Cathy, I am so glad you posted this thread. I also don't spray, and I can comment on rose varieties that we both grow. Right now, my roses look the worst that they have looked in many years. It's been a very wet spring ... this is the first time in years that our huge lake in town, Lake Lewisville, is actually ABOVE its optimum level. The good news is that hopefully our multi-year drought is over. The bad news is that most of my roses are eye-sores.

My Mrs Dudley Cross almost never has any blackspot on it here in my garden. But, yes, right now it definitely DOES have some, more than it has ever had before. But it still looks better than some of my other roses. I hope you don't give up on her, this is not a typical occurance.

That is interesting about your Marie Pavie being so clean right now. Mine is growing by leaps and bounds, very vigorous. But as soon as it puts on new leaves it's old leaves turn yellow and I have to pull them off to keep it looking descent. Thankfully, the new leaves are coming on as fast as the old leaves are coming off, so it is by no means naked.

My Rise-N-Shine looks as bad as it always does, year after year. It hardly ever had what I would say is blackspot, instead, the leaves just quickly turn yellow and fall off. This is very typical for this rose in my garden, even during the best weather. I keep it only because my daughter loves it so much and always has. She nicknamed it "flashlight" when she was a little thing. The rose is now many years old, and is otherwise very vigorous.

Souvenir de la Malmaison? Just a touch of yellow leaf drop off. Nothing serious. Tough as nails for me. I still consider it the finest rose ever created, although I can't list it as my very favorite due only to my dislike of things that are extra thorny. It's the thorniest rose that I allow in my garden, so that should tell you something.

My Gruss roses? I would love to hide the truth and say they are perfectly fine right now. But I can't. They have uncharacteristically lost approx half of their leaves. It's more of a yellow leaf drop than a black-spotted leaf thing in my garden with the Gruss roses, so they are not hideous, they are just kind of lightly foliated. For some reason, the one I grow in a large container has retained 100% of its leaves and remains a thing of beauty right now. All my Gruss roses are currently shooting up new basal canes very vigorously ... this rose always recovers well for me, and will be back to its old self in no time. Pink Gruss is still my favorite rose by a landslide. FYI, my 'Reine des Violette' is doing the same thing as my Gruss roses right now ... vigorous new growth replacing tons of yellow leaf drop.

My absolute best looking foliage right now? 'Spice'. If I grew roses only for fine foliage, I'd grow nothing but china roses, which were apparently created by God specifically for China and Texas, lol. Immaculate looking right now, and completely worthy of its inclusion on the EarthKind elite listing. 'Spice' is not a showy rose, but it is healthy and nicely scented.

My absolute worst looking foliage right now? 'Paul Neyron' & 'Golden Celebration'. Yellow leaf drop doesn't look too bad to me, it's just a passing thing that you have to endure. But PN & GC have giant, ugly BLACK spots on almost all their leaves. 'Golden Celebration' has an excuse, it's just a baby, so I shouldn't judge, and I am encouraged that it now has tons of new growth all over it.

My biggest surprise? 'Heritage'. Beautiful plant from top to bottom. Heart-warming blooms. Nice, light fragrance. Only a few leaves have turned yellow, no blackspot at all. When viewed up close, I can visiably see thrips on the petals of its blooms, yet they seem to be able to do almost no damage. Meanwhile, they will be destroying the blooms of my other lightly-colored roses like Mrs Dudley Cross. A compensation for Heritage's reputation as a fast blower, is that the petals are still beautiful when they fall cleanly to the ground. I place value on a self-cleaning, fast repeating, shapely, fragrant rose.

Randy

Great topic. I was out this morning trying to decide what looked worse. gruss an Achen or Rise and Shine....close call... I think Gruss looks worse right now (are you listening out there in the garden) and if things don't improve this summer, out she goes...
So what does everyone do with these hideous leaves. leave them, pull them off and let them be naked?I wasn't sure if they were providing at least a little bit of leaf surface for feeding the plant.Or they are just making things worse by leaving them on until new growth comes along?thanks for input..

teacup, I don't know if it's good for the plant of not, but when I have the time, I pull the yellow leaves off. I do this especially for my favorite roses like my Pink Gruss roses and my Reine des Violette. But even on Pink Gruss and RdV I can't keep them all pulled off this wet spring, I'd have to quit my day job. As for Rise-N-Shine, I just turn my head when walking by and pretend to not see the plant ... it's just too ugly with its naked, thorny little sticks.

