I was going to suggest Zephie, but how about a hybrid musk? I'm sure things grow larger in your warm climate, but Cornelia might be pretty. What color are you looking for? I've read that Gartendirecktor Otto Linne is thornless, but others have said not. I've seen a photo of Otto grown as a climber in an older magazine. It seemed to grow staight up the arbor. Pale pink all the way through darker pink and small blossoms...I think about one inch across. Beautiful, but in my zone, it might reach five feet :)

Hi KMama,

A Cornelia like the one I have might be too large and too wide for your spot. Climbing Pinkie might be too, if happy there. Of course, you'd be pulling those long horizontal canes into an uprught position, but there are an awfully lot of them for that 4' width on my Cornelia. I'm thinking that the "fan out" idea might be somewhat inconsistent with the narrowness of your spot? But most of the hybrid musks do fan out, and a few are thornless. Be sure that wherever you buy from makes the thornless/low thorns claim; not all cultivars of the same variety are actually the same.

Lyda Rose or Mortimer Sackler might work. My Mortimer Sackler does have a few small canes in its second year here now, but it's definitely lower in thorns than most roses. Lyda Rose might take a few years to get there, but she can climb if you train her. Though Mortimer Sackler does have some shade tolerance, Lyda Rose has more and might come closer to being a sure thing. People who have that one like it quite well.

Best wishes,
Mary

Wow, thank you all so much for the ideas. The Otto and the Mortimer Sackler look lovely, so I'll investigate those.

I have a question for you experts on how roses grow on the vines... (which I guess in rose-speak are called canes.)

When I say a climber, I originally (before the you tube video on pruning climbers) thought it meant the cane went straight up and in all directions and that roses grew off the sides even on the parts of the cane that were standing straight up and down... but my understanding of Zephy (and I don't know if it applies to all climbing roses) is that in order for the canes to produce flowers they have to be horizontal, hence having to train or tie them to something.

Is that true for all climbing roses or just zephy?

I guess that's what I mean by "upright" growth, I mean is there something that has nice arching or vertical canes hat will produce flowers without the vine itself being horizontal. I am not familiar enough with the many rose categories.

For example, if I could find a kind of climber that bore flowers on the vertical canes, that would be where I would want to look first. (I'm not interested in trying to tie zephy or pinky to a 4' x 6' trellis.) And if such a flower doesn't exist, then I would ask if there is a flat-ish shrub that has that sort of spray/fan shape to it (rather than a big shrub full of branches coming out of the ground).

Hope that makes sense. For Otto and Mortimer, I'm going to try to figure out their growth pattern and see if they'll work for me.

I'm also not opposed to pinkie, if I thought that it would bear roses on the upright portions of the canes. (I have a different spot, 3 feet wide but taller, that I could put that.) Does anyone know if pinkie has to be horizontal to bloom?

And someone asked about color... my preferences are the darker pinks... but at this point if I found a pastel pink I'd be fine with that.

I'd even consider one of the little mini roses like the lady banks if I could find something like that in a pink. I am looking for a shot of color in my yard, so the whites are out for this spot.

Thanks again. What a helpful bunch of folks you all are!
-kmama

kmama, I have Cl. Pinkie and it does have thorns and I believe will also grow much too wide for your area. Mine is still quite young and is already five feet across and five feet tall. It will easily double in size before it's done. I'm growing Charmian, an older Austin rose from Vintage Gardens, as a short grower against my dining room wall. The own-root Austins don't grow as vigorously as the grafted ones, and I expect this rose to flower all over, not just at the top. It's so small I can't yet tell how it is in the thorn department, but it's supposed to be very fragrant, with dark pink flowers.

Ingrid

Uh, my "Climbing Pink Eden" is not much thornier than my Zephie...It's a great blooming machine, yet tame growth..

I haven't had any experience of these, but have you thought of a weeping standard? They're grafted on a long stem about 1.5m long and the plant actually forms an umbrella shape, that might work well, since it will have flowers above that height and not bother the kids. I've seen some groundcover roses which are grafted this way and look fantastic, they literally smother the plant and bloom continuously.
Sanju

'Renae' if you can find it. It's fragrant, too.

Although this is not an Old Garden Rose or Antique...it has an older look about it, and it may work for you: Nahema.

