Environmental tolerance claims and generic identification suspect.

can be found Googling for pictures of Illicium. That is the genus this belongs to, and not Magnolia.

Seattle sleuth. :)

Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Magnoliopsida
Order: Austrobaileyales
Family: Illiciaceae
Genus: Illicium
Species: Illicium henryi

I never tried the vender below. But they have good description: http://www.nichegardens.com/catalog/item.php?id=1515

basic said: "Seattle sleuth. :) "

???

Another nice description with pictures: http://www.woodlanders.net/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantDetail&plant_id=120

Quote "Henry Anise Tree - Handsome dense pyramidal shrub with waxy pink flowers. Much admired at Woodlanders. Uncommon aromatic evergreen."

Magnolia is not a division, a class (or a family, in the botanical sense - botanical usage being implied by your capitalization of Magnolia). It is a genus.

>The family of Magnolia never ceases to amuse us. There exists an evergreen Magnolia treeis a clearly false statement that the tree shown is a member of the Magnolia family and the genus Magnolia. To give what was probably your intended meaning you would have not capitalized "magnolia" - although calling this tree a "magnolia" would still be quite a stretch.

Next time maybe state what it really is in the first place (if known), in this case a species of Illicium.

Bboy, it is not in the genus magnolia. But they are closely related.

One correction to the website is that they eventually grow into trees of about 30 feet tall; thus the name Henry Anise Tree. They are not shrubs.

"it is not in the genus magnolia. But they are closely related"

Sorry, not true. They are in different orders (Magnolia in Magnoliales, Illicium in Austrobaileyales). That puts them about as closely related as for example, a horse is to a cat.

Resin

I LOVE the smell of this shrub (by my way I define shrubs and trees, it's a big shrub). It's near intoxicating.

I have Illicium floridanum and Illicium pavriflorum, both native to the southeastern US. I agree, the smell of the foliage, even when just lightly brushed, is wonderful.

Most people mistake it for Rhododendron when they see it in my yard (since they've not heard of/seen Illicium, I guess).

Just trying to inject some humor into the very, very serious world of plants. Seattle Slew was a famous race horse (triple crown winner in 1977) and Ron lives in Seattle. He "sleuthed" the photo origin. Does that clear it up?

Quote: Seattle Slew was a famous race horse

Insect bite.

... for example, a horse is to a cat.

Resin,

Lol, your example is in the Kingdom Animalia. Thus, I disagree.

The relationship between Illicium and Magnolia reminds me of the relationship between Tulip Popular and Southern Magnolia, if you have the experience with the trees.

Esh GA,

IMHO, Illicium pavriflorum is easily overlooked. They lack showy flower. Illicium floridanum has flower smell of Anchovies. Both are strictly shrubs originated from Florida and Southern Louisiana of zone 10. I donÂt think they perform well in colder zones.

On the other hand, Henry Ansie Tree has great properties. Some lines are originated from zone 7, sometimes in drought regions. It is extremely shade tolerant. The flower is more Magnolia-shaped of delightful color. With good care, Henry Ansie Tree grows into a magnificent up-right tree of up to 30Â tall.

Here is a closer look:
{{gwi:327832}}

Tulip Poplar (no u), Liriodendron tulipifera, is in the Magnoliaceae family. Southern Magnolia, Magnolia grandiflora, is also in the Magnoliaceae family. Plants in the same family are reasonably closely related. Magnolias and Illiciums are not in the same family or even in the same order.

I think a better plant example would be to compare Magnolias and Dutchman's Pipes.

BTW, do you happen to have a picture of a larger, tree-form Illicium henryi?

Brandon,

The family Illiciaceae has been recognized by most taxonomists for the past several decades. The APG II system treats Illiciaceae as a family that may be treated as part of another family, the Schisandraceae or allows for the optional segregation of the Illiciaceae from the Schisandraceae. Schisandraceae is a family of flowering plants. Before that, the plants concerned were all assigned to the family Magnoliaceae.

Yes, they changed the entire order and everything. Nevertheless, there is undeniable resemblance of these plants.

Throughout the entire history of biology, is Magnolias ever placed under Aristolochiaceae with DutchmanÂs Pipse?

Plants have often, and still occasionally are, miscategorized. That doesn't make the old designations partially valid. As science advances, these mistakes are recognized and corrected. Going back to "old knowledge" only perpetuates error.

Resin's example was reasonable in my opinion. I attempted to put it in terms of plants because you were unwilling to consider his example only because his example was derived from another Kingdom.

There's absolutely nothing wrong in seeing visual similarity between two virtually unrelated plants, but calling them by an incorrect name is, in my opinion, not advisable.