Cathy, I should have added the ARE pioneer rose, 'Thomas Affleck', as being nearly perfect looking right now, foliage wise. It's a trouper for me.

Randy

Oh, Cathy, and 'Softee', AKA "The Jefferson Rose" ... perfect leaves right now.

Randy

Randy,

I'm so glad that you mentioned your roses are looking worse than normal. Some of mine are fairly new and aren't looking that great so I'm not going to judge them yet.
PINK GRUSS is one of those, dropping leaves left and right and the blooms have brown edges. SDLM is a tiny little thing right now, but it looks better than PINK GRUSS. I got a bloom the other day and it looked perfect.

Cathy - I stopped spraying last year and have been gradually replacing my unhealthy roses with more healthy varieties, although it's kind of experimental at this point.
If you don't have THOMAS AFFLECK, that's one that you need. I'm amazed that I've never seen a single speck of blackspot on it.

I can't decide what I think about ARCHDUKE CHARLES. It almost seems to look prettier in the winter than it does in the summer. It was beautiful and full over the winter and now it's lost about 50% of it's leaves. I think the same thing happened last year.

It's funny to hear your comment on MRS. B.R. Cant. I got mine last year and it has lost about 75% of it's leaves, but I figured it was because it's in a spot where it doesn't get enough sun. I'm going to try moving it and see how it does.

BELINDA'S DREAM is on my borderline list also.

I just bought DAME DE COEUR, so it's too soon to know how it's going to do, but it looks good so far.

TRAVIATA isn't an antique, but it's nice and healthy.

Laurie

Randy,
I'm so glad you replied. I value your opinions on roses because I know that you place high value on foliage, too. I agree that SdlM is the queen of roses. She is my pet. I am so attached to her that I would resort to spraying her if I had to. (Please don't tell her that, tho.... I don't want her to know the lengths I would go to to keep her in my garden. LOL)

I'm encouraged by your report on Mrs. Dudley Cross. I will not threaten her with the shovel yet. However, Lady Hillingdon will be removed this weekend. She is 100% defoliated and Carrie, near Texarkana, reported in another thread that her Lady Hillingdon defoliates even with spray. That's all I needed to read. No divas for me!

Marie Pavie is an enigma right now. I don't know why she is 100% clean. She barely gets 3 hours of full sun. I planted her in this undesirable location because I saw her planted in a similar location at LISDOLA and thought it was worth the experiment. She blooms beautifully and is clean. Other roses with tougher reputations in full sun are naked. Go figure!

I am glad your GaAachens are keeping some of their leaves. Mine completely defoliated from black spot. They got really ugly long before they went naked.

Your comment about China roses was what I used to believe. But Mutabilis (one of my favorite roses) has lost half of his leaves to black spot, and Martha Gonzales is completely defoliated. Martha has a date with the shovel.

Teacup, diseased leaves still provide photosynthesis, so leave them there until the rose turns them loose. Sometimes that's pretty hard to do!!

I had to laugh.... it's a sad day when you have to decide who looks worse, Gruss or R-n-S. LOL At least I have lots of salvias, daylilies, and other perennials out there. If all I had was roses, I'd have to cry this spring. LOL

I am so thankful for the abundant rain. Our area needed it badly. And as I shovel prune some roses, this gives me space to try others. It's a GOOD THING all the way around!

Cathy

Ah yes, I forgot to mention a Pioneer rose, Anson Jones, offspring of Katy Road Pink and Mrs. Oakley Fisher. Picture Katy Road Pink's big informal blousey flowers in yellow... Well, right now, picture those flowers on naked thorny sticks. Nasty! It's gonna meet Mr. Shovel.

Laurie, I'm laughing because we are conversing about clematis over on the Texas forum, aren't we? Thank you for mentioning Thomas Affleck, along with Randy. Randy's photos of that rose always make me remember that I should plant it. I gave away my Archduke Charles last fall. It just didn't WOW me enough to keep it around, but no specific complaints, just HoHum.