Robert

Most roses bloom from growth produced from the top two or three buds at the end of the cane. If a rose sends cane eight or ten or twelve feet up in the air, most of the bloom will be way over your head, unless you fan out the canes or train them horizontally. As Paul Zimmerman says on his videos, once you get a cane about 45 degrees, lower lateral buds start to break and bloom.

Some roses bloom from lower lateral buds no matter what. Hybrid musks and noisettes, in particular, seem to do that in my experience.

I'm with Jeri - I absolutely discourage people from weaving canes in and out of fences and trellises, or around supports, which is one of the few places where I disagree with Paul Z. I tie canes on one side. You can get that looping effect, though, just making swooping shapes back and forth, which he shows, too. I did more of that this year and am looking forward to the results.

I'm also with Jeri in thinking you need a tall, narrow rose, not a climber. There aren't many truly mannerly climbers, although I do have one, Narrow Waters (a noisette), that has stayed neatly on one side of an eight x four foot archway (and which blooms on lower buds, too - and is fragrant - a terrific rose).

I'm thinking you need more of a pillar rose, than a climber. Many of the Bourbons and Hybrid Perpetuals can be trained like that. I simply adore the Bourbon-Noisette roses, such as Mme Blanche Lafitte. Gloire des Rosomanes (Ragged Robin) could be trained that way, too. Fragrant, few thorns, blooms early, late and often - great rose.

If you are anywhere near Sacramento, come visit our garden, either during April 17th's Open Garden or another date (we are closed Wed and Thurs). You can see some of these roses for yourself, although we let them go big so you can't see how they can be restrained. I train my roses at home over tripods, along fences, over trellises - they can indeed be fit into smaller spaces, if you pick the right rose.
Anita

It occurs to me that I do know one climbing rose that is very very narrow and mannerly. We grow it on an arbor, and it grows straight up, setting blooms in sprays all the way up.
It is a continuous-bloomer, and like Anita's suggestion of 'Narrow Waters,' it is a Noisette -- a "found" rose: "Setzer Noisette." (But it is white)
It's not in commerce, but we will have some to sell at the Sacramento City Cemetery Open Garden.
And I would DEFINITELY second the suggestion of the beautiful, clear red, Gloire des Rosomanes.

Jeri

Perhaps a china rose which does not possess massive leafy vigour - mutabilis or bengal rose. Ghislaine de Feligonde is a smaller rambler. Blairii No.2 is a climbing bourbon, very lovely. also Madame Isaac Perriere.

Having once-upon-a-time self-pegged MIP, I can attest that she is far, far from thornless! I flinch at the very memory.

Jeri

OMGosh, so many lovely roses. I'm going to have to make more room for a couple of these. How to pick just one!

The Nahema is gorgeous.

CemeteryRose: Re the pillar rose, is that a particular type of rose, or just a variety that takes well to pillars. (Or is it a climber tied to a pillar?) Would the plant suffer at all if half of the plant (the side facing the house) always be completely shaded? I suppose if I could find a not-so-vigorous climber, I could manage enough skill to zig gag the plant (tied, not weaving in) to a trellis. I just was also hoping to have the metal trellis be not much bigger than 4' wide and about 5' tall.

I'm going to do some searches here at GW on Bay Area rose gardens that I can see some of these varieties. I'm going to try to get up to Vintage in May... I'm near Walnut Creek and the trip up to Sacramento might be too far.

Anyway, thank you all for helping me on this. I'm sure I'll be lurking and commenting here a lot more, now that I'm finally ready to start planting.

Cheers,
KMama

As HoovB mentioned, Renae might work, though if it's really happy you might need to do some cutting back. Also her seedling, Annie Laurie McDowell might be nice. They do have some shade tolerance, and perhaps might get by with what you'd have on the west side of your house

I don't know that Nur Mahal would work for climbing, but it seems to me that it might, and might also come closer to having the color impact you are looking for. It's low in thorns and does have shade tolerance--perhaps better than Renae?--though less than some other hybrid musks. Renae and Annie Laurie McDowell are heavy blooming machines, and might give more constant blooms than Nur Mahal, even in more shade than they might prefer.

Others with colors that might work, but that aren't close to being thornless: Wilhelm, Robin Hood, Heinrich Conrad Soth.

