine and a few riders that were trailered in to trim up a few lots.

Found the MSDS sheet on starbrite, "Proprietary Organic Compounds" 95%...

So it is a repackaged snake oil, MMO is probably the same as well as a few others. 99% of the time if I need something I look up the MSDS and can mix my own from solvents on hand for much less than buying the name brand.

LOL used to love the guy I used to work for who tried to sell Slick 50 to every customer with an oil change, even had a dry sump B&S one lung engine but we never disected it to see if it had sealed ball bearings inside.

That fellows Ariens wasn't overfilled, I think that the air pre-filter is oiled from the factory, according to B&S yesterday, hey Buzzards can you confirn this on your new machine? Sea Foam has kept me out of trouble for three years now, I highly recommend it. All of my small engines, both two and four stroke started and ran well this spring, even my '82 Yamaha XT200.

Bush,

Went out and took off the air cleaner, and the pre-filter it is oil coated, less than 2 hours run time so I have to think it's a factory thing, now which factory B&S or Husqvarna is unknown.

This is quite the thread. At first I thought it was going to be about old guys eating falafals. Then I got to the part about worms in the alcohol, found my old bottle of Mezcal and then passed out.

Thanks Buzz_: I should have remembered the MSDS; good thinking .. Here's a little clip from Wikipedia;

"Naphtha is used primarily as feedstock for producing high octane gasoline (via the catalytic reforming process). It is also used in the petrochemical industry for producing olefins in steam crackers and in the chemical industry for solvent (cleaning) applications. Common products made with it include lighter fluid, fuel for camp stoves, and some cleaning solvents."

Thanks again.

Jim

Wheely - I hope you're feeling better.

Must be an area thing, only Ethanol has been available here for probably 10 years, I never take any precautions, whatever gas is left in my 2 cycle or 4 cycle engines in the fall as well as in my gas can is still there in the spring and the only time I ever had any problem was when I got concerned from reading posts and used some Sta-bil which unfortunately was out of date and I didn't realize it. That sure messed things up.

Walt Conner

- overall gas quality went way down 6-7 years ago. This is not ethanol related. It does start going bad in 30-days. It loses a lot of volitivity and causes hard starting.

- 10% ethanol blends are 25 yrs old in the midwest. No issues there. Problem is that sometimes the blend can go over 10%. If so, carb and fuel components start failing and other performance issues arise. I've seen fuel test at 14%.

- "marginal" machines may start having issues they never did before due to the ethanol - such as vapor locking. A 20yr old mower in Mississippi that ran great on 95-degree days on straight gas may now have issues with the ethanol-blend, as alcohol goes to a vapor faster.

- no gasoline sold is made for small engines. It's all "automotive fuel". Check it out.

Oh yeah, I like SeaFoam, but I understand the Stay-Bil "Marine Formula" is excellent. It is aimed at the boat folks, who have more engine issues than we do. It's supposed to help with the bad parts of ethanol. Haven't tried it yet. Find it at some Lowe's and boat shops.

Walt, 10% ethanol is it in MA. I use Stabil very sparingly from a pint jug that is at least 4 yrs old. I mix a 2 gallon jug of rich 32 :1 at a time. Back when my only 2 stroke was my Farmboss this could take 2 and a half yrs. The saw didnt like it much. It really perked up with fresh fuel. I dose each fillup with a cap full of MMO. I also add a good shot of B 12 Chem tool on occasion too. My carb troubles have pretty much disappeared. I fix my own stuff. I wouldn't waste a shop's time with my old junk. Besides, I like playing with small engines.

"I use Stabil very sparingly from a pint jug that is at least 4 yrs old. "

After I had trouble, I looked on the Stabil can and it said shelf life(?) 2 years or less. I did not know that until, as I said above, I was coward into using Stabil because of posts read on these lists about fuel problems. After the second engine stopped cold, I found the trouble. Had to flush all gas tanks and carbs,dispose of rest of treated gas. No problems since and I have gone back to doing absolutely nothing about gas storage, age of gas.

Walt Conner

I use LUCAS upper cylinder lube and it seems to work , I also use it in all my other engines mixing 5 gallons at a time. As far as corn in gas being in the oil bus. for 30 years NO.I do think even 10 percent will shorten the life of a engine , one thing good was taking MTBE out of fuel it was nasty stuff, what did that do to engines?

"one thing good was taking MTBE out of fuel it was nasty stuff, what did that do to engines?" about 10% reduction in milage from what I recall when added to 'winter blend'.