Randy, thanks for your recs on Softee, Heritage, Spice, and TA. I'm takin' notes.

Cathy

Cathy,

I was laughing about that also. What can I say, we have the same taste in plants! Do you by chance, grow daylilies also?

Laurie

Laurie....

YES!!

I grow daylilies. If you don't grow Frivilous Frills, get it. It is my favorite daylily. I haven't seen a photo of FF that does it justice. Such substance and subtle shades of coloring. It reblooms, too.

And reblooming irises. Buckwheat and Immortality are putting on their second show of the season already. I'm so amazed!

Feel free to enable me on daylilies.

To keep this message legal, I'd better mention something about roses, too. LOL Do you grow Crepuscule? I wish I knew if it kept its leaves in our part of the world. I am pretty smitten with it in photos.

Cathy

I've never heard of Frivilous Frills, so I'll definitely have to look that one up. I just took some pictures of some that are blooming for the first time. Once I get them uploaded, I'll post them on the Texas forum.

Nope, I don't have Crepuscule.

It's also funny that Rise 'n Shine looks pitiful for both you and Randy. I've always heard it was a good one, but I was at the Ft. Worth Botanical Gardens last week and they had several planted, and they were all pitiful looking. I was disappointed because I've been looking for some healthy minis.

Laurie

I've heard from several people that there's no such thing as a healthy no-spray mini. I tried Rise 'n Shine because I liked the name and it is mentioned in Mike Shoup's book, Roses in the Southern Garden.

It's no longer in this southern garden, tho. LOL

Cathy

I have one that I can truly say in no-spray and that is Debut.

Laurie

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What a sweet rose! That full bush shot is so pleasing. Debut looks like a real winner.

Thank you for posting photos. I'm enabled twice today. LOL

Cathy

I am also no spray, and I view success as keeping its leaves. But also, if it comes back and blooms/thrives despite taking it on the proverbial chin with blackspot. I think that's the point of the Earthkind roses. The only time I have lost a rose to disease (other than gradual decline) was during a dry spell, and spider mites ate up my Lamarque.

To be fair I need to say that some roses(besides gruss and Rise-n-shine aren't doing too bad.My Thomas Affleck looks good after a trying summer last year. It was its first year and it looked to be struggling. It lost a lot of leaves to blackspot earlier this spring, but it looks good now.Belinda's Dream was the same way.They only have a tiny amount of blackspot now.
Mutabilis is still doing ok as is marie daley...The real surprise was Bailey's Red. last year it grew like gangbusters and was hardly ever not in bloom and was always clean as a whistle. This year it still blooming and growing but really hit hard by blackspot.It is my husband's favorite rose, and in a prominent spot so I'm hoping it bounces back soon.

Cathy, how tall is 'Immortality'? Is it shorter than most Tall Bearded Iris? If it is the height of an Intermediate Bearded Iris (24" or less), then I think I might need it.

Randy

Cathy,

I just remembered that when I was at the Ft. Worth BG last week, I wrote down the names of the ones that looked the best (besides KO) and they were Marie Von Houtte, Carefree Beauty, and Georgetown Tea.

Laurie

I'm glad that your brought this up because I've been thinking about how odd this spring has been.
As a generalization the losers are teas, chinas, and noisettes. The winners are Austins.
First off, I spray. But I've been busy building a new rose garden and didn't spray until it was too late. So my results may be skewed. But none of the Austins got blackspot or any of the other crud that the other roses got.
Naked roses: Cramoisi Superior, Duchesse de Brabant, La Reine, Louis Odier, all of which are in a bed that usually gets overhead watering because they are so healthy that I don't worry about it and never spray over there.
More naked roses: M.A.C., Puerto Rico, Isabella Sprunt, Lady Hillingdon, Lamarque, Mme Berard, Gloire de Dijon is 100% defoliated, other climbing roses like Celine Forestier and Sombreuil aren't far behind.
Safrano is fine.
With a couple of rounds of spray under my belt they are starting to leaf back out and hopefully this crud won't come back. But what is really sad to me is that I've tried to give some potted chinas and noisettes away to the folks at work and nobody wants them because they look so bad! I was hoping to spread the OGRs around to these no care gardens and let them shine!

Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. The rain could continue like this all summer long and the blackspot could stay and I would be the happiest woman around because we need the rain SO BADLY!
With any luck this might be the first summer in 3 years that my well doesn't run out of water.

cweathersby ... "as a generalization the losers are teas, chinas, and noisettes. The winners are Austins".

Now that's something I never thought I'd hear. That is definitely not the case in my Texas garden. Prime examples: the perfectly clean china rose 'Spice', and the blackspot-covered 'Golden Celebration'.
Just goes to show, every garden is different. Anything is possible.

Randy

Randy,
I've often wondered about that myself. There are so many bad things said about Austins, but mine have been blackspot free except for Charlotte, whose growth is just so terribly dense that the inner leaves get blackspot. And I'm not just talking about this spring, either. They've been 100% clean this spring. But I have a couple of teas that never have stayed clean even with spray. Actually, they pretty much stay naked. Those are my worst 2 roses followed by some of the HTs and Fls which are clean when sprayed frequently. I am a very lazy sprayer though, and only do it when some of the HTs are driving me crazy, but the Austins have stayed clean. Go figure.
I don't know why things are so different in my garden and maybe things will change over time. The new garden (installed this spring, not the one I was talking about a minute ago) has many many more noisettes and teas and chinas and lots of Austins but very few HTs and Fls, so the things I've noticed about blackspot didn't affect which roses I chose! The shape of the plant is so important to me and you just can't beat the shape of noisettes, teas, chinas, and Austins.
The entire pot ghetto is composed of noisettes and chinas and believe me, NONE of them escaped this spring crud except for Carefree Sunshine. Not even Spice.
I've always been half scared to mention these "variations from the norm" because they are so contrary to what other people seem to find in their gardens. But this spring the differences are stark.

Oh, dear, I just found this thread and I hope I'm in time to plead for a reprieve for Martha Gonzales!

Here's my story: I have Martha Gonzales, Mrs. Dudley Cross, Belinda's Dream, an unknown apricot/cream Austin that came with the house, and Francis Dubrieul planted together. Francis got blackspot and dropped every leaf, with the Austin and (gasp!) Martha G. following suit almost immediately. MDC got a few spotted leaves on the side next to the defoliated plants, but on the opposite side she remained disease free! BD, on the other side, lost a few lower leaves but she's already regrown. But here's the kicker: I have a couple of other Martha G.s across the yard from the naked one, and they're both fine! Furthermore, my second MDC, about 15 feet away from the diseased roses, has no trace of disease.

Another bed across the way has SDLM, SDSA, original Gruss, and Felicia. Gruss usually loses half his leaves, but he and all his bedmates have all their leaves.

It seems to me that whatever Francis had this year was something abnormally bad that his neighboring roses, normally resistant, couldn't cope with. But the good news was that it spread only to immediate neighbors but went no further. Now Martha and UNK Austin are growing new leaves, but I think I have to get rid of Francis. He's still nothing but sticks.

My losers: Mme Franziska Kruger (the worst), Francis Dubrieul, Sophie's Perpetual, Lavender Lassie, Buff Beauty and Hermosa.

Buff and Hermosa are not completely nakey yet. Hermosa will be if it doesn't dry up soon. MFK has been balling since she started blooming. Right now she's the worst looking rose in the garden, all flopped over on top of poor Comtesse du Cayla, who's not looking so hot herself.

SdLM, Spice, Cramoisi Superior, Georgetown Tea (Dr. Grill), Prosperity, Maggie, Mme Laurette Messimy all look fabulous.

When I look at the garden layout, one bed in particular, the bad roses are concentrated on one end, the so-so in the middle and the best on the opposite end. I've been thinking about spraying just to control the fungal spread.

cweathersby, it's good to report "variations from the norm" when they happen in your garden, and I'm glad you did. I used to hear that SdlM got blackspot from people, and it caused me to hold off on buying it for years. When I finally tried SdlM in my own garden, I found it was nearly a flawless performer year after year. Now I share my experience with that rose often on this forum, because I don't want other people with a similar climate to be afraid of it. I have had a similar experience with an Austin ... 'Heritage'. I've heard reports from people in this area that it is trouble. But I finally bought one last year, and it has performed beyond my wildest dreams so far. I have loved that Austin from day one and still do.