Best wishes,
Mary

I'd suggest cl. "Cramoisi Superieur" a graceful rosebush that bears red roses, because
China class rosebushes are slow to grow, and have fewer prickles in general than many other rose classes.
Berkeley Botanical Garden has a C.S. that they've kept at c. 7 feet tall by c. 3 and 1/2 feet wide, for as long as I can remember.
I love its scent which reminds me of Japanese cherry blossom incense and its' rebloom is rapid.
Photos may be seen at helpmefind.com/roses under their Search thingie.
vintagegardens.com is selling it this month and has a photo of it as well.
However, If you live within c. 15 miles of the coastline, or in a marine air flow valley, in Northern California I would suggest a Hybrid Musk, because China class rosebushes tend to get powdery mildew in cool coastal climates. "Cornelia" is my favorite pink Hybrid Musk and I found it was easy to espalier, we keep it at 6 feet tall by 7 feet wide, but you could espalier it and also peg the basal canes downwards towards the ground to keep it more narrow, and increase bloom production, and then just trim the laterals back every year or when deadheading. It has only a few large prickles on the lower part of the basal canes but not many, and a few smaller prickles on the side canes, more prickly than C.S. but not as prickly as most Hybrid Perpetual rosebushes.

Best wishes for choosing a rose that will make you happy,
Luxrosa

Maybe it's just my conditions, but the Pink Chinas do mildew here (you can depend upon it) but the red Chinas don't.

I remain dubious of the restricted size involved here, but Lux, Cornelia stays on the dainty side here (I think she'd like more water than she gets).

Kristi -- The Sacramento Cemetery is an easy day trip from Walnut Creek. I really recommend it.

Jeri

So far, one truly thornless rose I have is Mme. Berard. Even my Zephirine Drouhin has some thorns. Mme. Berard is beautiful, and strongly fragrant, but does have some mildew. It flowers off vertical canes too, which is great. I don't know how mannerly it is, because mine is still young.

Masha

campanula, I hope you'll have the opportunity some time to visit southern California and see Mutabilis, which could be the poster child for "massive leafy vigour". Mine grows in mostly shade and is a young plant but is at least ten feet wide and was almost ten feet tall before I trimmed it. The other roses you mention become equally massive here. They just love our weather!

Ingrid

Wow.... so many great suggestions. Making my list now. Thank you!

I've been to the Berkeley Botanical gardens a bunch of times and never noticed the specific roses (I wasn't in shopping mode)... I'll have to look again. Anyone know where that CS is? Is it up on that little lookout where there is a bench is and a little path around the roses?

I stumbled on a picture of "Le Vesuve" here http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0712502522178.html which is most definitely NOT thornless, but I liked the growth habit and the color. So I might also expand my search a little. If I want to keep a rose narrow and upright, is that just something I control with pruning, or is there a particular growth habit I need to be looking for.

Thanks!
-kmama

You can constantly chop away at a rose to fit it in a niche for which it wants to be too big.
But it is a pain for the gardener, and will inevitably make the rose weaker than it should be.
You're far wiser to look for a rose that has a narrow, upright HABIT by nature. If you do that, you can have a healthy rose, grown to its best advantage.

But, look -- Going back, and reading your initial post, am I correct in understanding that you have a space 2 ft. wide, and you want to put a rose there, and walk by it?
Because if that's your aim, I think you will be disappointed.
Any rose, even if it is rigidly espaliered, will stick out SOME. It has to do that, to bloom.

Jeri

Hey Jeri,
Thanks for your patience in answering my question fully.

Basically, along my house, I have a 2-3 foot border around the foundation of the house, at which point I have a lawn. In the spot where I'm talking about, I have this depth of about 2-3 feet I can play with, and a wall space of roughly 4 ish feet wide and up to about 6' tall. If it hangs out too far over the lawn, it might get too wet from the sprinklers (at least the lower parts of the rose)

That's why I was thinking of some sort of climber or upright plant. But, I don't want a vigorous climber to go beyond about a 6' trellis, partly because I can't afford those humongous metal cattle panel trellises, but also from a maintenance standpoint I don't want to be pruning a ginormous rambler that is up on the eaves of the house at 14' above my head.

I also don't think I know enough about the rose options out there to know if it's even do-able given I want thornless, rebloomer, with a deep cerise/dark pink color. Most of the roses I love from Vintage have huge gnarly bird-beak sized thorns, and unfortunately it's the area where my kids play so that's just out of the question.

