reverse osmosis water purification system

===>>>

my gut tells me that this is for human consumption cleaning... and that it could probably be addressed with a much cheaper horticultural solution ... [or i am wrong]

in other words.. they are thinking a FILTER.. wouldnt a professional add something that counteracts the problem.. rather than filtering it out????

for e.g. i seem to remember a hosta friend with an iron issue [not sure on this.. bear with me] ... and the solution was not to remove the iron.. it was to add something to change the iron into a form that was irrelevant to the garden ... he used an injection system for such ... not a filter ... and it was relatively cheap.. compared to the alternative ...

i would start by calling the appropriate county water agency .. and discussing it with them.. all wells must be tested.. and records kept ... and you might be able to get a plethora of information from them..

i would also contact some local county water softening businesses.. and see if you cant get info from them ...

i realize that you are asking a soil question .. but it bothers me that we have a one man fluoride island ... and it just doesnt seem possible that no one else in the area has these problems .... and being a client.. and presumably local to you .. that you never heard of this before ...

i am not enough of a scientist.. to google this all for you ...

and i presume you have ruled out all other possibilities regarding plant damage ....

ken

Ken, he's a client with two homes as have most of my customers (or 3 or 4). I'm in NY and never encountered the fluoride issue before. I've already suggested he contact his county board of health to hook up with an environmental hazard expert and also that he do a soil test for fluoride if that's possible (I would guess it is). What I was hoping for here is the benefit of personal experience from a tree care giver. It is just one venue of several I'm using to get info.

Geez, he should be more concerned with symptoms of chronic toxicity.....or switch to bottled water.

In horticulture, the damage is primarily due to the accumulation of fluoride salts in the soil caused by long-term irrigation (among other things). Fluoride ions are NOT 'volatilized' when you water your lawn. Once irrigation ceases, natural precipitation will eventually leach the salts away (takes longer drier climates).

As for water treatment, your options are limited and rather expensive, especially when your intent is to treat water for irrigation use. I would include a large cistern in your costing so you can get away with a smaller capacity residential treatment system.

I've never quite understood the reasoning behind fluoride in tap water at all. After all it is consumed into your body when you drink it as opposed to toothpaste that you put on your teeth. I highly doubt that fluoride in tap water does much at all....

"I highly doubt that fluoride in tap water does much at all...."

I'm no expert on it, but from what I've heard (mostly from multiple dentists), the evidence STRONGLY indicates a SIGNIFICANT positive impact from the addition of fluoride to water.

From Wikipedia..."Water fluoridation prevents cavities in both children and adults, with studies estimating an 18-40% reduction in cavities when water fluoridation is used by children who already have access to toothpaste and other sources of fluoride."
and
"Drinking water is typically the largest source (of fluoride)...(and) has substantial advantages (over other sources of fluoridation), especially for subgroups at high risk."

Sorry, Harvestman, I know this isn't helping you with the tree problem...

Here is a link that might be useful: Widipedia on Water Fluoridation

Brandon,

Sorry but Wikipedia is not that reliable.

Dentists wouldn't know it if it hits their face. That's what they learn in college. Big difference.

I'm willing to bet that widespread vitamin D deficiency played a much bigger role....

Here is a link that might be useful: Vitamin D and teeth

Lou, while I agree that Wikipedia is often not the greatest source of info, the information I presented seems to agree with the vast majority of opinion on the subject from what I've seen. It seems to me that you may be headed down the conspiratorial rabbit hole, and I'm stopping here so as not to further dilute Harvestman's thread.

Brandon, conspiratorial rabbit hole? I provided all the information. You didn't. It's backward.

No, Lou, because you provide a link to one source, which still doesn't really in any way support your unorthodox view, that doesn't mean the viewpoint of the majority becomes less proved or deserves less respect. Unfortunately, in our society today, there is a group of people that seems to be going more and more in that direction. They even say things like "we shouldn't put much faith in science." That the kind of psychotic thinking that seems to be weighing heavily on our society today. You have a pretty steep hill to climb to prove that fluoridated water is not useful, but, I won't stand in your way. I'm only pointing you in the direction of the big hill and away from the rabbit hole.

To get us back on topic, do you have anything to add about what the thread is actually about????
____________________________________

Harvestman, you've probably already considered this, but have you contacted the local extension office to see if they have any reports of similar problems? Sometimes their expertise can vary from office to office and from subject to subject, but it might be worth a try.

Also, Harvestman, you mentioned that you suspected that the damage was most likely from volatilized fluoride and not directly from trees taking it up in the water. I'm curious as to how you arrived at that theory. I'm not sure it will lead to anything, but it just seems to pop up as a possible avenue to explore.

I've been concerned about this issue in a few cases before, but have never really looked into it much. Now seems like as good a time as ever to try to learn more.

Lou, how many articles, and I am talking published peer reviewed articles published in medical/dental journals, would you like me to link you to or scan/email and send your way? The fluoride in the drinking water actually has a dual purpose. It not only provides a Fluoride wash directly to the teeth where fluorohydroxyapatite is incorporated into the enamel matrix, it also is absorbed by the body and makes developing teeth take up this same formation and become extremely resistant to bacterial decay and attack from acidic solutions like pop and coffee once they errupt. The same tooth buds that form primary teeth also form the permanent teeth and basically once the tooth buds begin forming teeth a couple of months after conception, they do not slow down until root apex is formation of the permanent teeth is complete some time in the teenage years. You can see how the body absorbing fluoride (in the correct dose) throughout childhood and into adolescence can make a dramatic impact on the carcinogenicity of the permanent dentition.