Random_Harvest, that is interesting that the roses right around your diseased one are struggling. It does make sense though.

CivilMind, I'm glad to hear your 'Spice' & 'SdlM' are also doing well right now. And I used to grow 'Cramoisi Superieur', and it always had flawless leaves too.

Randy

Thank you all for chiming in with your roses' conditions right now. And Randy, thanks so much for keeping this thread anchored while work kept me away from my computer. Whew...

Randy, Immortality is taller than my only intermediate iris, but is not quite as tall or bulky as my other TB's. It is taller than 24 inches, tho.

Carrie, reporting those "variations from the norm" often makes some of us feel not quite so freakish when we have oddball things going on in our gardens. I like knowing the good, bad, and ugly. Right now, my garden has plenty of ugly. LOL

Random Harvest, I'm not gonna mention Martha Gonzales. Sorry. :( But it's ok.... I actually do have a small rooted one in a pot that might could go in a less conspicuous spot. The one that didn't get the reprieve was front and center and I just couldn't bear to look at her nakedness another minute. oops... I wasn't gonna mention that.... ;)

Civilmind, thanks for your update. I've had MFK on my lust list for a while now. Now I don't have to wish I had her. This is GOOD!!

I'm gonna quote Randy here: "Just goes to show, every garden is different. Anything is possible."

This spring surely makes that evident!!

I have truly enjoyed everyone's input on this thread.

Cathy

I happened to be at Antique Rose Emporium this saturday and Marie Pavie jumped into my wagon.I couldn't stand to look at Gruss an Achen any longer. It is in a prime viewing location and the sight of naked branches with a few pitiful leaves on top was too much for me. Added to that the bloom for the last two years was disappointing made the decision easier. Marie P. is settling in nicely, waving to Marie Daley at the other end of the row.

Good luck with your Marie Pavie. Mine has been covered in yellow leaves & tan-colored blooms that must be pulled off to keep it presentable.

Randy

Since the cool wet spring is stil with us, thought I'd give an update. During the brief break from the rain Sunday I got a chance to do a garden walk.

Seems I left Rosette Delizy off my previous loser list. She looks awful. Balling like a big baby next to MFK who is still balling like before. Cathy, I've heard this is typical behavior for MFK but she thrives in the hot dry summer. If I had known she would look this bad I would not have her in my garden.

Hermosa is now a pitiful, leafless skeleton of a rose bush. Buff Beauty doesn't seem so bad now and actually has a few buds on her.

Cramoisi Superiour is by far my favorite right now. Clean foliage and pumping out the blooms. SdlM, Georgetown Tea, Spice, Maggie and Prosperity are also still looking good.

Yes, Cramoisi Superieur is so dependable here.

Randy

My poor roses are languishing from all this rain. Mutabilis is totally naked. Felicia, Lady Hillingdon, Madame Alfred Carriere, Climbing Pinkie, and Mrs. Dudley Cross are mostly naked. Souvenir de la Malmaison, Kronprincessin Viktoria, Katy Road Pink, and Skyrocket are spotty, but have most of their leaves. Mrs. B. R. Cant, Perle d'Or, and Marie Pavie are clean. Belinda's Dream's foliage is mostly ok, she seems to have shrugged off the onslaught of BS, but the balling is just horrendous. Marechal Niel is a balled mess, too.

I've shovel pruned several roses that were not my favorites. This prolonged wet spell resulting in fungal issues of untold proportions was the final straw.

I am pleased to read that Maggie is looking good right now. I have always admired that rose and often thought about adding her to my garden.

This is how bad things really are right now in my gardening world. Knock Out is my best looking, most floriferous, rose. LOL I'm actually considering adding a couple of Knock Outs back in the distance for disease free landscape color. Even the ones I have in part sun are clean with lots of blooms. I'm working so many hours, I don't have time to enjoy my roses up close. Good color viewed from the kitchen window counts for a lot right now!

Cathy

Hi, I have to admit to that right now KO is really going to town with blooms. For some reason I hate to admit it but I to am going to get some more. I have the Double knock outs. They have 5-6 nice blooms on each plant.