Brandon,

ResinÂs example is extremely unreasonable. The family Magnoliaceae is not something easily miscategorized. They are the earliest known flowering plants. If you know what a primitive flower structure is.

The change of classification reflects ... wait, since Resin claims Illiciaceae and Magnoliaceae are cats and horses, I would challenge him to state the justification of the change. Lol.

Brandon, would you take some pictures of your Henry Anise and post them here?

The link below has 2 pictures of a large plant:
http://www.312green.com/forum/detail-f3-t8367-p1.html

The pictures load very slowly for me but they worth the wait.

Take a look at the phylogeny of the Austrobaileyales among the flowering plants. Austrobaileyales and Magnoliales diverged right back near the early evolution of flowering plants, probably pre-Cretaceous. Magnolias are more closely related to grasses and roses (all in the same Mesangiospermae clade) than they are to Austrobaileyales. Among all flowering plants, only waterlilies and Amborella are less closely related. My horse - cat comparison is actually very conservative; a better comparison would actually be a horse and a kangaroo (with only Platypus and Echidna being less related).

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: Austrobaileyales

I couldn't tell how large the ones in the first two pictures were. They looked possibly very shrubby, but the pictures don't really show the overall form of the plants. The plant in the third picture is a tree. If it doesn't sucker and is kept pruned just a little, it's well on its way to being a tree. I would still like to see an up-right 30Â tall version of one of these. All the ones I've seen, in pictures and real life, start spreading into more of a wide shrub by the time they reach around 6'.

There are tree-sized camellias and ternstroemias in Asia also. Does not mean these will be practically useful as trees in other regions. Even in Japan the camellia trees there have taken hundreds of years to grow large.

Brandon,

If you look at the third picture, the focus is at a short tree. The cameraman wants to take a close-look at the leaves. If you look behind, there are two Henry Anise Trees in the picture. One is right behind; you see only a few leaves. The other one is at the top-right corner. Do you see it?

Henry Anise Tree does produce long branches. I consider this a merit. When the trunk is thick to your liking, you can slowly remove the lower branches. Eventually, you lift the wide-canopy far above the ground. Yes, they do grow to 30 ft, but the pictures are copyright protected. You will need to pay to have one.

Resin, lol, really?

Here is a better classification diagram:

             ___________Various others (highly evolved orchids, chrysanthemums, bamboos, etc)
             :
        _____:_____Magnoliids (various Magnolias are the most primitive types of this branch)
        :     :_____Austrobaileyales (Henry Anise Tree is a most primitive type of this branch)
________:
    :   :____Nymphaeaceae
    :
    :____Amborella trichopoda (ResinÂs water lilies)

The Henry Ansie Tree positions at the beginning of the branching between Magnoliids and Austrobaileyales. Various Magnolias also stands at the base of this branching. Therefore, they are related.

I also claim the most primitive ancestor(s) of Diprotodontia (Kangaroo) is closely related to the most primitive ancestor(s) of Perissodactyla (horse).

Comparing highly specialized descendents down the branches is, in fact, inappropriate for this case.

Bboy, you can find large Camellia trees in the US.

I saw a huge crimson-colored camellia in a small park near Charlotte NC. I donÂt know how old it is, but it was surely a tree. They had freezing rain. The huge number of delicate roses contrasted the frost-covered and ice-dribbling leaves. It looked unbelievable.

If you skip through the pictures of the Camellia forum, you will see many. I donÂt know the situation in your state or the West coast.

Just in case someone could not understand, my classification diagram is to be read from left to right. It starts from one trunk (left) and branches as the plants evolved. If you have questions about this diagram, please do not hesitate to ask.

For anyone that doesn't know (or seems to be developing AlzheimerÂs, like me), Snasxs's diagram is called a cladogram and they are explained on many websites.

BTW, according to the cladograms on the Tree of Life Web Project (the most through and up-to-date publicly posted set of cladograms I know of), my Dutchman's Pipevines (Piperales) are considerably closer to Magnolias (Magnoliales) than Illiciums (Austrobaileyales) are.

Here is a link that might be useful: Magnoliids on the TOL Web Project

>Bboy, you can find large Camellia trees in the US.

I saw a huge crimson-colored camellia in a small park near Charlotte NCA large camellia etc. tree, like I was talking about is something on the order of 35'-60'. In other words, a medium-sized tree - not a big bush.

"If you have questions about this diagram, please do not hesitate to ask"

What's your reasoning behind a diagram that is very different to those published by numerous other scientists who have done extensive genetic analysis?

And (2) How can I turn off that annoying flashing text?