I think I'm going to go up to Vintage, and possibly to SJ, and maybe even up to Sacramento, so I can familiarize myself with the roses before I jump the gun.

I'm starting to love so many of these roses that I am thinking of putting a second on the other side of my yard near a porch, and trying to figure out where else I can put some of the lovely little compact bushes. A couple years ago I had a Rose de Rescht but it got hurt in a remodel (builders dropped a bunch of concrete on it). That was a cute little rose.

Anyway, enjoy your Easter. And thanks for all the help.

I have started compiling a list of possible options, so at least I'm headed in the right direction.

-kmama

Yes, in coastal California ZD is a vigorous grower, but it is also a vigorous mildewer. I grew it against my old house which was in a sunny location right across from the ocean in Venice Beach, and ZD was covered in powdery mildew ---- yes, it was vigorous, and yes, it did bloom, but it was digusting due to how much PM it atttracted -- it was never clean. I'd look for another climber. I think Jeri is probably the resident wise woman for coastal California rosarians, so I'd follow her suggestions. Right now I am trying out the older English rose Lucetta as a climber. I've seen it grow to nearly 14 ft in some southern California gardens, and it used to be grown as a pillar rose at the Huntington Gardens in Pasadena. I've got one, tho still a baby, and it seems quite healthy in my present garden which is still in the coastal zone, altho on the eastern periphery. I've seen Felica, a Hybrid Musk, grown as a fan on a wall, and it's quite pretty. That might work for your wall.

I think I'm going to go up to Vintage, and possibly to SJ, and maybe even up to Sacramento, so I can familiarize myself with the roses before I jump the gun.

*** GOOD THINKING!
Do all of the above.

Remember that Vintage is not "visitable" presently, though they have an "Open Garden" in May (other than the weekend of the Celebration of Old Roses in El Cerrito).
I know for certain that, if I had seen more of what mature plants looked like, before we began planting, we'd have made fewer errors.
Live and learn.
You're being wise.

Jeri

Hey Jeri,
Thanks. Yeah, I have little margin for error because most of the rest of my garden is already planted (raised veggie beds and a large lawn) and I have very little space along the foundation for "pretty" stuff. In fact, I saw a term in another GW post calling this space a "foundation planting"... if that makes more sense for the space I'm working within. (But I don't want to cloak my house in rose vines, either, otherwise Zephy would be a shoe-in.)

I definitely will go to Vintage in May when Gregg has it open. My mom has been nagging me for years to go up there but never made it. I never really understand her obsession with the OGR and now I GET IT.

Re: my climate, I'm not really coastal. I'm inland, near Walnut Creek/Lafayette and my summers are hot... and winters fairly cold. And with the western/southwestern exposure, it's hot from noon to sunset starting about April through October.

I've started to narrow my list below but want to try to go see if Vintage or SJ or the Botanical Garden or even Berkeley Rose Garden has any of these so I can see what their growth habit is. That might help me see whether any of these will work as a "foundation planting" in my space. As you can see I prefer the more cerise/pinks.

-Nur Mahal
-Reine des Violettes
-Gartendirector Otto Linne
-Pink Gruss an Aachen
-Heritage
-Renae
-Mortimer Sackler
-Kathleen Harrop
-Nahema
-Grandmother's Hat
-Craimoisi Superieur

Lots more googling to do!

Have a nice holiday weekend,
KMama

I can tell you a few things about SOME of those roses. Not all.

REINE DES VIOLETTES is a beauty, and should do well for you, IF your conditions are not too alkaline. It likes slightly acidic conditions, as a camellia or azalea might. My conditions are horridly alkaline, so I give such roses a dose of soil sulfur, periodically, to acidify their conditions.

PINK GRUSS AN AACHEN is easy. :-)

HERITAGE -- Put it where you won't have to prune it a bunch. Think of it as a sort of Hybrid Musk. Flowers last well on the bush, but about a nanosecond in a vase, so it's not for cut flowers. It was disease-resistant here.

RENAE -- A big climber, but a wonderful, wonderful one. It has no negatives, IMHO.

GRANDMOTHER'S HAT -- Should be bulletproof for you, and continuous-blooming. (It CAN blackspot when conditions are extreme, but recovers quickly.)