"one thing good was taking MTBE out of fuel it was nasty stuff, what did that do to engines?" about 10% reduction in milage from what I recall when added to 'winter blend'.

Seems like a lot of echoes on the forum lately.

Seems like a lot of echoes on the forum lately.

What does the e-85 fuel do to fuel economy when people use it in their GM ? Gasoline should be wholesome why put all this junk in it? I do think lead was another bad thing , the ford models were the first I do believe to use unleaded everyone knocked their plugs out to use regular .
hey MOWNIE,whats shakin man?

For one, it eats up rubber components. My Ford van gas filler and vent hoses were replaced 4 years ago with Ford replacements. After 4 years of fueling, about 20,000 miles, I was leaving a 4' diameter puddle of fuel under the van at every fill-up. I thought it was the gas tank, but it was my cracked and dried out hoses. I left it go in the beginning, but after 6 months, I couldn't delay the fix anymore.

I use to change the fuel filters evey 2 weeks at the garage. When I cut em open the junk was awful , I never would fill my car when a tanker is filling a station. The hoses should last much longer than 2 years, who knows what else in in there. When they tell you our gas has no water well you figure out the rest, it matters how much is in there. water can get in to storage tanks , what do you think that does to an engine? gasoline has a shelf life .

Regarding "when they took the lead out".......
What did Amoco have to replace lead in their unleaded "white gas"?
It was always touted as "better for engines" and I can't remember ever hearing someone blame on or attribute to the use of the Amoco premium unleaded for valve seat destruction (something that happened right away when lead was dropped from everybody else's formulae).

People used that stuff in lanterns Mownie, we handled it for years. Once unleaded fuel came out a whole bunch of additives came along , one was Istead of lead , maybe spelling wrong we could not keep it in stock .

Wow, not a chemist but just how do you put lead in gasoline, it was actualy tetra-ethyl lead added. Both TEL and MTBE are octain boosting agents. No matter what any gas is going to loose something if stored too long.

yup remember going to the Amoco station every July to get a couple gallon of white gas for the coleman stove and lantern. Think the reason it was called 'white gas' was it didn't have any dye in it like Sunoco Blue or Esso Red but it was advertised as unleaded way before unleaded became the law of the land.

My goodness I am begining to think there were other brands of unleaded back then too, when I worked at a Phillips 66 in 1972 many customers said fill it up with 'Ethyl' AKA Hi-test. Perhaps some historians here can unravel the mystery of gasoline.

Well, "ethyl gas" was certainly not unleaded because the "ethyl" was short form for tetra-ethyl lead. And everybody had Ethyl, not just Phillips 66. The TEL actually coated the valves and provided some cushioning effect for the valve margins and valve seats. When TEL was mandated out of the formulae, all heck broke loose.
So, back to my question......What the heck did Amoco know that everybody else did not know before America went "leadless"?

The new gas is not the problem in the sense that when it is fresh "It's Bad" thought.

Like the MTBE fuel it has a shelflife only with a twist. It absorbs water because of the ethonal. Here in the South we are very humid and moisture in the air in contact with the fuel is absorbed. Also if a station has a poor tank cap or doesn't sell much fuel the sweating or water that leaks into the ground tank is absorbed into the fuel.

The ethanol and fuel seperate at about 0.5% by my understanding. This phase seperation is when bad things start happening. You don't want that, thats when the acids and all start doing the bad stuff.

Also, "Read" the labels of any fuel treatment you buy. DO NOT add a alcohol type additive to your already 10% fuel, you will go over the recommended percentage amount for the application and can cause serious damage.

I am no chemist, I have tried the Star Tron, like it and sell it now in my shop.

StarTron's, starbrite website has a lot of good info on what happens to stored Ethanol fuel, they developed this product for the boating industry.

My first experience with varnish ,about 10 years ago was really bad. Helped my son do a valve job on his Bronco,that had been sitting up for a least a year. Replaced the heads and it ran fine,the next day,we couldn't start it and after a few hours figured it had lost compression in the first 2 cylinders we check.We removed the valve covers and found the valves were stuck and not moving. Removed the heads and the varnish buildup on the valve stems was so bad,we had to use hammer to remove them.(also had bent 2 valves) Took a while to clean the varnish off the valve stems. The gas tank smelled weird,like paint varnish,so we pulled the tank and it has an 1/2 inch of a substance which look and acted like black tar in the bottom. He had 2 extra gas filters on it but the varnish went thru them like they weren't there. That was my first experience with the new gas,so ever since then I have used gas stabilizer for all my engines that sit up more than a few months. I never drain my gas from the engines,but put stabilizer in them and run the engine to make sure the carb has the stabilized gas. This so far has worked well for me using the. stabilizer.

