latest HOA stupidity - cut down the trees to save the grass

16 years ago

Here's the latest from my brilliant HOA (my townhouse neighbor is the Pres, who actually is a nice guy):

Y'know my nice woodlands behind my townhouse, which borders a farm & gives us a nice, secluded, non-dev-cookie-cutter feeling?

Well, my neighbor can't get grass to grow on his backyard lawn (it's about a 5' x 10' section off his deck) & so he's blaming the trees & the HOA is (tonight) considering a contract to cut down all trees going 10 feet back from the current grass line (running the whole length of the woodlands - not just the 10' section behind this guy's house). Now the wooded area is only about 30' deep as it is. Oh yeah, and he's sick & tired of all those deer walking through the woodland - they're eating all of the undergrowth.

What's with people? The deer (and the bear) are part of why I like NW NJ. And aren't our priorities a little backward when we're cutting down trees for the sake of a few blades of a plant that just is not a good fit for every yard for every house? Could we not, say,plant an appropriately-shade-tolerant ground cover, like pachysandra, or vinca?

And, why are we blaming the trees? Yes, they do create shade - but the reason they're cutting back 10' of trees (instead of just the 3 trees butting up on his prop) is that they think all of our lawns need more sun back there. Could the less than pristine lawn situation be due to:

1. the huge lawn tractors on that little speck of lawn having completely compacted that soil (which receives huge water run-off) - and them never aerating the soil?

2. the landscaping contractor never nourishing/feeding that soil?

3. the pitch of the land creates a huge soggy water runoff - and with the compacted land, with no nutrition (forget compost), it all creates a very anti-grass friendly environment

4. the fact that the sun doesn't clear the peak of the house until 2 pm?

AND BTW, that would also mean that dozens of HOA people will be in my backyard - and they'll see IT. [And btw a 600# black bear is roaming around, so making a nice discreet pile of veggies scraps under carboard & mulch isn't a good idea.]

AND THEN FOR THE KICKER - I ran into him on my way back from the garden store - buying perennials for the bed (created by a boulder wall, bed is about 3' deep - between the "lawn" and the "woodlands") that I transformed last summer/fall from a complete barren wasteland of a few sparse weeds and ugly dust to a beautiful, well cared for, mulched flower bed. Now, mind you, the original shrubs planted in that "bed" died many years ago - and the "landscaping contractor" never touched it - before or after the shrubs died.

SO HE SAYS - "hey you better watch out what you're doing back here (w/those plants) b/c the HOA will give you a hard time if those perennials aren't on the approved perennial list."

WHERE do these people come from? They're completely okay w/getting "off the hook" for 9 years of doing nothing for that ugly bed, and now, after I put time, energy, effort & $$ into it and it looks beautiful, they want to tell me that certain perennials aren't ok???!!!! What is it about American culture these days that is all about rewarding entitlement mentality (as in, if I had complained & moaned to them for the last 9 years about their lack of work, they would have probably done something), and penalizing productivity & personal responsibility (as in, the HOA has more important priorities than the small bed of former bushes, I'll just fix it and take care of it myself)????!!

I'm sending "PJ's neighbor" after them - and then we'll probably move to a non-HOA home in the same area in 1-2 years.

And then, the good "PJ" people of this HOA can have their overly-highly-valued GRASS (one of the most boring plants known to man) which will still not look the way they want it to for all sorts of reasons that the Soil Forum folk already know about!

All the Best,

Theresa

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Comments (13)

sylviatexas1
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
That's bad enough I think I'd try to block them legally.

When you sell, the woods & gardens will/would enhance your property value.

I wish you the best.
tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
You might want to try your local news media. Approach them from the angle that with global warming we're going to need all the trees we can get. They might surprise you.