CRAMOISI SUPERIEUR -- I really love all of the red Chinas, but this one is particularly beautiful. In a difficult spot, here, it has no disease, and blooms continuously.

Jeri

My Aunt lives in Lafayette and grows Belle Portuguase up the side of her house. It is almost 40' tall. She lives on a hill and this has been the only plant to ever survive this location. It has to die for blooms, but it only blooms in the spring. If you want a tall climber, consider this rose.

I do think people worry too much about thorns. And unless they're completely prickle-free, I find if I'm careless I still get scratched even by low-prickle roses (in fact, I think it happens more often on the ones with few prickles because the paucity of sharp edges tends to lull one into carelessness).

Is there a really compelling reason the rose needs to be "thornless?" Unless you have a parade of ladies wearing blowsy chiffon dresses going by, most people easily avoid being snagged. So, perhaps consider some with a few more prickles?

Other than that, Jeri's list is great for up here. The regular Gruss an Aachen is great, as is the climbing form (fantastic as a climber!).

--Ron

Yes, my compelling reason is my two small children who play in this area (chase, tag, hide and seek, etc) so I'm inclined to have a less thorny option. I have a narrow yard, and I need to maximize the pretty stuff with a functional and safe play area for them. Now I just need to figure out who's growing what... I can't wait to start going to the rose gardens to get ideas. I totally GET why my mom is so osbsessed with OGRs. So many choices, so little room to grow them. -k

Well, FWIW, a number of years ago, I consulted briefly on rose choices for a local botanical garden.

They were selecting roses for a "Children's Garden."
I asked them if they were concerned about prickles, and the lady said:

"We considered this, and decided in the end that it is valuable for children to learn that some plants have thorns."

I liked that.

Jeri

You might consider Climbing Pinkie. I have one wound around a pillar in front of my horse barn - wonderful bloomer, little/no thorns, pliable canes. Pretty pink. Love this one....

Thorns--I always just accepted that -if you want roses, you have to deal with thorns. Well, there are thorns, and there are THORNS. The one that comes to mind is "The Cottage Rose" This plant was so thorny, it made the weedy blackberry plants seem tame. CR was impossible to prune or shape. Could not even weed under it. I got rid of it because of the thorns. None of my other roses come close to being this difficult. So now thornyness is a consideration for me.

Peggy Martin is a gret climber without thorns. So is Veilchenblau. Craimoisi Superieur is fairly thorny, but really pretty, just a touch of mildew on dry winter days. A family in Baton Rouge has a Bella Portuguase. It's a beautiful sight to see. Never seem to find one in stock on line. Felicity, Danae, and Prosperity are good hybrid musk choices. Don Juan is one of my favorite reds.

Have you thought of rooting a cane of your mother's plant? Most plants that make woody stems will root from the stem/cane. Bend a flexible branch or cane to the ground and cover it with good soil, and weigh it with a rock or pin it down somehow. Bend the rest of the cane upwards and prop it with a sturdy forked twig. Keep the soil on the buried part moist but not soggy for a few weeks.

The places in the plant that have the most root hormone naturally are the stem joints, where the leaves grow from. When the joint is placed on or under the ground, it stimulates roots to form instead of leaves. It's how plants like wild roses and blackberries "walk," in nature.

If you do this with a rose, you get an own-root plant instead of a graft, of course. You can also take cuttings from roses and use rooting hormone. You would need to be a little patient--you are not getting a shrub size plant this way, just a twig or single cane! But you would be getting the same thing your mother has, which you seem to be interested in.

Good luck!

I have decided to replace my Zephrin Drouhin for the reasons stated by Mudbird. I have continued to give her a pass every year because I love her scent and flower color. But the rest of her is a mildewed mess and this year she looks worse than ever. She has never been a particularly profligate bloomer anyway. I have been thinking about Reine des Violettes. Would this be trading in one mildewed mess for another? What do you think, Jeri? I am directly on the coast within a couple of miles of the ocean. Zeffy is in a bed between two Rose de Reschts (love LOVE them!) so I would hope Reine des Violettes would work colorwise.

This is Mortimer Sackler growing up a post on the left, on my old pergola.
As you can see, it is very slim growing. It flowered all the time in summer and autumn. Thornless and beautifully perfumed as well.
In my old garden which was a damp zone 8/9, it was no trouble at all.
Daisy

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