Mownie, I'm not sure, I could be wrong, but this just sounds like ad campaign weasel words to me. No hard data there. Something's missing in your premise that it's "better for engines":

"It was always touted as "better for engines" and I can't remember ever hearing someone blame on or attribute to the use of the Amoco premium unleaded for valve seat destruction (something that happened right away when lead was dropped from everybody else's formulae)."

Remember when, was it Exxon, that had a guy in a white lab coat holding a glass beaker filled with a liquid, touting that their gasoline contained M2pG? Even the gas pump read..."Contains M2pG." Then of course we all come to find out later it just meant "More Miles Per Gallon"? What a load!! And then of course if you bought Conoco you put a Tiger in your Tank, and it suggested you would have a tiger tail hanging out of you fill cap. Of course nobody really believed that....I don't think.

As far as I've ever heard, TEL is the only additive that helped to cushion the valve against the seat. And after the seats were made from new hardened material, it was no longer an issue, except maybe the valve sticking issue.

Throughout the history of gasoline every company had a 'hook' as mentioned above, this has been a interesting read however.

Mownie, no idea why Ammco kept their unleaded fuel, I am wondering if it was because back then (1960's) their were still a lot of old cars still running that didn't need TEL at all or the higher octain fuel. Looking around I fell on a description of the model T ford, heck it ran on Gasoline, Kerosene or Ethinol but of course you could adjust the timing for speed and load.

LOL I even have run an old Jacobson 2 stroke on alchohol and oil, and a old Brigs motor on alchohol just for fun. Why I did that I can't remember it was 40 some years ago, think it was because I could.

It will forever be a mystery how Sunoco had one pump and a lever on the side to adjust the fuel blends. Never really noticed six different tanks at a Sunoco station.

Water contamination has been a plague for ever, when I worked at the Philips 66 we had to stick the tanks every day and record the levels, also had some tube of stuff to wipe on the end of the stick that would turn bright green when it contacted water in the bottom of the tanks. Still one of the reasons if I see a tanker dropping fuel I drive on by and fill up someplace else, their is always water in the underground tanks and it gets stirred up when the tanks are filled. Same reason we used to add dry-gas ethinol by the pint can in winter to keep from freezing the fuel lines.

I think the answer is to keep the fuel fresh i.e. only buy what your going to use in a month or so, keep it in an airtight container not something with an open spout, add your favorite flavor of stabiliser, MMO etc as needed and don't just park and forget the engine for 6 months. I make it a regular thing to keep starting my Honda Generator so when I need it it's going to work.

Now if we could just get back to the days where a smiling attendant checked your oil, washed your windscreen and checked your tire pressure while filling your tank with $.31.9 premium fuel, gave you a free 'libby' glass or piece of cuttlery... Ah well those days are behind us.

Nah, we have a family-run Sunoco station in town that charges about 10 cents per gallon more, but they give you the same service as years gone by.

I remember reading the car magazines back in the '60's and '70's and they all talked about getting / needing Sunoco +105 (I think that was the octane number) for the newer ultra-high compression engined autos. We never had Sunoco in CO that I know of so we were pretty jealous. People with High compression engines here, back then, had to go to the airport for Av-gas to get that kind of octane number.

Istill like STABIL I have a pressure washer and use it 2 times a year , I drain it before I use it each year and put in fresh gas. I double the stable in it. That goo is greenish white and turns red when water is present.

Conoco did not have the "Tiger in your tank" campaign. Exxon had the Tiger thing going on. I don't remember who had the M2PG campaign.
And while I posted that the Amoco "white gas" was touted as being better for engines...........I never said it was MY premise, I was merely repeating some of the ballyhoo I was exposed to in my youth. :^)

I haven't seen an Amoco station around here for a good 15-20 years, but I got about 10% better mileage by using it.

Looked it up....American Oil Co. = M2Pg (1963 Ad in Life Magazine) not that it really matters.

And to your question..."So, back to my question......What the heck did Amoco know that everybody else did not know before America went "leadless"?

What I'm saying is, did they really know anything as you suggest they did? Or was it just Ad campaign hyperbole as I suggest?