John

Folks, if you want to discuss the efficacy and politics of water fluoridation, please start your own thread. This is well water I'm discussing, so the issue isn't even related in the slightest way. Sigh.

Brandon, the only reason I was looking at volatilization as the cause was that in the Lyons, Sinclair book on pathogens it was the only source of fluoride damage to trees mentioned, and I've been unable to find mention of damage to trees derived from irrigation water. That's one reason I posted this- I assume this can't be a unique situation and was hoping someone either had read about similar circumstances or, even better, had direct experience with the issue.

Snives, what causes fluoride to volatilize if sunlight can't cause it?

Sorry to get off topic above... public ignorance to some things when a mountain of evidence is available is depressing...

As to your situation, I do not have any experience like others on here but it seems to me the logical thing would be to take soil samples nearby that are NOT irrigated from the water source and compare those results to soil that IS irrigated and see if the Fluoride concentration is significantly greater. If the native soil does have very high levels of Fluoride then one of the treatments listed above may or may not even help. I wonder if some kind of rain barrel/water collection and storage like they do on the west coast would make a difference? There are some pretty incredible things you can do with buried water drums and pumps that only use mother nature's rain for the water source. I saw this on a show on TLC a while back. Of course deep pockets helps here, but that seems to be what you are working with anyway...

If it is a well water source problem and not a soil source then the rain barrel/drum storage option might help. I think the way I wrote the original is confusing.

Jon, that's a great suggestion about separate soil tests. The cistern is a wonderful idea also, but one which occured to me initially and the idea already has been forwarded to the client. That was a no brainer for me because my home came equipped with a cistern system. The original owners were from Greece.

Two things: One volatilization of Fluorine gas is possible like Chlorine gas. HOWEVER Fluorine is a much more reactive material than Chlorine an will not exist in nature. In nature and in public drinking water system the Fluorine exist as salts that can not be volatilized.

Two: If Fluoride compounds exist in the ground water and in the soil the trees will have a natural tolerance to that level of Fluoride and would thrive, else everything would be died from excess Fluoride. (If in the soil they will leach into the ground water and visa versa)

Finally: In the middle of the 1900's there was much experimentation with the use of Fluoride in the water systems. Don't Google looking for the research papers on the use and benefits of Fluoridation of he water systems, go to the library and find the copies of the actual research papers. Googling will only turn up recent propaganda on the effects of Fluoridation.

Thanks, knut.

harvestman, you used the words, "symptoms of fluoride damage". What else could cause such symptoms?

Have you considered sending samples for tissue tests?

rhizo, you make a good point. presume nothing in diagnosis.

Lots of homework and testing to be done providing answers to this question. My thoughts turned to commercial fertilizers and their affect on plant fluoride absorption. Strongly suggest searching 'phosphate and fluoride absorption in plants'. Spend some serious time reading through all those pages of research. Information we all need related to this topic and broader aspects of the subject.

Fluoride damage is, with the exception of the presence of large industrial plants of specific industries nearby, nearly always a diagnosis of exclusion. Meaning, once you have excluded all other possibilities, it remains one you can't exclude.

So is this a conclusion based on water sample tests? Or a diagnosis based on plant tissue tests?

There are a number of other issues that have similar symptoms (nutrient deficiency, for example). If I'm in the woods in VA and I hear hoofbeats...I have to assume that zebras aren't running wild in the Shenandoah.

There are specific target levels of fluoride in plant tissues that lead to such a diagnosis, but this is highly subject to fluctuation, not only between various species, but also between individual of a population within the same species. Sinclair and Lyons lay out the criteria quite succinctly, but there aren't clear cut lines where this rate is damaging and this rate is safe. (But you knew that if you have cited them.) Apparently, certain species are able to accumulate fluoride in the plant from the soil (camellia), but you are correct in your surmise: volitization is a much more likely culprit.

Thanks, Strob. The guess is based on high rates of fluoride in the water- I wouldn't quite call it a diagnosis.

My chemistry may be a bit rusty but I can't see how 'volatization' of fluoride ions from water is even possible under normal conditions?
The element Fluorine in well water will have an inorganic mineral source and will undergo almost complete hydrolysis into fluoride (F-) where it stays until the water is gone forming a salt with whatever cation is available (probably calcium).
To get HF or F2 you need to fire up some industrial chemistry.

Smivies, I never took any chemistry beyond what's involved in standard botany classes but what you are saying is pretty much what I'm getting here. Any damage would probably have to be from the soil and the client says that all his Japanese maples and conifers die on him. Seems a bit serious to be from the fluoride in soil or I suspect someone would have contacted me with a similar problem. I'm going to look just a bit further and then suggest that we look elsewhere for the source of his problem. I have the contact info for the local cooperative extension there and can only hope that they might be helpful.

harvestman;

Is your client using this well for potable water?

Also, do you know what the actual amount of Fl is in parts per million(PPM)?

4.49 mg/L is the only measurement he had for me.

Thanks.

The maximum level for Fl in potable water is 4.0ppm; parts per million (ppm) and milligrams per Liter (mg/L) is the same thing. It's just barely over the limit for human consumption so I'm not sure if it would be harmful to plants.

If he is getting his potable water from a water works he may be able to get an irrigation meter.