tj
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The solution is kindergarten simple. Here's some facts though to ease your mind. Every square foot of sunlight carries almost 100 watts of heat. It's really about 88 watts but say 100. We'll subtract 12% (100-88) later. So imagine you have windows 24" x 36" . That's about 6 sq feet. And they can let in 100 watts per sq foot. how many watts of power = 600 watts. Here's where that makes sense: An electric floor heater is about 1500 watts. So imagine in the Summer turning on a floor heater and leaving it on for 1/2 hour then turn it off for 1/2 hour all during the day. That's about how much heat can come through that one window. Will putting something to keep heat out help. --- Next on the roof. Insulation doesn't keep heat in or out. Is slows down how long it takes to come. So it's going to come in no matter what unless. You block it. Imagine your roof is 20 feet x 40 feet and you have a 2 story house. That's a 1600 sq foot house. 800 on the top floor = 20 x 40 and 800 on the bottom. that's no matter. So 100 watts x 800 = 80,000 watts of heat It's going to get through. So will it help to shade it? Let's be real. If only 1/10th of that heat gets into the house that's still the same as 5 x 1500 watts of heat on all day in Summer. Would you turn on a heater in those examples above. Then don't let the heat come in How to do it cheap. Anything on the windows help. Foil is ok. it will last for years if you fit it to the window first and then glue it down on cardboard. Then you can place it into the window. Maybe even make it so it flips down , etc , for the view. Roof. Painting the roof white helps a lot compared to black roofs. Is the cost worth it? It's probably not compared to other choices like planting tress but a. Tress can ruin a roof. Chinese elm puts tiny leaves which keep water on a roof no matter what. That rots and so some tress avoid. b. Trees take time to grow but you can buy them 'fully' grown. And install them fully grown. b2) Palm ? They're not going to shade much but you just calculate what they'll shade , the cost, the cost per sq ft of shading and pick the tree with the lowest cost per sq foot of shading. c. Other roofing choices. Foam roofing is not hard to do yourself. You must read up on it. Practice. Then you can do it yourself. Pull a permit from the city. The equipment used is $15,000. You can sell it again for probably the same price if you clean it. That cleaning IS a part of reading how to maintain it. Cost for 2000 sq foot roof in materials is about $3000 for everything. Foam and the white latex coating that's reapplied every 10-15 years. As long as it's reapplied the foam should last a 'lifetime' (50 to 200 years) Without reading any of the posts there's are other ideas probably. Have a flat roof? here's an idea. Put up trees on the roof. Be sure to have a registered architect or structural engineer. But you could have a garden on the roof shading within a few weeks. put a lot of trees in containers and you could make some money selling them as they got too big. And birds lvoe it if there's grass and wild plants. it's a real viable 'way to do business' now a days in old and new construction. KEYWORDS To search Coolroofs Green roofs Attic insulation. It's easy and cheap. If you can put it under the actual roof rather than on top of the attic 'floor' it will do more for the amount. In fact that under the actual roof is an ideal place to practice when you buy the foam machine. Again you must read and study before you do it. But it really is 'stupid simple' You can foam the under roof for $2000 and put an r-8 or r-12 where it will do a lot of good. Cost is about $1500 for 2000 sq feet. You can't rent the foam equipment from my research but buying it is not a bad choice. 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trancegemini_wa
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I am just stunned at this. we dont have HOA's over here so this would never happen, but I do have an annoying neighbour on the other side of the street who keeps yelling and flailing her arms at me to cut down a beautiful huge eucalyptus because some leaves blow onto her pristine lawn. when are people going to get over their obsession with the perfect lawn?

If it were me I would fight it in any way I can treeinj, it is so wrong on so many levels what your neighbour is trying to do. It also amazes me when people have this attitude that everyone else should fit in with their wishes, as if their right to a lawn is more important than your right to those trees.

I am so glad we dont have those HOAs I read about at these forums, what a huge PITA they must be
annpat
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Well there's goes my solution to your secret compost pile. I was going to suggest that you paint a trompe l'oi forest on your bin, but now I see that that wouldn't work.

I live in the country here, on a lake, and a neighbor once commented on my unmown lawn and unkempt yard. I told him that he missed a crucial distinction between his yard and my yard---that being that what took place in my yard was none of his business. I don't think I'd do well with a homeowners association.

It kills me to hear my other lake dwelling neighbors praise that neighbor's pristine lawn and I always feel like telling them to go down and put their feet into the muck around his dock and consider why he has 8" of scum in front of his camp and I don't. I made up a t-shirt once that reads "Lawn Fertilizer" on the front and "Pond Scum" on the back, but I'm too embarrassed to wear it.

Anyway, I feel your pain and hope you prevail. I agree with those who think you need to go to the mat with this issue.
billinpa
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Gotta love HOA's. I bought my house with one stipulation. not HOA's they are total crap for the most part. I argee with the underlying principal of them to keep the hood nice but most take it to the extreme.

My FIL lives in one. After his new fence was approved. They came out and measured it. It was 6 ft 2 in some places. It only supposed to be 6 ft high. What an ordeal he went through.

Not for me. I moved to the country.

Good luck with your situation.
squonnk
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Maybe I'm a nut-bar but I have this crazy idea that if you enjoy the benefits of an HOA then you shouldn't have a problem following the rules of the HOA.
I couldn't and wouldn't live like that so I've chosen not to purchase a home that is part of an HOA.
I'll stop my lunatic babbling now.
davidandkasie
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
this insanity is EXACTLY why i would not live in any HOA. if you want to control how others lawns look, move into an apartment complex tha thas rules set forth and that THEY maintain the lawn.

never had an HOA, and NEVER will.
jmsimpson9
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
as if their right to a lawn is more important than your right to those trees.

Actually on their property, it is. She has just as much right to enjoy her lawn without your leaves as you do to have your tree.

Legally (in CA at least) if your trees shed leaves onto someone elses lawn (pool, whatever) they can sue you for the costs to clean it up.

Same with roots, if they encroach on someone elses property and cause a problem, the tree owner is liable.

Been here. Done this one.
arjo_reich
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I can't even bear to read the entire post, I can already feel my blood pressure rising because of it. Apparently, in my old age the little bit of irish in my blood has decided to surface and my normally cool, calm demeanor has been replaced with the uncontrollable urge to punch someone in the face hard enough to break the back of their skull.