Doberman says, "People used that stuff (white gas) in lanterns Mownie, we handled it for years."

And then Buzzard Flats says: "yup remember going to the Amoco station every July to get a couple gallon of white gas for the coleman stove and lantern. Think the reason it was called 'white gas' was it didn't have any dye in it like Sunoco Blue or Esso Red but it was advertised as unleaded way before unleaded became the law of the land."

So my question to you is...if "white gas" was only used for such items as stoves and lanterns as doberman and Buzzard suggest, why do you relate it to gas engines? I'm missing something here, just asking..

"...if "white gas" was only used for such items as stoves and lanterns as doberman and Buzzard suggest, why do you relate it to gas engines?"

Left out gasoline cloths irons, gasoline lights in Churches and public buildings, probably more. Never heard of using it in automobiles.

Walt Conner

"White gas" was just one of those nicknames that products end up getting tagged with in popular speech. It was white because it lacked the TEL that all the other brands put in.
It was not used "just for stoves and lanterns". It was a genuine, premium grade or "high test" motor fuel, but it was benign enough to be used in Coleman lanterns and stoves because it did not damage or clog the "vapor generators" of these appliances with deposits of tetra-ethyl lead.
The lanterns and stoves do not burn the their fuel directly from the liquid state (except for a brief moment when first starting up). As soon as you get one of the appliances "fired up", the flame begins to heat a "vapor generator" which feeds rarified gasoline vapors to the burner assembly where carburation takes place to entrain air (with oxygen) into the fuel stream, Result.....blue hot flame, no smoke.

I was probably 10 or 11 when we handled it , have to ask my dad what else people bought it for. Mownie thank you for the explaning it. It dried up about when no lead came out . go figure.

Don't think I suggested Amoco-Gas was only used in gas appliances but it was cheaper than buying a can of pre packed stove fuel. If it was not used in cars it sure would have been stale by the time anyone bought it for a camp stove. We just happened to have a Amoco a couple blocks from home so my dad would fill the gallon can before we left on vacation only times I recall buying stove fuel was when we went to Canada and ran out of Amoco territory.

From wikipedia:
"While most oil companies were switching to leaded gasolines en masse during the mid-to-late 1920s, American Oil chose to continue marketing its premium-grade "Amoco-Gas" (later Amoco Super-Premium) as a lead-free gasoline by using aromatics rather than tetraethyl lead to increase octane levels, decades before the environmental movement of the early 1970s led to more stringent auto emission controls which ultimately mandated the universal phase out of leaded gasoline. The "Amoco" lead-free gasoline was sold at American's stations in the eastern and southern U.S. alongside American Regular gasoline, which was a leaded fuel. Lead-free Amoco was introduced in the Indiana Standard marketing area in 1970.[4] The Red Crown Regular and White Crown Premium gasolines marketed by parent company Standard Oil (Indiana) in its prime marketing area in the Midwest before 1961 also contained lead."

I think the explanation if their is one was cleaner burning and less lead deposits on pistons, valves and plugs.

I think ESSO had the tiger in your tank shortly before they changed the name to Exxon

I had a heckuva time this winter down in FLA with my Briggs gen on my truck. It was rainy and humid and the fuel sucked up water like a sponge. You could set out a fresh cup of gas and in a few minutes it would have globs of H2O separated out at the bottom.

Here in TN you cain't find a pump without the "may contain..." sticker on it.
----------------------------

I loved getting gas at ARCO and getting the Disney collectibles as kid in the early 70s in Penna.

I've followed this since the original post, but has anybody come up with a definitive answer as to what product to use as a cure?

I'm trying Sea Foam, but maybe that's not the right choice.

The day of washing windshields ,checking tires,dino blowups and dino soap, are gone . You can thank self service for that. Once it came along the 2 or 3 cent savings people ate it up , but they returned to full serve to check their tires - at no cost.Service station is now a C store.

The solution? Stop by your local small airport and buy some LL100 av-gas.Keeps a long time,any condensed water separates cleanly and there's enough octane for everybody.Drawbacks,lead fouling on plugs,price(less than $4),and availability.Also, your Federal government mandates ethanol in auto gas. White gas was used in some older marine engines and was available in marinas,maybe it still is.

I remember seeing white gas pumps at the local marina. Leaded gas went away about 1990 in MA. A year later my 66 Valiant had 2 burnt exhaust valves.

Sta-Bil also makes a "Marine" grade, which is a greenish blue color. It is the recommended stabilizer for E10 now.