Resin

A lot of what we once thought we knew about plant evolution and relationships has turned out to be wrong. Recent phylogenies show that pineresin is correct: Illiciaceae and Magnoliaceae are not very closely related, and are separated by many, many millions of years of evolution. They may share some superficial resemblance but it's only because they both groups have changed relatively little and retained many "primitive" characteristics since other branches of the flowering plants went on to evolve into many very different families with many "new" characteristics.

BTW I'm not sure just where that "better classification diagram" came from but it doesn't show Austrobaileyales and Magnoliids as closely related to each other; it shows their relationship as unresolved with respect to each other and to "higher" angiosperms. In fact the recent phylogenies show that the magnoliids are more closely related to the "higher" angiosperms than either group is to Illiciaceae.

If anything, a horse and a cat are MORE closely related to each other than are Illicium and Magnolia; the former pair almost certainly shared a common ancestor much more recently than did the latter pair!

Brandon,

I agree that Piperales are closer to Magnoliales than Austrobileyales are. However, do I ever say your example is inappropriate? Might I friendly suggest you to search through my posts. For your revealed seniority, I guess you are kidding with me anyways.

BTW, have you looked at the top-right tree of the third picture? What do you think?

I also would like to know how your Henry Anise Trees are doing in Zone 6b.

Resin, why donÂt you show me your cladogram.

Quote Johnnie " it doesn't show Austrobaileyales and Magnoliids as closely related to each other; it shows their relationship as unresolved with respect to each other and to "higher" angiosperms."

Johnnie, however I feel animals and plants are not comparable. Do you not agree?

"Resin, why donÂt you show me your cladogram"

Not mine; the one produced by Tolweb based on multiple studies by numerous scientists.

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: Tolweb

Resin, but Tolweb cladogram is isomorphic to mine. Are you not familiar with it?

"Resin, but Tolweb cladogram is isomorphic to mine"

Sorry, no, it isn't. The Tolweb one shows Austrobaileyales diverging before the magnoliids/monocots/eudicots/etc had become separated from each other; yours doesn't.

Resin

Snasxs, maybe I misunderstood your statement, but when you said, "Throughout the entire history of biology, is Magnolias ever placed under Aristolochiaceae with DutchmanÂs Pip(es)?", I thought you were implying that my example was not appropriate.

I don't understand what you mean by "For your revealed seniority...." If you were talking about my comment about AlzheimerÂs, I just forget things very very very easily. I'm relatively young. My senility comes from a bad brain rather than age. LOL

I do see the Illicium henryi tree in your picture. It's not 30' tall, but various aspects of the picture seem to indicate that it could be fairly young with plenty of extra growth potential.

The Illicium henryi in this area I referred to are not mine. I'm unsure how old they are, but they seem to be very happy. Also, although I'm in zone 6b according to the USDA's official map, our climate hasn't been anything near that in a couple of decades. Knoxville is probably around the 7b/8a break.

Just for the record, in my experience Illicium floridanum is the most cold hardy Illicium(solid zone 6), followed by I. mexicanum and I. pavriflorum(zone 6/7 border). I. henryi would be 4th most hardy(zone 7) after those 3.

Nope, Pine Resin,

Please look at the first branching before Austrobaileyales and the others. That is the diverging which you mistakenly thought was missing.

Brandon,

As you noticed, I did not say that.

Can you not take some pictures of the Henry Anise Trees in your region? If it says 6b, it is 6b. The USDA zones are updated scientifically.

I forgot to mention that I saw a couple places in China where Illicium henryi and Illicium floridanum were planted together and I. floridanum was in the 6' to 8' range, while I' henryi was in the 10' to 15' range.

"As you noticed, I did not say that." ?

"The USDA zones are updated scientifically."
ROFL, sometimes it's hard to tell when people are joking on here, but that one is unmistakable.

Resin,
Have your read my response? So, I am correct.

Bboy,
Is the Camellia tree in the picture considered large?
{{gwi:327835}}

No. Your cladogram is not the same as the Tolweb one.

Resin

Resin, but Tolweb cladogram is isomorphic to mine.

Resin, obviously you made a rigid mistake!

No, just got bored with banging my head against a brick wall.

I'll back up pineresin on this; snaxs's cladogram does not say the same thing as the TOL cladogram. The two trees are not the same, with one showing a lack of resolution (trichotomy) where the other shows resolution (dichotomy). Again, little point in arguing with somebody who keeps insisting they can read a cladogram when they apparently can't.

Meanwhile I'm still trying to figure out what that blinking "Resin's water lilies" refers to.

Johnnie, the first branching before Austrobaileyales and the others, it is the dichotomy which you mistakenly thought was missing. Check again.

What is a "rigid" mistake? Is that a British term?