OK, I'm exaggerating to the 'th degree but I sure as hell would be stomping around in a fit of frustration over something like that.

The only advice I could offer - from my father-in-lawn, legal guru and professional troublemaker - would be to threaten to sue the HOA if they attempted to remove any of the trees that were legally on your property. You may have signed away and waived your right to modify your property however you see fit but most times, under most HOA contracts, you do *not* forfeit your right to refuse to modify your existing property in a way that suits them.

IOW, they may control which color your paint your house when you choose to paint your house but they do not control when you paint your house should they decided everyone in the neighborhood is going to paint their house a different color.

Of course, your backyard may look a little retarded with the only copse of trees standing out an extra 30' than everyone elses but that's the nature of my father-in-law's advice... vindictive but not always practical. ;-p
whip1 Zone 5 NE Ohio
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I agree with Squonnk. if you don't want a HOA telling what to do, don't buy a home that has one.
treeinnj
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Squonnk & whip1 - I am of like mind - I am very big into personal responsibility - which makes me a very odd attorney - & probably the reason why I don't do personal injury work. I knew when I signed up that there would be rules - and I do enjoy many many benefits of a HOA - which has a little to do w/snow removal & the pool & stuff, and more to do w/close-by great neighbors who are always watching out for each other's homes, etc. So, I am completely ok w/being responsible for my decision to buy into a HOA & for the negatives that go with it.

My posting was really more of a vent than a "blame game" sort of thing.

And, I usually need to vent a little before I come up w/my desired solution - which was to calmly tell my neighbor - the HOA Pres - which I did today - that if it were up to me, I would keep the trees & I would solve his "grass" problem by - installing a retaining wall to level the grade, keep the mega lawn mower off that small area to stop the compaction, and plant shade-friendly stuff.

He said his wife agreed w/me :)

I felt sooo much better after I talked to him - but I'm also glad I didn't talk to him right away b/c the litigator in me would have ripped his head off.

He then told me that the HOA committee is in such a confused state that they can't even decide whether to spend $600 in annuals for the front area - sooo, that left me feeling that it was unlikely that they would get their act together any time soon to make a major tree removal, wall installation, and extensive shrubbery installation decision.

BTW, when I noted all of the reasons why to do it my way, he said that one reason he wanted the extra 2 hrs of sunlight (4 - 6 pm) was to "dry out" the grass that IS backc there b/c it gets so waterlogged everytime it rains.

First, it would be good if they turned off the automatic sprinklers back there.

Second, he completely doesn't understand what I now know THANKS TO THE SOIL FORUM - that poor drainage has nothing to do with the sun and EVERYTHING to do with the SOIL.

I feel so blessed to have been introduced to you guys! Thanks!

All the Best,
Tree
trancegemini_wa
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"Actually on their property, it is. She has just as much right to enjoy her lawn without your leaves as you do to have your tree."

she can enjoy her lawn, that's what rakes are for ;)
I'm not telling her to remove her lawn, just as she has no right to demand I remove the tree.

trees do more than shed leaves. this particular tree is about 60 years old and is one of the few trees around tall enough for the endangered black cockatoos to make use of for food and as a resting site. It also provides my other neighbour directly across the street with much needed shade on our hot summer afternoons. why should I lose the tree, my other neighbour lose that shade and the black cockatoos lose that needed tree just so she doesnt have to rake. we're not talking a lot of leaves here, this is not a deciduous tree.

anyone who sues someone for leaves blowing on their lawn has completely lost the plot IMO.
Redthistle
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Sounds like your problem has been resolved in part. (Yaaa!) You also sound a bit like me.--When I'm frustrated/miffed, I tend to speak from emotion rather than let myself cool down first.

I respect the right for someone to choose a neighborhood with an active HOA. I also realize HOA's were set up primarily to ensure neighborhood property values are not impacted by one or two "bad" homeowners, but the amount of freedom one must give up is too much for me.

My officemate lives in an HOA, and she likes it. I'm okay with that. However, when I've casually discussed being happy in my non-HOA neighborhood with yet another co-worker who feels the same as I do, the HOA officemate was royally offended. It wasn't okay for us to say we didn't like HOA's. It wasn't okay for us to say that while we probably wouldn't be thrilled to have one of our neighbors paint their home purple, we would still defend their right to do it or for them to have a non-burmuda grass lawn or to fly their flag.

What I'm trying to say is that, at least for my HOA co-worker, it's a control issue. When she isn't in control, she's not happy. Since I'm pretty laid back, it's not an issue for me.

Despite no HOA, the property values in my neighborhood remain high and few people move because most of us like and know each other...I'm also proud to say our neighborhood association president has a compost pile at the side of her FRONT yard, and it looks pretty good surrounded by an ornate 3 ft iron fence. You wouldn't have any idea it even was a compost pile unless you get within two feet of it.

latest HOA stupidity - cut down the trees to save the grass

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sylviatexas1

tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱

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latest HOA stupidity - cut down the trees to save the grass

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