That's a good question. You've been on GardenWeb a long time, so you obviously know manure has a lot of nitrogen in it, but maybe not so much to lower the C:N ratio so drastically to 13 to 1, as the calculator says. Organic Gardening for Dummies lists old manure at 20:1 and lists N-P-K for chicken manure as 3-1-1 (rabbit's even higher at 5 - 3 - 2 -- got lotsa rabbits here). The Organic Lawn Care Manual lists chicken manure a little lower in Nitrogen than the Dummies book: 2 - 1.5 - 0.5 Again, your question is very good. Not sure why your calculator drops the C:N ratio so much to 13:1 when Dummies lists general manure at 20:1. There's variation in the books because Let It Rot! list general manure at 15:1 and manure with bedding at 23:1. Let It Rot! lists fresh hen manure N-P-K at 1.1 - 0.9 - 0.5 and dried hen manure with litter at 2.8 - 2.8 - 1.5 . Hen manure is nothing like bat guano at 10 - 4.5 - 2 Maybe the calculator is confusing hen manure with bat guano?? At what web site did you find that calculator on? There's a calculator on the Aerobin400.com web site at https://www.aerobin400.com/aerobin400-USA/compostsimulator.aspx and if you select poultry manure and enter 1 pound, it gives a C:N of 10:1. So maybe that's why. Maybe hen manure and bat guano are those special manures with lots and lots of nitrogen.

Remember the old joke: Which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of rocks? Think about it that way, when you hear the C:N thing that's like the pound to pound ( a whole lot more feathers than rocks). When "they" say equal parts by volume that's like a bucket full of each (same volume). That's not a perfect comparison I know since C:N ratio and brown to green aren't measuring the exact same thing. Personally I like two parts brown to one part green, but then I'm always adding more of one or the other. As someone else said, after a while you get a feel for it as you observe what's happening. Another way that some on here would explain it is if it don't get hot add greens, if it smells of ammonia add browns. It ain't rocket science, just compost. And the compost police will let you go with just a warning the first couple of times you get the ratio wrong. ps rocks take a long time to break down, so if you want to use the compost in this millennium, go easy :^? Jim

I had all intentions of staying out of this thread, for I have stated my opinion in the thread "Adding straight nitrogen to browns". In that thread a request was made to show "proof" that using partial composted compost was acceptable in organic gardening. A review of said thread will show only two people bothered to post such "proof", myself and the author of this thread, with both links ignored by the requester of said "proof". Maybe this was not good enough "proof", or possibly our contribution was not viewed as prestigious enough in name recognition. Whatever the case, let us see what happens with this attempt to qualify as "proof" enough. Jeannie7, As has been stated, the question of who you deemed as "they said" in another thread went unanswered. From all your previous threads for the last year, you have stated using manure less than one year old in a garden is "nasty". One is forced to conclude that "they" is really "you". As well, I have stated in many threads I agree with you on many of the opinions you have stated, for I too follow the same technique as you do. Nonetheless, you have continued to fail to produce a real "they" as you differ in the techniques others use. If I may be so forward, I found who "they" were for you. Keeping in mind your position of only qualified institutions need apply (The University of Georgia did not make your cut); from The Washington State University I offer this "they said": "To reduce the risk of disease, we suggest these precautions:" "· Wait 120 days from the time of applying fresh manure to the time of harvest of high-risk crops (those where the edible part is in contact with the soil: such as root and leaf crops and strawberries) if those crops are not always cooked. Wait at least 90 days for other crops. If you apply manure within 60 days of harvest, use only aged (for at least a year) or hot-composted manure. · Never apply fresh manure after the garden is planted." This does not quite fit with your statements, however I feel the intent was honorable, although "said proof" is not quite in line with your logic. Upon further review of my sources I ran across information, although not from a university, may squeeze in under your cut. It comes from the author of the website Sovereignty Library; one of his long list of library links was used earlier in this thread concerning roots. If anyone had looked at the pictures (only 2) of Sweet Corn Roots, one would see that after 16 days the roots are below the level of 2 inches of any mulch added to the soil. After 8 weeks the roots are so massive any amendments added will only serve to feed the feeder roots of said corn. If one bothered to read the text of the page one could grow a crop anyone would be proud of. Anyway, back to the author Steve Solomon; in his book "Organic Gardeners Composting" he offers this tidbit: "Sheet Composting" "Burying kitchen garbage is a traditional form of sheet composting practiced by row-cropping gardeners usually in mild climates where the soil does not freeze in winter. Some people use a posthole digger to make a neat six- to eight-inch diameter hole about eighteen inches deep between well-spaced growing rows of plants. When the hole has been filled to within two or three inches of the surface, it is topped off with soil. Rarely will animals molest buried garbage, it is safe from flies and yet enough air exists in the soil for it to rapidly decompose. The local soil ecology and nutrient balance is temporarily disrupted, but the upset only happens in this one little spot far enough away from growing plants to have no harmful effect." It gets even better: "Manure" "When evaluating manure keep in mind the many pitfalls. Fresh manure is very valuable, but if you obtain some that has been has been heaped up and permitted to heat up, much of its nitrogen may already have dissipated, as ammonia while the valuable digestive enzymes will have been destroyed by the high temperatures at the heap's core. A similar degradation happens to digestive enzymes when manure is dried and sacked. Usually, dried manure comes from feedlots where it has also first been stacked wet and gone through a violent heating process. So if I were going to use sacked dried manure to lower the C/N of a compost pile, I'd evaluate it strictly on its cost per pound of actual nitrogen. In some cases, seed meals might be cheaper and better able to drop the heap's carbon-to-nitrogen ratio even more than manure." You see Jeannie7; the real issue is C:N ratio when using compost. Letting manure sit for an extended period of time does not help to be kind, and is a real waste to be exact. Anything near 20:1 and some type of soil amendment should be added to limit "robbing" of nitrogen from the soil. If one is willing to wait for the ratio to reduce naturally there is no need for any additions other than what a crop may require for maximum growth. If a gardener is willing to accept whatever growth is achieved by compost alone, so be it for that gardener; the choice is up to the owner alone. Alas, I have said more than I intended again, for this I do apologize. Some enjoy growing with a compost ratio of 10:1, some higher. Some enjoy sheet composting, lasagna beds, trench composting, or traditional methods of piles/bins. There is no one way, right way, your way, or my way, IALBTC or humus anyway Blutranes

Do both. I don't recommend a tumbler, personally, unless you have no other options. A commercial tumbler is too expensive in my opinion. And I have not heard any good reviews from people that actually have them, including Franklin College who uses them in their compost system. They said last year that the tumblers were a terrible disappointment considering the piles that were waiting to be placed in the tumblers were decomposing faster than the material in the actual tumblers. Essentially, my understanding is that the claim on 21 days is based on having all the materials at once. Not based on the feed as you go systems that you would use for kitchen scraps. I have a family of 4 all week. 6 on weekends when my teenage son and daughter come over. My worms handle all the food waste, plus. Except those items I don't want them eating. Those go to the outside compost bin. Things like potato parts and onions, for example. I use compost from my hot bins that has gone past the thermophilic stage for bedding in my worm bins. I have 5 worm bins. The tiered one sucks in comparison. It is a 5 level worm factory. It does the job of composting (slower), but not with results that are to my liking. My homemade bins have me spoiled now. The castings in the tiered bins grow anaerobic easily as the moisture from the upper levels seeps down and keeps the lower levels from getting as much oxygen. Not the kind of bacteria you really want. It's not going to hurt your garden, but the fresh castings that have aerobic microbes thriving will better inoculate your garden with the beneficial bacteria annuals (most veges) love. I started out with approximately 1200 worms. 1000 were put in the worm factory. I ordered them online. As an experiment I started a homemade bin from a 14 gallon rubbermaid container and gathered worms from my uncle's horse manure spread. Long story short: My 200 free worms (if you don't count the labor of finding them) multiplied faster and eat more voraciously than the ones in the worm factory. Just to be sure it wasn't a matter of species difference, which there appeared to be none to me as they all had the same length and tell-tale yellow end (I'm no taxonomist), three months or so into it I made another homemade bin and used worms from the ones I originally ordered. In the homemade bin they did much better and have out paced those in the worm factory. I now have 4 homemade ones that could use dividing further while the worm factory still has yet to require dividing. One is specifically a breeding bin. My guess is that the free worms were more used to having to adapt because of the elemental issues they contend with that farmed worms are often protected from. That's just a guess, though. Don't be discouraged by slow eating. Worms will eat best if the temps are at 70 degrees or so. They will also breed best in that range. Want them to breed faster? Use cornmeal. I have read several times that this is a "misconception". I'm convinced by my own eyes otherwise. The worms you order are used to a certain diet (which usually contains cornmeal and other grains) and environment. Your best activity will actually come from their children as they will be born into this new environment and won't have to adapt at all, so the first goal should be to get the ones you bought to breed. That is, after all, why you purchase breeders. One last thing: Freeze your compostable kitchen scraps for worms. We put our scraps in a coffee can. Each day we put it in the freezer. The next day I take it out and let if thaw. The slow freezing breaks the cell walls of plants, which is why freezing your own food doesn't compare to the flash frozen food from the grocery. As it thaws, the tissue is softened for the worms and much of the excess moisture can be drained. This helps to control the ammonia produced by the decomposing food which can cause a bin to go "sour" (acidic).